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Overgrown

Why does God allow Children to Suffer and Die ?

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4 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

If your first was true, you would have informed. That seemed to be your style to date.

My answer, relevant to you or not, is quite accurate.

You disappoint me my friend.

Regards

DL

Since you asked so nicely       :rolleyes:

A thought experiment:

I climb into my time machine and visit you a year ago.  Your younger self thinks he has free will.  Since the past is not subject to change, your past self is mistaken.

I climb back into my time machine and advance two years.  That is, one year from today.  Your future self also thinks he has free will.  Odd, since I have seen this error before.

I return to the present.  You still think you have free will.  Odd, since I have seen your future.  If the past can't be changed, neither can your future.  That means you don't have free will.

That is what I meant by temporal mechanics.  Not that it matters.  Whether we have free will or the illusion of free will, we live our lives the same way.

 

On a side note, God being ever present in every time and place, means that God also has no free will.

God knowing every decision that God will ever make, also means that God has no free will.

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Hmmm.

If you visit my past and do or tell something to me, then you create a new time line and I would not know I was visited in the past in my present time line.

I think that the fact that you chose freely to not take my little test shows you that you have a free will.

If you do not have a free will, then whose will was at play when you refused to take the test?

Regards

DL

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2 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

Hmmm.

If you visit my past and do or tell something to me, then you create a new time line and I would not know I was visited in the past in my present time line.

I think that the fact that you chose freely to not take my little test shows you that you have a free will.

If you do not have a free will, then whose will was at play when you refused to take the test?

Regards

DL

In my philosophy -- we can't call this science -- when I go back into the past, I become part of the past.  Without variance.  Things unfold as they always have.

If the past is fixed, then so is the future.  That makes free will illusory.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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8 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In my philosophy -- we can't call this science -- when I go back into the past, I become part of the past.  Without variance.  Things unfold as they always have.

If the past is fixed, then so is the future.  That makes free will illusory.

The future phrasing of your next post to me is not fixed although your past is.

You will only know how to respond after you read whatever I write.

You can decide to begin it with an "I", or not, depending on whether I ask you to do so here or not., only after reading this.

You consciously decide to not do so the last time I asked but ignored my question as to if not your will refusing to do so, whose will was it.

So let me ask you again to give up your free will to begin as you would like and begin your next response with an "I".

If you refuse again, then whose will is refusing if not your own?

Regards

DL

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1 minute ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

The future phrasing of your next post to me is not fixed although your past is.

You will only know how to respond after you read whatever I write.

You can decide to begin it with an "I", or not, depending on whether I ask you to do so here or not., only after reading this.

You consciously decide to not do so the last time I asked but ignored my question as to if not your will refusing to do so, whose will was it.

So let me ask you again to give up your free will to begin as you would like and begin your next response with an "I".

If you refuse again, then whose will is refusing if not your own?

Regards

DL

Obviously, it feels like I have free will.  Not quite the same as knowing.  Such is the nature of illusion.

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You could have know, or at least given an exception to your delusion and cleared up your misconception by just giving up your will to respond as you normally would.

You refused, and thus also showed that you had a free will to exercise by refusing.

Regards

DL 

Edited by Gnostic Bishop

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2 minutes ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

You could have know, or at least given an exception to your delusion and cleared up your misconception by just giving up your will to respond as you normally would.

You refused, and thus also showed that you had a free will to exercise by refusing.

Regards

DL 

What would that achieve?  If free will is illusory, it follows that you are subject to the same illusion.

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It would achieve you knowingly giving up your free will to begin a post as you would like, and achieving my goal of proving to you that you have a free will to give up.

That has always been the end result I was aiming for.

Your acquiescence would not be illusory. It would be real and repeatable and thus fulfills the scientific method of proof.

Regards

DL

 

 

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15 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

It would achieve you knowingly giving up your free will to begin a post as you would like, and achieving my goal of proving to you that you have a free will to give up.

That has always been the end result I was aiming for.

Your acquiescence would not be illusory. It would be real and repeatable and thus fulfills the scientific method of proof.

Regards

DL

 

 

You have missed my point.  I am not taking a stand on not having free will.  I am examining the possibility of free will being illusory.  Whether I have free will or the illusion of free will is not important.  I conduct my life as though I have free will.

