God & godless alike.... choose respect first ?

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, VonNoble said:

So I am still working through the idea of instinctive responses being a choice.   

 

I suppose that an instinctive response doesn't always require a choice. If I were at a baseball game and through my peripheral vision saw a ball coming at my head, I'd instinctively duck, no time to consider my predicament and make a decision. But I think with most things, where we can assess a matter, a choice is always available, even if its a choice to remain neutral.

 

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

It is not the Bible verse that I found offensive, but your use of it.  It's an amazing skill you have -- to have God make your insults for you. 

 

I still don't get the insult? My point was that an indecisive person has a choice, even if its not choosing a direction because they don't have enough information to formulate an opinion and pick a direction. Nothing wrong with choosing to remain neutral because of insufficient data.. I often use bible verses to accentuate my point of view,  and I felt the one I chose fit the bill. While it may only be applicable to my particular faith, it was not intended to insult anyone. All it meant to me was that God doesn't accept people who are on the fence, they either believe or they don't.. Sorry you were offended by it

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

51 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I suppose that an instinctive response doesn't always require a choice. If I were at a baseball game and through my peripheral vision saw a ball coming at my head, I'd instinctively duck, no time to consider my predicament and make a decision. But I think with most things, where we can assess a matter, a choice is always available, even if its a choice to remain neutral.

 

 

I still don't get the insult? My point was that an indecisive person has a choice, even if its not choosing a direction because they don't have enough information to formulate an opinion and pick a direction. Nothing wrong with choosing to remain neutral because of insufficient data.. I often use bible verses to accentuate my point of view,  and I felt the one I chose fit the bill. While it may only be applicable to my particular faith, it was not intended to insult anyone. All it meant to me was that God doesn't accept people who are on the fence, they either believe or they don't.. Sorry you were offended by it

 

 

You told me that God spits out Agnostics.  Which part of this is not deeply offensive?  

 

 

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

I suppose that an instinctive response doesn't always require a choice. If I were at a baseball game and through my peripheral vision saw a ball coming at my head, I'd instinctively duck, no time to consider my predicament and make a decision. But I think with most things, where we can assess a matter, a choice is always available, even if its a choice to remain neutral.

Thanks for meeting me halfway.... 

I  processing with due diligence....

von 

[Rev. Calli]

9 hours ago, VonNoble said:

My symapthies re technical difficulties.  I am sure the admin folks can and will assist.

 

on looking at the bridge collapse in Florida...it seemed as if every person witnessing the event immediately left their car and start forward to help.   It looked like an automatic response.    

 

Possibly the instinctual response is more acute in some more than others?

 

Thanks for adding a consideration for us to mull over.     You might be right.

I always associated choice with thinking...processing...concluding..... then choosing.   But I never really studied if that was accurate.     

 

von

 

 

Greetings to you my brother,

 

One of the things I have become convinced about in my life is that for most, but not all people, acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, when presented with the right circumstances, are an automatic response.  As the Doctor in the great movie and novel, "Mr. Roberts" would say, it is a reflexive action much like the knee-jerk reflex.  

 

As to a person developing religious faith, I believe that frankly a lot of it (at least at first in our lives) is conditioned by how we are raised, both by our families of origin and the culture that we grow up in.  A child born of Islamic parents in a culture where Islam is the norm will more than likely be Moslem.  I grew up with Roman Catholic parents in a very Catholic community.  Of course, at least until I reached the age of reason, I was a devout RC.  It wasn't until I began to understand that there were other ways to understand God, and frankly when I began to experience abuse at the hands of a person who I had been taught to revere as a representative of God that I left the faith of my youth.

 

This was where free will, as I understand it, kicked in.  I actively wrestled with what I had been taught.  I questioned my beliefs and searched out answers that made sense to me, that resonated with my soul.  And truth to be told has been a continuous process  But I have come to a faith that for me is reasonable, but I do not say that it would be the same for anyone else.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

15 minutes ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

One of the things I have become convinced about in my life is that for most, but not all people, acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, when presented with the right circumstances, are an automatic response.  As the Doctor in the great movie and novel, "Mr. Roberts" would say, it is a reflexive action much like the knee-jerk reflex.  

 

As to a person developing religious faith, I believe that frankly a lot of it (at least at first in our lives) is conditioned by how we are raised, both by our families of origin and the culture that we grow up in.  A child born of Islamic parents in a culture where Islam is the norm will more than likely be Moslem.  I grew up with Roman Catholic parents in a very Catholic community.  Of course, at least until I reached the age of reason, I was a devout RC.  It wasn't until I began to understand that there were other ways to understand God, and frankly when I began to experience abuse at the hands of a person who I had been taught to revere as a representative of God that I left the faith of my youth.

