What are they thinking (the deities) .....

[VonNoble]

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The old gods have changes in name and form, but they never quite go away.  Mother Nature looks a lot like the Old Earth Goddess.  Look around.  Lady Luck, Old Man Winter, Father Time, Death  -- plenty of others -- still with us.  Some of them don't change at all.  Cupid is still Cupid.  

 

 

I had not made the connection to the iconic figures of daily folklore and traditions...but there is a connection so that is helpful to see.

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

I had not one clue about the story of Ragnorock....I am not sure I ever heard of it beyond a recent scan of the movie selection.   

I thought it was a made up word when I read it.    So little did I know.

 

My notation of comfort began and ended with the reassurance that that table full of imaginary table full of gods chatting was not 

interested in humans so much.  That version of things was comforting to me over the meddling and demanding version I had

heretofore so often encountered. 

 

 gods minding their own business and allowing me to go forth in peace was a refreshing and comforting idea. 

von

 

 

Do you mean the Bible?     

 

Atheism is still an option.     

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

I am happy to see this answer.   

I too believe to revere oneself is very important - however - there is something about saying so out loud that

causes people to look askance a bit....so I do not say such things out loud. 

 

There is somehow a negative take away by some if you say such a thing (that I do not fully understand) 

but I DO SEE that reaction. 

von

 

Again, do you mean Atheism?  

 

Psalm 14 [Full Chapter]

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good. The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God. They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. ...

 

I prefer to say it out loud.       

 

 

[VonNoble]

On 12/15/2017 at 5:13 AM, VonNoble said:

I too believe to revere oneself is very important - however - there is something about saying so out loud that

causes people to look askance a bit....so I do not say such things out loud. 

von

 

Jonathan H.B. Lobl.....in the above comment I was noting it more as people thinking you are an egomaniac or something along those lines.  That reaction might come back even stronger if the listeners are practitioners who have some heightened alarm bells for those who lack humility (as they understand the term.) 

 

On 12/15/2017 at 5:16 AM, VonNoble said:

 That version of things was comforting to me over the meddling and demanding version I had heretofore so often encountered. 

 

 gods minding their own business and allowing me to go forth in peace was a refreshing and comforting idea. 

von

 

My limited (admittedly) knowledge of mythology came largely from doing translations from an upper level Latin class in high school.  Our teacher loved Roman Mythology and we loved getting her off topic.  So having her wander off topic by encouraging her to tell us stories about the Roman gods (and the awful things they did when intervening in the lives of humans) was pretty much all I know about.      I did take a course in college focusing on the mythology of Native Americans but there was nothing anywhere in that class that resembled those punitive Roman gods I had heard about it high school.  The Native American spirituality seemed a FAR MORE comfortable approach. 

 

I have always (in my adult life)  been on the fence about atheism.  While I come from a mixed-marriage home (liberal non-practicing Jewish & equally liberal but practicing - Catholic upbringing) (making both parents deists) - thankfully they never imposed their viewpoint upon us.   So I sort of knew the Judeo-Christian version of God growing up.    WE (the kids) were never told any of it was true or necessary.     In fact, they ENCOURAGED us to go explore all options.   Most of my siblings chose to stay within the confines of more conventional options.  One of my sister's is an Episcopal clergy.    One a conservative Catholic who sent her kids to Catholic schools.  (incidentally none of her kids practice Catholicism.)   One a loosely practicing Jew.   And the rest a hodge-podge of this and that .....sort of floating towards whatever works for them -  this year.    NONE are exclusive in their views.   None are fundamentalist anythings.  And all, coming from the strong influence of my mother - all are very accepting of all other views.   Family gatherings are the United Nations of spiritual gatherings.    

 

in my youth -  I went to church with friends.  Pestered all adults about their beliefs.   Took all sorts of classes from all sorts of people and institutions.  I find my parents gave us a tremendous gift in that liberty.   At one point I attended a Christan Bible college and actually that went very well.  They were anxious to covert me.....so they explained things at great length without accosting me.   My mother was not too happy about that little experiment.  She did not believe, as a group, anyone coming out of that building would be inclusive or open minded....but in typical mother fashion....the only thing she said:  "If you decide to be a Christian - be a very good one and do it with your whole heart.  Whatever you decide to do - do it with your whole heart."    However, their group effort there - while informed and friendly - did not have answers in keeping with what I already knew to be true (they did not match timelines of science that I had accepted, for example.)  And the stories were riddled with holes and contradictions.    Even then I knew a sales job when one was being shoved at me.   I opted not to buy what they were selling - but the sendoff was amicable.  I am pretty sure they felt they did their best to plant seeds of faith in there somewhere.   So far that has not panned out. 

