Dan56 Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 26 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said: Just can't get off of your scapegoat can you? And you just can't seem to distinguish between a scapegoat and a Savior.. Bottom line, you can't earn your way into heaven, nor can you pay for your sins and still live (sin = death). The curse of the law was satisfied in Christ, now our responsibility is to repent. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 3, 2017 Report Share Posted January 3, 2017 Hi Overgrown,. In the 45 years that I was a nurse I have witnessed many people die. Some die in utterly cruel ways. Watching a child die of brain cancer was a horrible experience. I do not blame god, I just doubt he exists. Nature can be cruel. It does not seem to be influenced by a god. It can be beautiful and also horrific. that is nature. We do not escape from this. Death happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgrown Posted January 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 Hi Pete, I found this christian-mystical quote for you. "Each one of you now, according to the Law of Cause and Effect, is in the place the Total Wisdom has placed you. You are not there by chance. You are obeying the Divine Plan placed in the circumstances, family, community and nation necessary to learn your next lessons. In general, what are these lessons? To be patient -To be tolerant - To love. To love even those who stand against you. Let me put it a different way; to be a good Christian, or a good Buddhist, or a good Muslim. It's all the same." - www.researchersoftruth.org Losing loved ones early in life is probably one the hardest lessons imaginable. I hope we never have to go through it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 22 hours ago, Overgrown said: Hi Pete, I found this christian-mystical quote for you. "Each one of you now, according to the Law of Cause and Effect, is in the place the Total Wisdom has placed you. You are not there by chance. You are obeying the Divine Plan placed in the circumstances, family, community and nation necessary to learn your next lessons. In general, what are these lessons? To be patient -To be tolerant - To love. To love even those who stand against you. Let me put it a different way; to be a good Christian, or a good Buddhist, or a good Muslim. It's all the same." - www.researchersoftruth.org Losing loved ones early in life is probably one the hardest lessons imaginable. I hope we never have to go through it. One has to believe we are not there by chance or that there is some power who brings these horrors to teach us lessons. I find that sickening. The pain of horrible painful death only teaches me if there is a god then he is very cruel and heartless. The verse does nothing for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted January 5, 2017 Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 If you believe in ANY God that meddles in human affairs, you have thrown free will out the window. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderator Cornelius Posted January 5, 2017 Moderator Report Share Posted January 5, 2017 (edited) In my belief system the gods "meddle" as it were. There is also a concept of fate but not predestination. However, our future (which we don't necessarily believe exists) is decided by our actions, those of our ancestors, as well as most likely every sentient being's actions culminating in the Web of Wyrd. So yes it can be said we have free will because it is up to us to create our fate in a way. There are just things that are owed because of past actions. Cause and effect if you will. Not all world views use the same model as the abrahamic ones. Edited January 5, 2017 by Stormbringer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Kaman Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 If a God causes me to do an action or prevents me from an action, it negates my free will in the matter. That is if I have free will to begin with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 3 hours ago, Pete said: One has to believe we are not there by chance or that there is some power who brings these horrors to teach us lessons. I find that sickening. The pain of horrible painful death only teaches me if there is a god then he is very cruel and heartless. The verse does nothing for me. Yes, if there is a guiding intelligence involved. The Law of Cause and Effect can be understood in a more mechanical way. If I step on a thumbtack with my barefoot, I will suffer. Not because God -- or some other agent wills it -- but because life involves suffering. In this case, the lesson is to be aware of where I am stepping. We don't always get the lesson that we want. Such is life. Constant learning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, Brother Kaman said: If a God causes me to do an action or prevents me from an action, it negates my free will in the matter. That is if I have free will to begin with. I don't know if I have free will, or the illusion of free will. Does it matter which is the case? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgrown Posted January 6, 2017 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Here are some quotes on free will.... "Every morning three million "free wills" flowed toward the center of the New York megapolis; every evening they flowed out again -- all by "free will," and on a smooth and predictable curve." - "The Year of the Jackpot" - Heinlein "It is not free will but "it is the Lord Who sets the captives free" (Ps. 145:7) - St John Cassian "Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here" - Swami Vivekananda "..the average man is indeed incapable of the single smallest independent or spontaneous action or word. All of him is only the result of external effect. Man is a transforming machine, a kind of transmitting station of forces." "..a man is a very complex organism developed by evolution from the simplest organisms, and who has now become capable of reacting in a very complex manner to external impressions. This capability of reacting in a man is so complex, and the responsive movements can appear to be so far removed from the causes evoking them and conditioning them, that the actions of man, or at least part of them, seem to naïve observation quite spontaneous." - Gurdjeiff Edited January 6, 2017 by Overgrown Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 6, 2017 Report Share Posted January 6, 2017 I read the qoutes but I cannot help wonder what do you say about them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 On 1/6/2017 at 7:53 AM, Pete said: I read the qoutes but I cannot help wonder what do you say about them? None of them even mention issues of temporal mechanics. If the past is fixed and immutable, then so is the future. I think. Maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted January 7, 2017 Report Share Posted January 7, 2017 4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: None of them even mention issues of temporal mechanics. If the past is fixed and immutable, then so is the future. I think. Maybe. My comment was about the quotes and there relevance to child suffering and death. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 8, 2017 Report Share Posted January 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Pete said: My comment was about the quotes and there relevance to child suffering and death. Yes. Then there was a brief side discussion about free will -- or the illusion of free will. Back to topic. If God is all powerful and all knowing and permits such things to go on -- we have a display of what American law calls "depraved indifference." So much for God being all good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 05/01/2017 at 9:23 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: I don't know if I have free will, or the illusion of free will. Does it matter which is the case? I have a proof that you have a free will. Just a quick test. Logic says that if you have a free will, you can give it up to me. Choose to reply to this post beginning with the letter "I" and that will prove to me that you have given up your free will to me, by granting my request and choice of how you begin your next answer. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 On 05/01/2017 at 11:31 PM, Overgrown said: Here are some quotes on free will.... "Every morning three million "free wills" flowed toward the center of the New York megapolis; every evening they flowed out again -- all by "free will," and on a smooth and predictable curve." - "The Year of the Jackpot" - Heinlein "It is not free will but "it is the Lord Who sets the captives free" (Ps. 145:7) - St John Cassian "Therefore we see at once that there cannot be any such thing as free-will; the very words are a contradiction, because will is what we know, and everything that we know is within our universe, and everything within our universe is moulded by conditions of time, space and causality. ... To acquire freedom we have to get beyond the limitations of this universe; it cannot be found here" - Swami Vivekananda "..the average man is indeed incapable of the single smallest independent or spontaneous action or word. All of him is only the result of external effect. Man is a transforming machine, a kind of transmitting station of forces." "..a man is a very complex organism developed by evolution from the simplest organisms, and who has now become capable of reacting in a very complex manner to external impressions. This capability of reacting in a man is so complex, and the responsive movements can appear to be so far removed from the causes evoking them and conditioning them, that the actions of man, or at least part of them, seem to naïve observation quite spontaneous." - Gurdjeiff No one denies cause and effect but that does not negate free choice limited by nature and physics. Try that little test I gave in the post just above and your free will is undeniable. Regards DL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: I have a proof that you have a free will. Just a quick test. Logic says that if you have a free will, you can give it up to me. Choose to reply to this post beginning with the letter "I" and that will prove to me that you have given up your free will to me, by granting my request and choice of how you begin your next answer. Regards DL No. That concludes your test. If we are finished with that bit of nonsense; we can begin. If the past is fixed and unchangeable; the future may also be fixed and unchangeable. If the past is not fixed, it is possible that reality is constantly being undermined and changed. That is the basis for my question about free will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 (edited) 23 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: No. That concludes your test. If we are finished with that bit of nonsense; we can begin. If the past is fixed and unchangeable; the future may also be fixed and unchangeable. If the past is not fixed, it is possible that reality is constantly being undermined and changed. That is the basis for my question about free will. No. I guess that was your free willed choice. Right? I do not make a test that fails to prove my point. To your reply.. The past cannot be changed, true, but the future can be by your free will or the giving up of it. My little test proves that, in terms of your ability to give up your will to another. That would be me controlling your future with your cooperation. Regards DL Edited January 31, 2017 by Gnostic Bishop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan H. B. Lobl Posted January 31, 2017 Report Share Posted January 31, 2017 2 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said: No. I guess that was your free willed choice. Right? I do not make a test that fails to prove my point. To your reply.. The past cannot be changed, true, but the future can be by your free will or the giving up of it. My little test proves that, in terms of your ability to give up your will to another. That would be me controlling your future with your cooperation. Regards DL You do not understand temporal mechanics as well as you think you do. Your answer is irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnostic Bishop Posted February 1, 2017 Report Share Posted February 1, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said: You do not understand temporal mechanics as well as you think you do. Your answer is irrelevant. If your first was true, you would have informed. That seemed to be your style to date. My answer, relevant to you or not, is quite accurate. You disappoint me my friend. Regards DL Edited February 1, 2017 by Gnostic Bishop Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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