 

This was where free will, as I understand it, kicked in.  I actively wrestled with what I had been taught.  I questioned my beliefs and searched out answers that made sense to me, that resonated with my soul.  And truth to be told has been a continuous process  But I have come to a faith that for me is reasonable, but I do not say that it would be the same for anyone else.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

I can seriously relate.  There were times in my life where I sat myself down and asked myself basic tings.  Like what I believed.  Not what I was supposed to believe -- but what I really believed.  Of course, we came up with different answers.  I'm amused.  Your journey has a familiar scent to it.  I know that scent.

 

 

 

 

[VonNoble]

23 minutes ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

One of the things I have become convinced about in my life is that for most, but not all people, acts of heroism and self-sacrifice, when presented with the right circumstances, are an automatic response.  As the Doctor in the great movie and novel, "Mr. Roberts" would say, it is a reflexive action much like the knee-jerk reflex.  

 

As to a person developing religious faith, I believe that frankly a lot of it (at least at first in our lives) is conditioned by how we are raised, both by our families of origin and the culture that we grow up in.  A child born of Islamic parents in a culture where Islam is the norm will more than likely be Moslem.  I grew up with Roman Catholic parents in a very Catholic community.  Of course, at least until I reached the age of reason, I was a devout RC.  It wasn't until I began to understand that there were other ways to understand God, and frankly when I began to experience abuse at the hands of a person who I had been taught to revere as a representative of God that I left the faith of my youth.

 

This was where free will, as I understand it, kicked in.  I actively wrestled with what I had been taught.  I questioned my beliefs and searched out answers that made sense to me, that resonated with my soul.  And truth to be told has been a continuous process  But I have come to a faith that for me is reasonable, but I do not say that it would be the same for anyone else.  

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

Hello Rev. Calli!

Thanks so much.....great to have you add your thoughts!    I think your observations are helpful.

 

It is a solid idea (thank you) that we all tend to begin our spiritual  search in ....close approximation to the ideas of our youth/family.

 

Too, it makes sense as we “mature” we adapt those ideas....adopting ones in keeping with our emerging world  view.

 

As we “put away” or amend our ideas.... we sometimes push hard on our comfort zone.  

 

In leaving Catholicism behind.... can you recollect... that process?    Was it a push-pull process making the shift?    Was it just seeing a new idea that was MORE comfortable?    Did it happen so gradually...you don’t have a moment of “change”.... it was just there.... no real moment of choice?

 

i think it would be helpful to understand to grasp how a long seated, deep belief is transformed....if you are willing to share that process.... thank you

 

 von

[VonNoble]

12 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I can seriously relate.  There were times in my life where I sat myself down and asked myself basic tings.  Like what I believed.  Not what I was supposed to believe -- but what I really believed.  Of course, we came up with different answers.  I'm amused.  Your journey has a familiar scent to it.  I know that scent.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the “ second” to Rev. Calli’s 

...again.... in that process.... following wherever what? ( curiosity) (facts) (inner peace) .... I don’t know the correct word to insert..... what was the motivation (maybe) ...to shift.... was it a long process?   Bolt of lightening knocking you off your horse.... is there a common thread....a define moment?

 

Thanks for sharing if you are willing to share it....

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

Thanks for the “ second” to Rev. Calli’s 

...again.... in that process.... following wherever what? ( curiosity) (facts) (inner peace) .... I don’t know the correct word to insert..... what was the motivation (maybe) ...to shift.... was it a long process?   Bolt of lightening knocking you off your horse.... is there a common thread....a define moment?

 

Thanks for sharing if you are willing to share it....

von

 

My religious development was not linear.  There was a lot of back and forth and sideways.  My family religion was Reform Jewish.  I started there.  Went through a period of Atheism.  God into Eastern Religion for a while.  When that wore off, I explored traditional Judaism.  I had a whole circle of Hassidic friends.  Overdosed on it.  Got serious about Reiki and Meditation which changed my sense of reality.  Did some serious Bible study -- did some serious prayer -- all very non-linear.........Was seriously into Pantheism for a while.  Some people on this board may remember my Pantheist days.

 

Now, I'm Agnostic.  I don't believe.  I don't disbelieve.  I don't know.  The older I get, the less certain I am of what I understand.  Of course, when I was young, I knew it all.  