 

As a minister of an all inclusive church....I was challenged to "discussions" (that were often more like debates) by fervent believers of one stripe or another.    When a fundamentalist-type interjected into a discussion an accusation that I was an atheist! - hurling it with the force implying it was intended as an insult.....I simply answered with:  "If you intended that as an insult - it wasn't...I am accepting that as a compliment." 

 

I have read quite a few books about atheism.   Even though he takes a great deal of heat..... Richard Dawkins is a person of interest to me.   Not only do I have copies of his books that are well worn......I have purchases copies for others.  In fact, we bought a dozen for our church library and one of our services we invited the most prominent atheist I could find in our area to come and speak.  It was a VERY well received event. 

 

Most labels imply or imbue an image to the listener.    THEIR idea of the term begins your discussion.   I find we backtrack and haggle over the correctness of definitions needlessly.   So I avoid labels.    

 

When I have been asked if I believe in god/God....I answer the same every time. "  Define God/god."   

THAT usually advances our understanding very quickly.   If they define god/God in a way that is not remotely feasible to me....it is a quick dash to say - I do not believe in god/God as you know him.  Simple and over. 

 

More often that opening facilitates a reasonable exchange of ideas.   Understanding, for me, is usually more satisfying that winning.  

So, in some instances I might well accept being viewed as an atheist.   But it is not a term I would use for a self-description.   It is simply too broad a term for it to be helpful in getting to know others or them getting to know me.   God is remotely possible depending on the definition.   God, by most definitions is - amazingly unlikely and improbable. 

von

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

 

Jonathan H.B. Lobl.....in the above comment I was noting it more as people thinking you are an egomaniac or something along those lines.  That reaction might come back even stronger if the listeners are practitioners who have some heightened alarm bells for those who lack humility (as they understand the term.) 

 

 

My limited (admittedly) knowledge of mythology came largely from doing translations from an upper level Latin class in high school.  Our teacher loved Roman Mythology and we loved getting her off topic.  So having her wander off topic by encouraging her to tell us stories about the Roman gods (and the awful things they did when intervening in the lives of humans) was pretty much all I know about.      I did take a course in college focusing on the mythology of Native Americans but there was nothing anywhere in that class that resembled those punitive Roman gods I had heard about it high school.  The Native American spirituality seemed a FAR MORE comfortable approach. 

 

I have always (in my adult life)  been on the fence about atheism.  While I come from a mixed-marriage home (liberal non-practicing Jewish & equally liberal but practicing - Catholic upbringing) (making both parents deists) - thankfully they never imposed their viewpoint upon us.   So I sort of knew the Judeo-Christian version of God growing up.    WE (the kids) were never told any of it was true or necessary.     In fact, they ENCOURAGED us to go explore all options.   Most of my siblings chose to stay within the confines of more conventional options.  One of my sister's is an Episcopal clergy.    One a conservative Catholic who sent her kids to Catholic schools.  (incidentally none of her kids practice Catholicism.)   One a loosely practicing Jew.   And the rest a hodge-podge of this and that .....sort of floating towards whatever works for them -  this year.    NONE are exclusive in their views.   None are fundamentalist anythings.  And all, coming from the strong influence of my mother - all are very accepting of all other views.   Family gatherings are the United Nations of spiritual gatherings.    

 

in my youth -  I went to church with friends.  Pestered all adults about their beliefs.   Took all sorts of classes from all sorts of people and institutions.  I find my parents gave us a tremendous gift in that liberty.   At one point I attended a Christan Bible college and actually that went very well.  They were anxious to covert me.....so they explained things at great length without accosting me.   My mother was not too happy about that little experiment.  She did not believe, as a group, anyone coming out of that building would be inclusive or open minded....but in typical mother fashion....the only thing she said:  "If you decide to be a Christian - be a very good one and do it with your whole heart.  Whatever you decide to do - do it with your whole heart."    However, their group effort there - while informed and friendly - did not have answers in keeping with what I already knew to be true (they did not match timelines of science that I had accepted, for example.)  And the stories were riddled with holes and contradictions.    Even then I knew a sales job when one was being shoved at me.   I opted not to buy what they were selling - but the sendoff was amicable.  I am pretty sure they felt they did their best to plant seeds of faith in there somewhere.   So far that has not panned out. 

