Tripping over.......

[VonNoble]

While engaging in idle chatter with another student at the university I noticed a sort of pattern in his speech.

He is currently a criminal justice major having just left Political Science after two years in that field. 

 

I noticed he saw lots of things as either black or white...with very little space between the two.

That is not a judgement call as to the correctness of that line of thinking - just a summary of what I was hearing. 

 

 

I could not help listening to his various theories and opinions...I could not help but wonder when we draw lines in the 

sand....have we  just created one more thing to trip our own self up?

 

von

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, VonNoble said:

While engaging in idle chatter with another student at the university I noticed a sort of pattern in his speech.

He is currently a criminal justice major having just left Political Science after two years in that field. 

 

I noticed he saw lots of things as either black or white...with very little space between the two.

That is not a judgement call as to the correctness of that line of thinking - just a summary of what I was hearing. 

 

 

I could not help listening to his various theories and opinions...I could not help but wonder when we draw lines in the 

sand....have we  just created one more thing to trip our own self up?

 

von

 

 

It depends on things like plans and goals.  In a situation like college, you have to know where you are going and how you are going to get there.  Lines can be good.  They keep a train on it's tracks.  

 

Pick your metaphor.  An artist without lines loses perspective.       

Edited March 7, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, VonNoble said:

I noticed he saw lots of things as either black or white...with very little space between the two.

That is not a judgement call as to the correctness of that line of thinking - just a summary of what I was hearing. 

 

 

I could not help listening to his various theories and opinions...I could not help but wonder when we draw lines in the 

sand....have we  just created one more thing to trip our own self up?

 

von

 

 

Nothing wrong with absolutes.... Unless we are absolutely wrong.. Theories and opinions can be black and white, but they are generally formulated in a gray area. We all believe our opinions are correct, otherwise they wouldn't be our opinions. Incorrect opinions always belong to the other guy. Its no surprise that a criminal justice major thinks in terms of black and white, right and wrong, legal or illegal, the law is nonnegotiable. 

[Key]

15 hours ago, VonNoble said:

While engaging in idle chatter with another student at the university I noticed a sort of pattern in his speech.

He is currently a criminal justice major having just left Political Science after two years in that field. 

 

I noticed he saw lots of things as either black or white...with very little space between the two.

That is not a judgement call as to the correctness of that line of thinking - just a summary of what I was hearing. 

 

 

I could not help listening to his various theories and opinions...I could not help but wonder when we draw lines in the 

sand....have we  just created one more thing to trip our own self up?

 

von

 

Often people can have their thinking in black and white, then learn more about all the grey areas and how to deal with them when they actually go about experiencing their chosen profession or life.

Cops, for example, can become jaded in their view due to their experiences, but every once in awhile...something different surprises them.

Drawing lines can trip folks up, but only if they can't accept and adapt any grey matters that come up.

[mererdog]

You may be correct about the danger of drawing a line in the sand. At the same time, thinking things should never be looked at in terms of black and white requires looking at things in terms of black and white. Refusal to draw a line in the sand is just a way of drawing a line in the sand, you get me? And if there are lines that exist in the sand already, whether naturally or made by others, knowing they are there would help us avoid tripping over them.

Edited March 7, 2018 by mererdog

[mererdog]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

the law is nonnegotiable. 

In the US, the law is created through the negotiations of law makers,  then interpreted and applied by negotiations among judges and lawyers.

[VonNoble]

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It depends on things like plans and goals.  In a situation like college, you have to know where you are going and how you are going to get there.  Lines can be good.  They keep a train on it's tracks.  

 

Pick your metaphor.  An artist without lines loses perspective.       

I agree you should have long & short range targets.  Its hard to hit a target you cannot see.  Not impossible but less probable. 

That is the direction.

 

The planking on the track holds the rails in place....so we have values/ethics/yardsticks to address integrity and quality of life. 

So where does the black and white and gray figure into this?  The gravel between the ties. The packing of the ties?  Some place the planking wider apart - some closer together...some nailed in place (not allowing movement or expansion as easily?

How do you see the black/gray/white issue in terms of priorities/new info/ having conviction etc. ?

If I had an answer I would offer it - I am just filtering through the impressions of that student yesterday and reflecting on how he came across...how do any of us come across ...where would someone place me by MY conversation on the scale of a zillion shades of gray....where do I WANT To fall in that range - - - and how do we sort that out neatly and cleanly.....I dunno - just plumbing the best minds I know for this sort of thinking. 