[VonNoble]

51 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

My religious development was not linear.  There was a lot of back and forth and sideways.  My family religion was Reform Jewish.  I started there.  Went through a period of Atheism.  God into Eastern Religion for a while.  When that wore off, I explored traditional Judaism.  I had a whole circle of Hassidic friends.  Overdosed on it.  Got serious about Reiki and Meditation which changed my sense of reality.  Did some serious Bible study -- did some serious prayer -- all very non-linear.........Was seriously into Pantheism for a while.  Some people on this board may remember my Pantheist days.

 

Now, I'm Agnostic.  I don't believe.  I don't disbelieve.  I don't know.  The older I get, the less certain I am of what I understand.  Of course, when I was young, I knew it all.  

Wow!!!

 

Your  journey is far wider and deeper than many...

 

Without a doubt you have learned/earned some balance in life with all that.

 

i can relate.... the more I know ....the less certain I am ...often.

 

Thanks very much.

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

Wow!!!

 

Your  journey is far wider and deeper than many...

 

Without a doubt you have learned/earned some balance in life with all that.

 

i can relate.... the more I know ....the less certain I am ...often.

 

Thanks very much.

von

 

One more thought.  We keep getting told on this board that belief is a choice.  No.  It's not.  I was confronted by a real choice in life.  Did I want to live a lie?  Did I want to go on pretending to believe in God -- when clearly I did not?  Or did I want to live a life of honesty and integrity -- without a false front of pretend belief?  I went with integrity.  In the process, I lost my Hassidic friends.

 

History repeats.  When I couldn't sustain my Buddhist practice -- I lost those friends.

 

It was worth it.  I get to be me.  My life isn't much, but it's mine.  I'm not living a life of pious fraud.  That counts for a lot.  I think about these things when someone tells me that I should choose to believe.  You know.  Just in case that they're right.  What do I have to lose by believing?  I mean, besides my integrity.  My self respect.  My dignity.  My mind...........

 

Of course, when I refuse to be intimidated by threats of Hell fire -- and state why -- I'm accused of persecuting those wonderful people, who only want to save me.  What really gets me is when I'm told to pray.  Like I never did.  Or I'm told to read the Bible.  Please.  I know more Bible than most Christians.  

 

 

 

 

 

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

One more thought.  We keep getting told on this board that belief is a choice.  No.  It's not.  I was confronted by a real choice in life.  Did I want to live a lie?  Did I want to go on pretending to believe in God -- when clearly I did not?  Or did I want to live a life of honesty and integrity -- without a false front of pretend belief?  I went with integrity.  In the process, I lost my Hassidic friends.

 

History repeats.  When I couldn't sustain my Buddhist practice -- I lost those friends.

 

It was worth it.  I get to be me.  My life isn't much, but it's mine.  I'm not living a life of pious fraud.  That counts for a lot.  I think about these things when someone tells me that I should choose to believe.  You know.  Just in case that they're right.  What do I have to lose by believing?  I mean, besides my integrity.  My self respect.  My dignity.  My mind...........

 

Of course, when I refuse to be intimidated by threats of Hell fire -- and state why -- I'm accused of persecuting those wonderful people, who only want to save me.  What really gets me is when I'm told to pray.  Like I never did.  Or I'm told to read the Bible.  Please.  I know more Bible than most Christians.  

 

 

 

 

 

it is frustrating at times - in any situation when someone starts off with an immense pile of assumptions about any of us.    You have done well to be open to any and all "comers" to align ...with the best fit for you.  That is the ONLY thing any of us can do.   

 

I have attempted  to force answers...so many times there would be no way to assess it - but is a bunch.  The long term thorn on the road is those who believe they MUST bring in converts.   No matter which religion - they are just over the top aggressive about it.   They start with the fact that they have all the answers and need to school the uniformed  - - - - and it is wearing.  

 

The implication ...that I am less educated (not...not by a long shot most of the time) - less understanding of culture (eh no.....I have some decent credentials) - - I am ignorant of religion in general or of their religion in particular...that I am of course, unaware of the Scripture, or incapable of understanding it - all very wearing.   After a half century of hearing it - almost always the same tired and oft repeated stories......sooooooo canned....talking AT ME...and not listening TO ME.....- all of it feels VERY belittling.   It might help some - if they would ASK where I am at or how I got there before just assuming I am an ignorant lump awaiting their inspired message to assist me.   I surely do not have all the answers - obviously - I admit that often.  I also do not think that they cannot teach me.  I have found every person I meet teaches me something.  However often they are teaching one thing while saying another. 

 

All of it can be troubling and frustrating.   And on any given day....anyone not respected long enough gets weary of it. (That is true of believers and non-believers alike) - -  all of us appreciate respect.   Even when we don't deserve it.   We know that too and are doubly grateful when it is extended to us....in spite of our "off" moments.   

