What does your belief system require of you in these times?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

First I had tried very hard to word my question so that it did not presuppose any form of religious faith.  If I was not successful in that I do apologize.

Since I understand that you work in the healthcare field, I appreciate your insight on this matter.  My wife has been a NICU nurse for almost 30 years now and was a surgical nurse for 10 years before that.  She alas does not share your view (one that I share with you btw), pointing out that in the nations that have single-payer systems, it tends to restrict the access to innovative medical procedures.  However, since under our current system many have trouble getting even affordable basic health care, it would seem to me to be a small price to pay.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

 

 

Thank you for your concerns.  The religious faith of others does not in any way, bother me.  Where there is mutual respect, I'm happy.

I'm not a Home Health Aide any more.  That period of my life was just over three years.  It was instructive.

I'm not sure that my work with Reiki qualifies as Medical.  It's a grey area of acceptance.

I think it's even worse to know that the treatment for something is available, but not affordable.  Either way, access to treatment  is restricted.

I recently had gall bladder surgery.  It saved my life.  Not everything is cutting edge innovative.  I would have died without basic coverage.  

Edited February 16, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Brother Kaman]

9 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

No, I am not so paranoid as to think "they" are coming for me.  At least not yet.  What I do worry about though is the polarizing nature of our political and religious discourse.  There is a strong tendency to demonize those who hold views that we don't agree with.  Look at how the right demonized Obama and Hillary, and how the left does the same to Trump.  When you look at the example of Germany before WWII, or France during its revolution, you can see prime examples of what happens when people go beyond vigorous vocal dissent and began to see using force as a legitimate way to impose their views on others.

There was a wonderful book written by Sinclair Lewis in the 1930's called "It Can't Happen Here".  It was a cautionary tale of how our democracy could be turned into a totalitarian dictatorship by engaging in the politics of hate that we have seen so much of in the past few years.  This is what I fear.  And it's not just because of Trump, it is something I see people in all sides of the American Political spectrum engaging in.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

Interesting to see how my comment has led to a rise in a new Hitler persona.

[mark 45]

12 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

If indeed God wanted Trump to be president, I personally think that it was only because God was using it to teach us a lesson in the dangers of giving political leadership positions to people who have no experience in the field, and who it could be argued are in it to feed their own egos, and wallets.  But perhaps that is a bit cynical on my part.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

i have no question concerning your beliefs,and respect your right to them.

my concerns are more tword those who use their deity to justify him being in office.i notice you have a slight buddhist answer as to why trump may be in office,saddly more truth than fiction.no cynicism noted .

however,as i said i do not believe in a deity period,and even if i did,could not believe in one so stupid.

[Rev. Calli]

On 2/16/2017 at 8:02 AM, Brother Kaman said:

Interesting to see how my comment has led to a rise in a new Hitler persona.

Greetings to you my brother,

While I personally take a very dim view of President Trump, I do not equate him with Hitler.  What I do see happening, and again this is not only on the Republican side but also the Democrats, is the rise of a mindset that allows for demonizing people who do not share one's views.  Historically, we see what happens when that becomes accepted by a culture.  It becomes very easy to see your opponents as no longer worthy of respect or even life.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

While I personally take a very dim view of President Trump, I do not equate him with Hitler.  What I do see happening, and again this is not only on the Republican side but also the Democrats, is the rise of a mindset that allows for demonizing people who do not share one's views.  Historically, we see what happens when that becomes accepted by a culture.  It becomes very easy to see your opponents as no longer worthy of respect or even life.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

Thank you.  I will now seize that statement and climb up on my soapbox.

Strong belief makes people capable of anything.  Strong disbelief makes people capable of anything.  The world could use more Agnostics.  I never heard of anybody committing atrocity, because they "didn't know" .

Thank you for your time.  Climbing down now.

 

 

[Brother Kaman]

3 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

While I personally take a very dim view of President Trump, I do not equate him with Hitler.  What I do see happening, and again this is not only on the Republican side but also the Democrats, is the rise of a mindset that allows for demonizing people who do not share one's views.  Historically, we see what happens when that becomes accepted by a culture.  It becomes very easy to see your opponents as no longer worthy of respect or even life.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

While I have no idea how my original comment could led to this, I do see how your response has led to mine.