 

von

[VonNoble]

2 hours ago, Key said:

Often people can have their thinking in black and white, then learn more about all the grey areas and how to deal with them when they actually go about experiencing their chosen profession or life.

Cops, for example, can become jaded in their view due to their experiences, but every once in awhile...something different surprises them.

Drawing lines can trip folks up, but only if they can't accept and adapt any grey matters that come up.

Yes, I agree.  That was my first thought too.    Drawing lines CAN trip us up...perhaps not the shade of the color but the rigidity of thought is the issue?    But as noted above - allowing it is a rigidity/flexibility issue....is there a safety zone (like dead center) where one aims to be (note target discussion and needing one to gain direction).....

 

If we aim to keep our view in the dead center range - for example - are we then viewed as lacking conviction....or being spineless or too wishy washy?   Is flexible enough to one - having no back bone to another?   

 

Just ruminating.....thx for joining me there....

von 

[VonNoble]

11 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Nothing wrong with absolutes.... Unless we are absolutely wrong.. Theories and opinions can be black and white, but they are generally formulated in a gray area. We all believe our opinions are correct, otherwise they wouldn't be our opinions. Incorrect opinions always belong to the other guy. Its no surprise that a criminal justice major thinks in terms of black and white, right and wrong, legal or illegal, the law is nonnegotiable. 

To an extent I would agree...but then again - there are things we sense without knowing that drive us (so I agree... we all dip into the gray area as we work our way to a solid conviction.)   Sometimes I form an opinion from an emotional stance.  I am NEVER neutral about my family and I know it.    I mostly can flex but not there.  It is not a reasonable issue for me.   If the life of those I love is in question  - I am not rational about spending money to make it right by them, for example.  I avoid debt of any kind as a general rule -  but I would sink into debt over my eyeballs - and above all reason if money would fix things.    So my opinion of me and my approach is that  my action are not at all correct. Judging me by my entire history of previous behavior over my entire life ...by my own sense of reason I am being a fool.  But that would not stop me.    

 

Sometimes in voting...my opinion is I am choosing the lesser of two evils.....and neither person is worth a hoot.  I vote anyway.   

Those voting of the other guy might be of the same opinion.  That would make neither of us correct other than we agreed voting is important. 

 

That gray area seems mushy.

The black-white option seems stuck in cement. 

 

I dunno - - - still working on it - but thanks for joining in - - - I'll eventually move out of the quagmire. 

 

von 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

32 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

I agree you should have long & short range targets.  Its hard to hit a target you cannot see.  Not impossible but less probable. 

That is the direction.

 

The planking on the track holds the rails in place....so we have values/ethics/yardsticks to address integrity and quality of life. 

So where does the black and white and gray figure into this?  The gravel between the ties. The packing of the ties?  Some place the planking wider apart - some closer together...some nailed in place (not allowing movement or expansion as easily?

How do you see the black/gray/white issue in terms of priorities/new info/ having conviction etc. ?

If I had an answer I would offer it - I am just filtering through the impressions of that student yesterday and reflecting on how he came across...how do any of us come across ...where would someone place me by MY conversation on the scale of a zillion shades of gray....where do I WANT To fall in that range - - - and how do we sort that out neatly and cleanly.....I dunno - just plumbing the best minds I know for this sort of thinking. 

 

von

 

You missed the word humor.  "Perspective" in a painting, is how some things are made to seem farther away or closer.   

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, mererdog said:

In the US, the law is created through the negotiations of law makers,  then interpreted and applied by negotiations among judges and lawyers.

 

True... But once a law is in effect, its generally black and white, it is what it is and is nonnegotiable.. E.g; If your going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone, a judge is not apt to negotiate.. I tried negotiating my way around a speeding ticket once, but the judge saw no gray area... I fought the law and the law won.

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You missed the word humor.  "Perspective" in a painting, is how some things are made to seem farther away or closer.   

Your right...I missed it...sorry that I did....it is both relevant and clever.....I am enjoying it now though 

von 

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

True... But once a law is in effect, its generally black and white, it is what it is and is nonnegotiable.. E.g; If your going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone, a judge is not apt to negotiate.. I tried negotiating my way around a speeding ticket once, but the judge saw no gray area... I fought the law and the law won.