 

So you have my sympathy....and my respect.  

 

The last bit of hurt when one is being poked -  is one I have had barbed at me often.   The assumption that I have done nothing to try and fully embrace things...that I just am not listening..hostile...stubborn....dumber than a rock...all of it is difficult to tolerate...ending with I could just choose differently.    I can and will - I reckon if anyone has something new to offer.    Been there  - heard that - lots of times ....seems rather rude and abrupt and not my style but there are moments when i want to say it.    Then again, I TRY to remember - respect is the watch word.    Even though this is the 50th time I have had this conversation in my life - for them - if they are in earnest - for them - - - - - they have a need to try.    They have no clue that we have heard it - - - tried - found it lacking and moved on.....for them - they believe they are offering the best gift they have.   Respecting that is a pretty great thing to try and offer - I do my best to listen.    How I behave matters.   So I try to at least muster respect - - initially.   And hope like hell they will return the favor.   

 

So...you are not alone.   With the affronts ....or the frustration.    

MANY, many, MANY church going people (or religious people)  are not like that.  They work on themselves and while available to assist ...they do not push their views or agendas.    They are that quietly live a great example.    They do not insist that non-believers are just lazy and not too bright.   They do not weaponize their sacred texts.  Thankfully there are a host of great believers out there - that don't tell me or you to pray....they quietly pray for peace between people....all people....     

 

 So many of us have walked a million miles to get to this point.   And will likely continue (as you noted .....as Rev. Calli noted) - it is ongoing).....

 

And they  (the recruiter squads) ....they too may shift their beliefs over 50 or 60 years - it has been known to happen....once was this - now i am that..... 

 

Since I - like you - know I did not CHOOSE my current location "on this journey" - it  is where I just ended up as other things were removed.   I walked where the truth was leading with no agenda and no predetermined label in mind.  Thankfully I didn't even have the younger years - "gotta-be-this or that" - from the family.  They threw the door wide open at birth.  So life experience was the teacher.    My mother's only advise - - - if it brings you peace - you can trust it.    If it causes angst, doubt and fear - move away.  

 

 I have no idea if this is the end of the journey- - -- but you know for sure - honesty and integrity are keys worth hanging on to...so peace to you - you know more than most how precious that is....

 

von

 

[mererdog]

20 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You told me that God spits out Agnostics.  Which part of this is not deeply offensive?  

 

So, there are things called"ugly truths." They include phrases like "If you keep drinking like that, you're going to destroy your liver," "If you keep running around with all those guys, you're going to get a bad reputation," or "You hurt your grandmother's feelings when you talk like that." No one likes to be on the recieving end of them, but we often need to hear them.

What Dan said may not be true, but he believes it is. It represents as valid a cause/effect relationship in his mind as the notion that too much sugar will rot a kid's teeth. To him, it is not an insult, and not an attack- it is just the way things are.

When you say his words are offensive, you are saying that his beliefs are offensive. It may not be true, but you believe it is. You can no more choose not to see it as offensive than he can choose to see it as offensive. You are slaves to your preconceptions, with outside input your only hope of being freed.

 

Or, at least, I believe that to be true.

Edited March 23, 2018 by mererdog

[Rev. Calli]

13 hours ago, VonNoble said:

Hello Rev. Calli!

Thanks so much.....great to have you add your thoughts!    I think your observations are helpful.

 

It is a solid idea (thank you) that we all tend to begin our spiritual  search in ....close approximation to the ideas of our youth/family.

 

Too, it makes sense as we “mature” we adapt those ideas....adopting ones in keeping with our emerging world  view.

 

As we “put away” or amend our ideas.... we sometimes push hard on our comfort zone.  

 

In leaving Catholicism behind.... can you recollect... that process?    Was it a push-pull process making the shift?    Was it just seeing a new idea that was MORE comfortable?    Did it happen so gradually...you don’t have a moment of “change”.... it was just there.... no real moment of choice?

 

i think it would be helpful to understand to grasp how a long seated, deep belief is transformed....if you are willing to share that process.... thank you

 

 von

5

Greetings to you my brother,

 

For me, the outright rejection of the faith I had when I was a child occurred when I was about 13 years old.  As I stated before, I had grown up a very devoted Catholic in a town where Catholicism was the norm.  Out of a town of roughly 10,000 people, there were at the time (mid-1960's) five very large Catholic churches of which my parents belonged to the largest.  Both of my parents were disabled and unable to drive to or even get up the steps of the church without a lot of help from others.  But they made sure that other family members or neighbors got me to church every Sunday until I was old enough to walk there by myself.  I think at first it was their insistence on the importance of going to church and being a part of a faith community that fueled my first love of God and Christianity because I saw how important it was to my parents.  