 

On 2/15/2017 at 7:17 PM, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

Perhaps there is wisdom in your words.  We often see how people with the best intentions, but little knowledge or skills, are able to muck up things.

However, for myself, I am reminded of the quote from the German Patriot (and theologian) Martin Miemoller, who said:

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

Perhaps it would be fair to add on to this quote:  I was not sure about how to bring change because I was not sure of the issues, then people who were very sure of their views came and took away my freedom to disagree with theirs.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

Just where did you think this comment would lead, if not to the National Socialist party of Germany? And how do you even come up with this post in reply to my original comment? 

[Rev. Calli]

On 2/17/2017 at 10:01 PM, Brother Kaman said:

While I have no idea how my original comment could led to this, I do see how your response has led to mine.

 

Just where did you think this comment would lead, if not to the National Socialist party of Germany? And how do you even come up with this post in reply to my original comment? 

 

Greetings to you my brother,

Admittedly the Nazi Germany example first came into my mind.  Not to equate you with a Nazi, or even President Trump, but because it was the mindset of the German people during the rise of Hitler.  Many good, God-fearing people who saw what was happening in Germany during the rise of the Nazi Party, but who took the position that others who knew more about the situation their nation was facing certainly would be able to deal with the issues better than they could.  So they sat and did nothing, allowing by their silence evil to take over their nation.

Let me give you another example.  Back in the late 1960's, I was subjected to horrific sexual and mental abuse at the hands of a Catholic priest.  It wasn't until 2008, more than 40 years after the fact, that I found the courage to bring a lawsuit against the church, the diocese and the religious order that the priest was a member of (he had died long ago).  During the discovery process, my lawyers and I were able to access the records that had been kept on him from the time he entered the priesthood in the 1950's, till the time he left on his own accord in the late 1970s.  His records showed multiple instances of people making accusations of sexual abuse against him starting from around 1960.  But no action was taken.  He was transferred from church to church to church over the years, and his history wasn't even a secret to the leadership of the churches he was assigned to, Those people, the pastors and church councils, all took the view that the diocese bishop and the head of the religious order Father was assigned to certainly knew more than they did about the situation, so they said nothing. No objection to having a pedophile placed on their staff, no extra supervision, nada.  So I, and many others over the years, had our trust, our faith, and innocence systematically stripped away from us because other didn't think it was their business to at the very least question the propriety of allowing a man with so many red flags flying have access to a position of trust involving children.  

I do reiterate my statement that I do NOT equate the position you stated on your first post as supporting Nazism, nor do I want to suggest that Trump is in any way comparable to Hitler.  But I do stand by my view that Pastor  Martin Niemoller 's quote is applicable.  If we are not willing to hold truth to power, very bad things can happen that could have been prevented if enough people had raised their voice in protest.

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli 

 

[mererdog]

On 2/17/2017 at 7:04 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I never heard of anybody committing atrocity, because they "didn't know" .

Ever heard of anyone being motivated to help anyone else because of it? I haven't.... 

Edited February 20, 2017 by mererdog

[mererdog]

My beliefs specifically require me to act the same regardless of what else is going on in the world. This is predicated by one simple premise that I accept as fact: Whether or not you do right does not effect whether or not what I do is right.

Edited February 20, 2017 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, mererdog said:

Ever heard of anyone being motivated to help anyone else because of it? I haven't.... 

You're suggesting that we need ideological convictions to do something good.  No.  We don't.  We need humanity.  Not ideology.  

[LeopardBoy]

My beliefs require that I use my own wisdom to determine when and how I apply the Hellenic virtues that I hold dear.  So far nothing really has changed in the past year aside from juggling a new relationship and the complexities that go along with that.  I speak out against what I perceive to be injustice and ignorance the same as I always have.

[mererdog]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You're suggesting that we need ideological convictions to do something good.  No.  We don't.  We need humanity.  Not ideology.  