Don't forget that the law must also be enforced.  Moving to Georgia, I was somewhat happy that the law about not using cell phones in cars was here as well as in Illinois.  Now, after a year of sitting in line to collect my kids from school and watching parents sit and yap or text on the cell phone constantly even in the line at school, and cops do nothing about that...well.  It puts the law into perspective a little bit.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

True... But once a law is in effect, its generally black and white, it is what it is and is nonnegotiable.. E.g; If your going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone, a judge is not apt to negotiate.. I tried negotiating my way around a speeding ticket once, but the judge saw no gray area... I fought the law and the law won.

 

 

That's funny.     

[Key]

On 3/7/2018 at 9:56 AM, Dan56 said:

 

True... But once a law is in effect, its generally black and white, it is what it is and is nonnegotiable.. E.g; If your going 50 mph in a 35 mph zone, a judge is not apt to negotiate.. I tried negotiating my way around a speeding ticket once, but the judge saw no gray area... I fought the law and the law won.

Not really. This is why cases are often revisited, as "interpretations" do change from time to time. So even what seems so black and white at one time either fades or darkens to grey another time.

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, Key said:

Not really. This is why cases are often revisited, as "interpretations" do change from time to time. So even what seems so black and white at one time either fades or darkens to grey another time.

 

Sure, laws change from time to time, but 55 mph needs no interpretation, its literally black and white and means exactly what it says. The 55 can be changed to 65 or 45 mph from time to time, but once a law is enacted, it is what it is. That's why the judge refused to let me off the speeding ticket, he showed absolutely no interest in what the speed limit on that street had been before or what the  speed limit should be in the future. I broke the posted law, and as far as the judge was concerned, there was no gray area about it. 

[mererdog]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sure, laws change from time to time, but 55 mph needs no interpretation, its literally black and white and means exactly what it says.

My wife was caught doing 77 in a 55. The judge reduced it to 65 in a 55 to get her to plead guilty. It saved the court the expense of holding a trial to prove the reckless driving charge for going 20 over the limit.

My wife was represented by a lawyer. The lawyer was prepared to show that the laser used to clock her speed could not be trusted, because the police were bad about doing required maintenance and keeping required maintenance logs. He was also prepared to show that she had not passed a speed limit sign since entering the highway, and was simply moving with the flow of traffic.

He assured her that he would win the case if it went to trial. He also assured her it would cost more than paying the reduced fine, so she accepted the plea deal.

Parts of the law are very black and white. Those parts don't exist in a vacuum. They are tempered by other laws and precedents dictating how they can be interpreted and applied. 

The law gives police, judges, and prosecutors a surprising amount of discretionary power. Evidence is often faulty and witnesses often disagree. Legal systems are often underfunded and under pressure to push cases through quickly. It makes negotiated justice the norm rather than the exception.

Edited March 9, 2018 by mererdog

[Key]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Sure, laws change from time to time, but 55 mph needs no interpretation, its literally black and white and means exactly what it says. The 55 can be changed to 65 or 45 mph from time to time, but once a law is enacted, it is what it is. That's why the judge refused to let me off the speeding ticket, he showed absolutely no interest in what the speed limit on that street had been before or what the  speed limit should be in the future. I broke the posted law, and as far as the judge was concerned, there was no gray area about it. 

Sure, as per your example, not all laws are negotiable or contestable. But say your speeding was captured by a camera. That has been contested before, and won from time to time. Even radar guns have been contested, and turned over. So while the posted limit never changed, other issues make it negotiable, so to speak. Challenges can make laws debatable.

Btw, my comment was in reference to your opening statement, not your example.

On 3/7/2018 at 12:43 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

But once a law is in effect, its generally black and white, it is what it is and is nonnegotiable.

 

[mererdog]

32 minutes ago, Key said:

Btw, my comment was in reference to your opening statement, not your example.

Why'd you have to drag poor Jonathan into it?

[cuchulain]

I would suggest that for some people it might be helpful to draw lines.  There are some extremely wishy washy people out there who have real trouble making even simple decisions, and having a strong and authoritative background can certainly help SOME people.  I knew a buddies girlfriend once who took thirty minutes, literally thirty minutes, to decide on a choice of two things that were identical.  They were the same exact product, although I don't remember what the product was.  They were the same brand, color, everything.  And it took her 30 minutes.