 

It was during those first early years of my life that I began to experience the desire to become a priest.  Those of you who grew up in a Catholic tradition (especially if you are baby boomers) know how one of the things that you are indoctrinated  into is the idea of "vocation", that is, the belief that God is calling you into the religious life, either as a Priest or Religous brother if you are male, or a Nun if you are female.  As an 8 year old, I joyfully embraced the idea of one day becoming a priest, as did pretty much all of my friends.  The difference is that for me, that desire never went away.  

 

I probably would have become a priest early in my life, going from high school straight into seminary and the eventually the Catholic Priesthood, except for experiencing two devastating personal tragedies that caused me to question my beliefs and the church I had grown up loving.

 

Right about the time I was entering puberty, my brother (who had been given a medical discharge from the Navy), had come home to live with us until he could get a job and move out on his own.  Among his possessions was a brown paper bag, that he had very clearly marked "DO NOT TOUCH" and that he left on the top shelf of the closet in the bedroom we shared.  Naturally the very first chance I had, I got the bag down from the shelf and discovered his collection of porn.  I short order, I quickly discovered (and please don't think the less of me) the joys of self-love.  Of course being a good Catholic boy, one who really wanted to be a priest, I figured I really needed to confess this sin.  So that Saturday I went to church and confessed my sin to my favorite priest, the one who was serving as a mentor to me as I had begun to explore the possibilities of the priesthood.  Now until that point in my life, no matter what horrible crime I could have confessed to, the worst penance I had ever received was having to do a complete decade of the rosary.  Today however this not the case.  Father told me to wait in the back of the church, and that after the evening confessions where done, he would give me an appropriate penance, one that any boy who wanted to become a priest would have to endure if they really wanted to be able to enter the priesthood. 

 

When everybody else had left the building, Father took me down to the basement of the church.  To make a long story short, I was forced to submit to whipping, and then was raped, all the while being told that this is the punishment given to any boy wanting to become a priest who commits the sin of masturbation.  After it was over, Father told me that I would have to come to him for confession at least every two weeks and that I would have to endure this penance again if I continued in my sinful ways.  I was also told that I told anyone else of what was happening, I would never be allowed to enter the priesthood.  Indeed, I could even be excommunicated from the church for breaking the seal of confession.

 

Now I don't know what anyone else would have done, but at that time in my life, I believed completely in whatever a Priest would tell me, and I also was caught in the place in my sexual development that telling me to stop my solo sexual activities would have the same result as telling a hardcore heroin addict to give it up cold turkey.  So this went on for close to a year.
 

Earlier in this post, I had mentioned how both of my parents were disabled.  My father, who was a veteran of WWII having served in Burma and New Guiena, had come back from the war in pretty bad health.  Aside from Malaria, he also had what I believe now would have been diagnosed as PTSD.  He was able to hold a job, but having only a 10th-grade education his working life was pretty much devoted to doing manual labor.  Around the time I was born, he started having symptoms that at first had been diagnosed as MS.  He had to give up driving, but was still able to work, since we lived very close to the Oil Refinery he was employed at.  When I was 5 (and he was about 45), he had his first stroke.  This stroke left him unable to use his left leg, and he was no longer able to continue working.  Every year or so after that, he would have one major health issue after another and lose more and more of his physical abilities.  About a year after the abuse started by Father, my dad had another stroke, this one causing him to lose the use of his other leg.

The Sunday afternoon after my dad had been taken away to the hospital (this was a few days after the stroke) my mother told me that dad would no longer be able to use what had been his good leg, and that now, instead of being able to get along on crutches and the use of a leg brace, he would pretty much be confined to a wheelchair.  At this point, I lost it.  I ran into my room, slamming the bedroom door (inadvertently causing the lock to engage and jam up) and sobbed my heart out.   I couldn't believe that God I had been taught was a loving God could keep messing with my dad this way.  What could he possibly have done to deserve all this misery?  And me, what was I doing that was so wrong and so awful that had I had to accept being beaten and...well, you know.  There had to be something wrong, somehow I wasn't getting the right message.  