No. I am suggesting that agnosticism is nonmotivational. Belief can motivate bad acts but it can also motivate good acts. Lack of belief, meanwhile, can motivate nothing. Giving up the motivation to do good in order to lose the motivation to do bad seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

Edited February 21, 2017 by mererdog

[Brother Kaman]

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

No. I am suggesting that agnosticism is nonmotivational. Belief can motivate bad acts but it can also motivate good acts. Lack of belief, meanwhile, can motivate nothing. Giving up the motivation to do good in order to lose the motivation to do bad seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

My understanding of A/agnosticism is that the A/agnostic neither believes nor disbelieve in a G/god. You seem to be equating it with a lifestyle. Believing or disbelieving in a G/god has little to do with motivation to do good or bad.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, mererdog said:

No. I am suggesting that agnosticism is nonmotivational. Belief can motivate bad acts but it can also motivate good acts. Lack of belief, meanwhile, can motivate nothing. Giving up the motivation to do good in order to lose the motivation to do bad seems like throwing out the baby with the bath water.

I am motivated by my Humanity and my values.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

45 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

My understanding of A/agnosticism is that the A/agnostic neither believes nor disbelieve in a G/god. You seem to be equating it with a lifestyle. Believing or disbelieving in a G/god has little to do with motivation to do good or bad.

Thank you.  Well said.

[mererdog]

2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

Believing or disbelieving in a G/god has little to do with motivation to do good or bad.

Belief in God has motivated a lot of people to do good and a lot of people to do bad. Lack of belief never motivated anyone to do anything.

The original claim was that we need more agnostics because agnosticism does not provide motivation for bad acts. We seem to agree that more agnostics means only more people who lack one specific motivator. So to posit more agnostics as a way to improve things seems like espousing a plan doomed to failure.

Edited February 21, 2017 by mererdog

[mererdog]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I am motivated by my Humanity and my values.

Yes. Things you are not agnostic about.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, mererdog said:

Yes. Things you are not agnostic about.

 

3 hours ago, mererdog said:

Belief in God has motivated a lot of people to do good and a lot of people to do bad. Lack of belief never motivated anyone to do anything.

The original claim was that we need more agnostics because agnosticism does not provide motivation for bad acts. We seem to agree that more agnostics means only more people who lack one specific motivator. So to posit more agnostics as a way to improve things seems like espousing a plan doomed to failure.

Did you think that I was Agnostic about compassion and mercy?  These have nothing to do with "knowing."

A person who lacks compassion is not in need of theology, but of compassion and humanity.

Edited February 21, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Brother Kaman]

7 hours ago, mererdog said:

Belief in God has motivated a lot of people to do good and a lot of people to do bad. Lack of belief never motivated anyone to do anything.

The original claim was that we need more agnostics because agnosticism does not provide motivation for bad acts. We seem to agree that more agnostics means only more people who lack one specific motivator. So to posit more agnostics as a way to improve things seems like espousing a plan doomed to failure.

If there had never been religion, "G/god," people would have found other motivations to do great and horrible deeds. B e lief in G/god is not an end all motivator. A hideous fear of going to prison has motivated me to obey those laws that I obey. I do not fear the wrath of G/god.

Edited February 22, 2017 by Brother Kaman
Added Content

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

If there had never been religion, "G/god," people would have found other motivations to do great and horrible deeds. B e lief in G/god is not an end all motivator. A hideous fear of going to prison has motivated me to obey those laws that I obey. I do not fear the wrath of G/god.

If a believer thinks there are repercussions for doing horrible deeds, then it motivates them the same way that going to prison motivates you to keep the law. A nonbeliever doesn't fear God's wrath, so self-interest to do good isn't a motivating factor. 

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Did you think that I was Agnostic about compassion and mercy?  These have nothing to do with "knowing."

A person who lacks compassion is not in need of theology, but of compassion and humanity.

I think the difference is "motivation"... There's no downside to an Agnostic for having no compassion.. They aren't inspired to be compassionate like normal people are because there's nothing in it for them.