 

As a minister of an all inclusive church....I was challenged to "discussions" (that were often more like debates) by fervent believers of one stripe or another.    When a fundamentalist-type interjected into a discussion an accusation that I was an atheist! - hurling it with the force implying it was intended as an insult.....I simply answered with:  "If you intended that as an insult - it wasn't...I am accepting that as a compliment." 

 

I have read quite a few books about atheism.   Even though he takes a great deal of heat..... Richard Dawkins is a person of interest to me.   Not only do I have copies of his books that are well worn......I have purchases copies for others.  In fact, we bought a dozen for our church library and one of our services we invited the most prominent atheist I could find in our area to come and speak.  It was a VERY well received event. 

 

Most labels imply or imbue an image to the listener.    THEIR idea of the term begins your discussion.   I find we backtrack and haggle over the correctness of definitions needlessly.   So I avoid labels.    

 

When I have been asked if I believe in god/God....I answer the same every time. "  Define God/god."   

THAT usually advances our understanding very quickly.   If they define god/God in a way that is not remotely feasible to me....it is a quick dash to say - I do not believe in god/God as you know him.  Simple and over. 

 

More often that opening facilitates a reasonable exchange of ideas.   Understanding, for me, is usually more satisfying that winning.  

So, in some instances I might well accept being viewed as an atheist.   But it is not a term I would use for a self-description.   It is simply too broad a term for it to be helpful in getting to know others or them getting to know me.   God is remotely possible depending on the definition.   God, by most definitions is - amazingly unlikely and improbable. 

von

 

 

 

People do get hot over labels.       

 

And definitions.       

 

 

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

People do get hot over labels.       

 

And definitions.      

 

Depends on the label..... Sometimes an assigned label compliments our arrogance and flatters ones ego!

 

Jonathan H. B. Lobl

• Epic Being

 

 

 

[mark 45]

keep in mind dan,that is not a self title for jonathon.the board gave him that,like they did me.jonathon has the good sense to ignore it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Depends on the label..... Sometimes an assigned label compliments our arrogance and flatters ones ego!

 

Jonathan H. B. Lobl

• Epic Being

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

People do get hot over labels.       

 

And definitions.       

 

 

 

 

Von:

 

A few more thoughts before I drop it.

 

At this point, I largely use Atheist and Agnostic interchangeably.  I don't care about the semantics the way I used too.  It's mostly about my mood.

 

I mostly use Agnostic when I don't feel like arguing.  Agnostic drags me into fewer silly arguments.  I enjoy talking.  I've come to hate arguing.

 

There are times when I need to take a stand.  I will be nice for now and not say when those times are.  That's when I say Atheist.

 

More and more, I use Apatheist.  

 

People do get hot over their labels and definitions.  Most of the time, I don't care any more.  Most of the time.  Now and then -- someone finds the deep buttons.  And they press them.  Then, I care, for a brief time.    Such is life.  

[VonNoble]

4 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Von:

 

A few more thoughts before I drop it.

 

At this point, I largely use Atheist and Agnostic interchangeably.  I don't care about the semantics the way I used too.  It's mostly about my mood.

 

I mostly use Agnostic when I don't feel like arguing.  Agnostic drags me into fewer silly arguments.  I enjoy talking.  I've come to hate arguing.

 

There are times when I need to take a stand.  I will be nice for now and not say when those times are.  That's when I say Atheist.

 

More and more, I use Apatheist.  

 

People do get hot over their labels and definitions.  Most of the time, I don't care any more.  Most of the time.  Now and then -- someone finds the deep buttons.  And they press them.  Then, I care, for a brief time.    Such is life.  

I applaud that approach... choosing your battles is surely a form of wisdom 

 

von

[Rev. Calli]

On 12/16/2017 at 3:31 PM, VonNoble said:

I applaud that approach... choosing your battles is surely a form of wisdom 

 

von

Greetings to you my brother,

 

I most assuredly agree.  Life is way to short to argue about things that in the final analysis are matters that can not be proved by objective reasoning.  For myself, I know what I believe and why, and I am happy to share my faith.  But I do not want to make my faith something to be argued about.  

 

As to the earlier comment about what it must be like when the Gods get together, while I do not want to post the image here (as some might consider it to be inappropriate) the old National Lampoon Magazine (from back in the 1970's)  once published a few stories that broached that very subject.  Here is a link to that illustration, drawn by the great Neal Adams.  Be warned, if you offend easily, don't click on it.  Don't say I didn't warn you.  http://www.dialbforblog.com/archives/417/sonogod3.html

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by Rev. Calli
Added link