 

All this time my mother was standing at the door, pleading with me to unlock it and let her in.  I absolutely refused to answer her.  My brother tried, and I told him to get the hell out.  Finally, my mom called the rectory and asked for Father to come and talk to me.  So there I was, sobbing on my bed, not understanding why all this was happening, and the one man who I had trusted, who I had loved, and who had betrayed me and abused my love and trust stood outside my door and told me to accept God's will. This was the very first time in my life that I told another human being, in fact shouted at him multiple times, to "get the F (insert your favorite F word here) out.  Over and over again until he finally left the house.  Eventually, my brother kicked in the door, and they got me to the hospital where with the help of a good strong sedative I finally calmed down.  But I never set foot in that church again or spoke of what had been happening there.  

 

I didn't give up my belief in God.  That has never every left.  But I did give up the simple faith of my childhood.  I had learned that just because someone says something from a pulpit,  or orders you to do something under the guise of being a representative of God, does not mean that they have to be believed or obeyed.  And I learned that there are no simple answers to the hard questions we struggle with in life.   My dad was a good guy, why did he have to suffer so much?  I was a good kid, not doing anything worse than most of my friends, why did God require me to submit to such degradation?  

 

For a few years, I stayed away from any church.  But I did read anything I could get my hands on about other faith systems.  I studied Islam ( what little was available in my local library at the time).  Buddism, Hindi, I became very familiar with the Bahi faith (which had one of the major temples just a few miles from my home).  I kept searching, trying to find what I thought of as the time as the true faith.  One that would answer all my questions, all my doubts.  One that I would be able to fully embrace.

 

My good fortune, (or if this word does not offend anyone) my salvation, was that I met my future wife during this time.  When we started dating (both of us were sophomores in Highschool) she was an active member of her churches MYF (Methodist Youth Fellowship).  Being the good boyfriend that I was, I started to go to her youth group functions with her.  I began to discuss matters of faith with her pastor, who introduced me, very gently, to a way different understanding of Christ and the church then I had ever experienced.  The nature of Grace (being God's unearned, unmerited, undeserved total love for each of us), salvation by faith alone, the priesthood of all believers, these were things that I had never been taught in Catechism class.  Don't get me wrong, I didn't rush right in and join the church.  It wasn't a burning bush moment.  But it did get me to start to rethink my relationship to Christianity, to see that perhaps I was called to be part of a church again.  That perhaps, Christianity was right for me, but that I had at first experienced some distorted teachings.

 

A few years after high school, Terri and I wound up living in Milwaukee.  She was going to nursing school and I had started a job at a local brewery (lucky me huh).  We had separate apartments on different sides of town.  She was looking for a Methodist church to join in her neighborhood but didn't like the one by her apartment (which remarkably is the one I now preach at on a regular basis).  Two block from my apartment was a Methodist church that had a big movie marque at the front.  On it was always the title of that's weeks sermon, under which in big, bold letters stated: "Rev. Reisner Preaches!"  This was the mid 70's, the time when TV evangelists were a big thing.  Seeing that sign every day as I went to work, I thought that this guy was probably a bush league preacher, and that it may be fun to go watch him, so I invited Terri to try out that church, and said that I would even go with her (again thinking it would be good for a laugh).

 

That churched changed my life completely.  Starting from what Terri's youth pastor had first shared with me, I began to experience what God's grace really means.  I learned what it means to be accepted for him I am, faults and failings included, as a Child of God, loved and cherished, but also challenged to grow and become more.  I learned that it was alright to question.  That at least in the United Methodist understanding, our faith is not based on edicts from a pulpit, or on one person's interpretation of Scripture.  Scripture is primary, but also human reason, our traditions, and our individual human experiences.  

 

And maybe most importantly, I began to experience Christ in a new way.  In my early experience, I saw Christ as someone who I had condemned to death on a cross for my sins.  I had been taught to feel guilty about being a faulty human being.  I wasn't even good enough to be able to pray to him, talk to him, directly.  Everything had to be done by going through others, Saints who had an overabundance of grace, the Virgin Mary, priests.  No, in the UMC I learned that I could have a personal relationship without all the go-betweens.  I learned that I was good enough, worthy enough, loved enough, to be able to go Christ as a friend.  I could tell him anything, ask him anything.  Like a friend, he would listen.  And like a friend, he would help.  But like a friend also, he wouldn't do everything for me.  Somethings I needed to do for myself.  He wasn't going to throw money in my lap, I had to go out and earn it.  He wasn't going to make my relationship with my wife always smooth going, we had to work on that together.  If I screwed up in life, I would have to suffer the consequences of my mistakes.  That was the nature of the world God had created.  And when I suffered because of the actions of others, I learned I could always turn to him for comfort, because he understood what it meant to suffer at the hands of other people, as he had done it himself.  