This examination is in the tradition of Descarte.  "I think, therefore I am."  Someone else, who wanted to be clear about what he knew or only thought he knew.

It never seems to occur to you that you might be mistaken about something.  About anything.  

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You have missed my point.  I am not taking a stand on not having free will.  I am examining the possibility of free will being illusory.  Whether I have free will or the illusion of free will is not important.  I conduct my life as though I have free will.

This examination is in the tradition of Descarte.  "I think, therefore I am."  Someone else, who wanted to be clear about what he knew or only thought he knew.

It never seems to occur to you that you might be mistaken about something.  About anything.  

You know, I had a very similar conversation with cuchulain and yourself. So similar  that I  am finding a bit of schadenfreuda unavoidable.....

But it is apparently really hard to get people to notice the difference between saying their claim is wrong and saying their claim is unproven- between saying their evidence is faulty and saying the opposite of their claim is true. This seems to be especially true with claims whose truth they take as a given in their daily life.

Edited by mererdog

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5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You have missed my point.  I am not taking a stand on not having free will.  I am examining the possibility of free will being illusory.  Whether I have free will or the illusion of free will is not important.  I conduct my life as though I have free will.

This examination is in the tradition of Descarte.  "I think, therefore I am."  Someone else, who wanted to be clear about what he knew or only thought he knew.

It never seems to occur to you that you might be mistaken about something.  About anything.  

On some things, sure, and I usually phrase things carefully as to not misspeak.

It is also because I have given the issues I talk on the necessary thought to confirm with logic and reason what I say.

That and I have yet to be refuted on them.

Regards

DL

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6 hours ago, mererdog said:

You know, I had a very similar conversation with cuchulain and yourself. So similar  that I  am finding a bit of schadenfreuda unavoidable.....

But it is apparently really hard to get people to notice the difference between saying their claim is wrong and saying their claim is unproven- between saying their evidence is faulty and saying the opposite of their claim is true. This seems to be especially true with claims whose truth they take as a given in their daily life.

I want to believe that I have free will.  My gut tells me that I have free will.  My experiences tell me that I have free will.  My senses tell me that I have free will.  For all that, perhaps I am mistaken.  Perhaps I have not pierced the veil of illusion.  Perhaps, I have heard the siren song of confirmation bias.

I think that I have free will.  Lingering doubt remains.  Do you take this for weakness?  Maybe you think that I can't make up my mind?  No.  I have been mistaken about other things.  Perhaps I am mistaken, now.  So says the Agnostic minister.  

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2 hours ago, Gnostic Bishop said:

On some things, sure, and I usually phrase things carefully as to not misspeak.

It is also because I have given the issues I talk on the necessary thought to confirm with logic and reason what I say.

That and I have yet to be refuted on them.

Regards

DL

 

You told me once that you were French.  You must know about Descarte.  "Cogito ergo sum."  Sometimes, reason and logic look foolish.  At least at first glance.  You're not helping.

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15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You told me once that you were French.  You must know about Descarte.  "Cogito ergo sum."  Sometimes, reason and logic look foolish.  At least at first glance.  You're not helping.

Why nor what makes you doubt that your will is yours to freely use?

If you suspect at all that your will is not freely your own, then what entity do you think might be controlling your will?

Regards

DL

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Your comments about the difference between a claim being unproven and being wrong.

OK. Why would any of that make you suspect I think that something is a weakness?

Edited by mererdog

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3 hours ago, mererdog said:

OK. Why would any of that make you suspect I think that something is a weakness?

Are you tracing a chain of causality?  Because I have observed you.  That is what you do.

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There are lots of reasons for people to suspect others of thinking different things.  Mostly past patterns and behaviors, mixed with personal life experience and perhaps some observation.  Maybe mix it up with some history of posting, but that's a little hard with some people as they change opinion dependent upon whom they are speaking to, it would seem. :)  Anyway, good luck understanding the pattern, Johnathan.

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4 hours ago, cuchulain said:

There are lots of reasons for people to suspect others of thinking different things.  Mostly past patterns and behaviors, mixed with personal life experience and perhaps some observation.  Maybe mix it up with some history of posting, but that's a little hard with some people as they change opinion dependent upon whom they are speaking to, it would seem. :)  Anyway, good luck understanding the pattern, Johnathan.

I'm sure that meredog will correct my perceptions of him.     :D    Be patient.

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