 

This all took some years.  It wasn't until about 11 years after we first became members of Central that I had the experience where everything really jelled for me, when I could with integrity really state that I was a Christian.  My wife, our two children, and I were at a Wednesday evening worship service at our church.  We were all sitting around a piano in the lounge area, and having a hymn sing.  In our hymnal is a song "Lord of the Dance" that is a very joyful song about the love of Christ.  As we sang, our children ( who were about 6 and 2, as well as some of the other little children of the church had gotten up and starting dancing spontaneously around the piano.  I thought how great it was that we were part of a church that was so loving, so accepting, that no one tried to get the children to sit down when they dancing with the pure joy of a child.  Then it dawned on me that as our church accepts our children, so too does God accept me as I am.  

 

After that moment of clarity, my life took a very different course.  Until then I had focused my life on obtaining material success.  After that, I wanted to share my faith with others.  The old desire that I had when I was a child to become a priest reasserted itself with a vengeance.  Naturally becoming a Catholic priest was out the question.  There was too much in that churches theology and in the way it is governed that I could not accept.  But I could easily see my self as a Pastor in the Methodist church.  The Wesleyan way of thinking, our understanding of Grace and free will, our openness to let the Holy Spirit move our church to reach out to the outcasts and misfits of the world, these are things I wanted to share.

 

It took a few years before circumstances allowed me to enter a seminary.  Seminary was another life-altering experience for me.  While I know that there are seminaries that are little better than schools of mind control, only teaching the party line as it were, and rejecting any ideas that fall outside the little box that they consider the fundamentals, Garrett followed their motto of "Faith Seeking Understanding,"  We were encouraged to study other understandings of Christianity, as well as other faith systems.  We had heated debates over what really constituted sin.  We debated vigorously over some the issues that still divide my denomination.  Some of these debates even caused me to reconsider some of my previously held beliefs.  For example, before I entered seminary, I was a staunch opponent of the very notion of Gays and Lesbians being able to wed, to say nothing of being ordained.  I did a complete 180 in my views over those issues, as I came to understand how very often we mistake what where cultural norms of centuries pass as being God's will for the present.  

 

Perhaps the most important thing I learned in seminary was that our God is a living God.  A God who continues to speak to humanity in new and exciting ways.  So many of my brothers and sisters in Christ take the view that God's revelation to the world ended when the Canon of Scripture was decided on by the early church founders.  I do not believe that to be so.  I have come to view God as a loving, caring parent, who as humanity has grown and matured, given us more freedom, more knowledge, and more responsibility, for growing to our potential, and caring for this world that we have been entrusted with.  

 

Of course, my faith experiences have been different than all of yours (thank God right).  My faith has been formed by many different factors, some way beyond my control, some that I choose for myself.  All I can say is my way, my faith, my relationship with God and how I choose to live it out is right for me.  When I preach to my congregation, when I write here or on other sites, when I talk to friends or people who come up to me, all I can do is share my story, hoping it will help them on their own faith journey.  It may not lead them to the same destination it led me.  But I can say with confidence that my journey has led me to a place where I have found the greatest joy and sense of purpose, and brought me to the deepest relationship with my Creator then I had ever imagined it could.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

 

[VonNoble]

Rev. Calli, 

Thank you for sharing that!

Very much!!

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, mererdog said:

So, there are things called"ugly truths." They include phrases like "If you keep drinking like that, you're going to destroy your liver," "If you keep running around with all those guys, you're going to get a bad reputation," or "You hurt your grandmother's feelings when you talk like that." No one likes to be on the recieving end of them, but we often need to hear them.

What Dan said may not be true, but he believes it is. It represents as valid a cause/effect relationship in his mind as the notion that too much sugar will rot a kid's teeth. To him, it is not an insult, and not an attack- it is just the way things are.

When you say his words are offensive, you are saying that his beliefs are offensive. It may not be true, but you believe it is. You can no more choose not to see it as offensive than he can choose to see it as offensive. You are slaves to your preconceptions, with outside input your only hope of being freed.

 

Or, at least, I believe that to be true.

 

So sad, too bad.  Dan must deal with his issues as I must deal with mine.  I'm done with taking pious crap off anybody.  Even the sincere.  The secular have rights.  I have rights.  You have rights.  You want to lose your rights?  Let the pious walk all over you -- out of respect for their sincerity.  

 

[VonNoble]

3 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

 

 

I entered this empty text box figuring it would trigger an alert to you .... but I am  far from a techno expert.... still a question if you will.  in keeping with this thread... in your view is “ belief” a matter of choice.    Is it “ gift from God”?

Is it a process that happens over time?

your thoughts?

von

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

I entered this empty text box figuring it would trigger an alert to you .... but I am  far from a techno expert.... still a question if you will.  in keeping with this thread... in your view is “ belief” a matter of choice.    Is it “ gift from God”?

Is it a process that happens over time?

your thoughts?

von

 

 

We are entering dangerous ground here.  My response is going to offend people.  That is sad.  Still, you did ask and I wish to be honest with my response.  No doubt, meredog will wish to call me on how I have responded to Dan, when I reacted badly to his statement on Agnostics.  Dan may also wish to respond with similar observations.  I expect it.  

 

I regard faith as something to be outgrown.  Like Santa.  Like an invisible friend.

 

When we are young children, it is common to have an invisible friend.  In a five year old this is cute.  In an adult -- not so much.  For an adult, God is that invisible friend.  What is even sadder is when that same adult has an invisible enemy.  That would be the Devil.  Most young children do not ask strangers to talk to their invisible friend -- or fear their invisible enemy.  The Evangelicals do.

 

Young children are trained by their parents and by society to believe in Santa.  What do we know about Santa?  He's an old man with a beard, who flies around the sky, in the company of magic flying creatures.  It sounds a lot like God and his angels.

 

What else do we know about Santa?  We know by singing his songs as children.

 

"He's making a list -- checking it twice -- he always knows who's naughty or nice ................"

 

"He knows when you are sleeping.  He knows when you're awake.  He knows when you've been bad or good............"

 

What does this give us?  The old man in the sky is watching everything we do.  He knows when we are sleeping and when we are active.  He keeps lists of the good and the bad.  He rewards the good and punishes the bad.  God in miniature.  Children outgrow Santa.  God lingers on in the adult mind.

 

No.  Faith is not a gift.  It is a developmental problem.  IMO.

 

[Rev. Calli]

3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

I entered this empty text box figuring it would trigger an alert to you .... but I am  far from a techno expert.... still a question if you will.  in keeping with this thread... in your view is “ belief” a matter of choice.    Is it “ gift from God”?

Is it a process that happens over time?

your thoughts?

von

 

Greetings to you my brother,

 

To be perfectly honest, I don't think that there is any good answer.  In standard Wesleyan Theology, we believe in a concept called prevenient  Grace.  To simplify the concept, it is a view that God works on each of us to give us a longing to be in a relationship with God, much as we very often long to be in a close relationship with others, be it parents, friends, lovers, etc.  It is something that is ingrained in the very fabric of our being.  The thing is, this can be a very subtle feeling in a person.  It's like a very small, fragile seed in that it doesn't grow unless it is nurtured.  It's not always recognizable for what it really is, in that people will often interpret that longing as a desire for something else entirely, and spend their lives trying to fill that need in other ways.  Sex, power, drugs, money, people will pursue these things believing that the longing they feel will be satisfied by using or obtaining these things, but yet they still feel empty or lost.  

 

Without the background to understand the nature of this longing for God, you cannot choose, as you don't know how to even begin to understand what you are longing for.  Even if you had grown up or in later years been exposed to people of faith, even if you had been thoroughly indoctrinated in a faith system, it is so very easy to misinterpret that longing for something to fill that need in your soul as a desire for something else.  

 

But still, for many of us, be it luck, or a gift of some special insight from God, when we are confronted with the choice, God on one hand, of the things of this world on the other, we choose faith, as that is where we find real happiness and soul satisfaction.  

 

So perhaps, it is a little of both.  It is God's offer to us, but up to us to recognize the offer and accept or reject as we see fit. 

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

 

[Dan56]

14 hours ago, mererdog said:

What Dan said may not be true, but he believes it is. It represents as valid a cause/effect relationship in his mind as the notion that too much sugar will rot a kid's teeth. To him, it is not an insult, and not an attack- it is just the way things are.

When you say his words are offensive, you are saying that his beliefs are offensive.

 

I actually don't believe Jonathan was offended at all, he just has a lot of disdain towards Christianity. He essentially wrote that he found my comment about the Christian God not accepting nonbelievers to be offensive. But surely he was already aware of that, its common knowledge. If a Muslim told me that Allah spits out Christians, it wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe Allah exist in the first place.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I actually don't believe Jonathan was offended at all, he just has a lot of disdain towards Christianity. He essentially wrote that he found my comment about the Christian God not accepting nonbelievers to be offensive. But surely he was already aware of that, its common knowledge. If a Muslim told me that Allah spits out Christians, it wouldn't bother me at all, because I don't believe Allah exist in the first place.

 

You are consistent.  How very predictable.  

 

    

 

Edited March 24, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl