"Spooky" Science & Reason

[Rev. Calli]

On 8/29/2017 at 6:56 AM, VonNoble said:

 

Emalpaiz,

Not only do I agree with your observations.

I was amused as can be with the wording re: Genesis.

 

Good one.  (not only correct but also cleverly worded)  

 

von

Greetings to you all my brothers and sisters,

 

Actually, Genesis is TWO creation stories stuck together in the same book.  One from the Northern Kingdom, one from the Southern.  Neither one of which should be taken as, forgive the pun, gospel truth, in so far as they should not be taken as historical and scientific fact. 

 

But, I do believe that the main point, the God created the heavens and the earth, is indeed correct, which is the only point I think our Creator wanted us to get out of the stories. 

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

12 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my brothers and sisters,

 

Actually, Genesis is TWO creation stories stuck together in the same book.  One from the Northern Kingdom, one from the Southern.  Neither one of which should be taken as, forgive the pun, gospel truth, in so far as they should not be taken as historical and scientific fact. 

 

But, I do believe that the main point, the God created the heavens and the earth, is indeed correct, which is the only point I think our Creator wanted us to get out of the stories. 

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

Interesting.  You continue to surprise me with your take on things.

 

There is another translation -- I forget which one -- that says -- "In the beginning, God began creating the heavens and the earth".  What do you make of that?

 

[RevTom]

On 6/6/2016 at 7:31 PM, emalpaiz said:

There is one thing about Hinduism.  I love the mythological stories of Hinduism; they are fun, and yes many rituals depend on those myths.  I enjoy taking those myths apart and retelling them in different ways.   For example, the story of the elephant God (Ganesh) I tell it in a different way, because I do not like having Lord Shiva kill the young elephant.  Even when changed the myths continue to have the same value they have had traditionally.  Why can't we enjoy good story telling?  Why must we convert good stories into religious doctrines?

Interesting: I wonder how many of these creation tales or various religious doctrines started around the campfires of earliest mankind as they spun tales to pass the evening or related things that happened during their day, the stories passed down from generation to generation for eons until they morphed into tales unrecognizable by their creators into edicts for living by the inheritors, later taken as canon? I am Christian, but I believe in science and evolution. 

Edited September 2, 2017 by RevTom
HOw in the world did I tag the quote from 6/6/2016???? hmmmm

[Rev. Calli]

7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Interesting.  You continue to surprise me with your take on things.

 

There is another translation -- I forget which one -- that says -- "In the beginning, God began creating the heavens and the earth".  What do you make of that?

 

Greetings to you my brother,

 

Sounds fair to me.  That's not in any translation I am aware of.  But since I believe God is continually in the process of creation, it fits well with my personal theology.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[Pastor Dave]

22 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my brothers and sisters,

 

Actually, Genesis is TWO creation stories stuck together in the same book.  One from the Northern Kingdom, one from the Southern.  Neither one of which should be taken as, forgive the pun, gospel truth, in so far as they should not be taken as historical and scientific fact. 

 

But, I do believe that the main point, the God created the heavens and the earth, is indeed correct, which is the only point I think our Creator wanted us to get out of the stories. 

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Call

 

 

Another interesting aspect of the two stories is that they were written from different perspectives. Chapter one all the way into verse three of chapter two (a better place to have separated the two IMO) are written from an Elohist viewpoint. Throughout this version only the word elohim is used. The Hebrew word elohim is defined as gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels. We are not actually introduced to YHWH (definition; self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.) the Elohim until verse four of chapter two which is usually referred to as being written from the Yahwist perspective.

 

10 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Interesting.  You continue to surprise me with your take on things.

 

There is another translation -- I forget which one -- that says -- "In the beginning, God began creating the heavens and the earth".  What do you make of that?

 

 

2 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

Sounds fair to me.  That's not in any translation I am aware of.  But since I believe God is continually in the process of creation, it fits well with my personal theology.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

These are the three translations I was able to find quickly with a close match to Jonathan's. Notice that all three do not have "In the beginning" as part of the text. It has been suggested that when translated in this manner God's creative work may not have been creatio ex nihilo (Latin, "creation out of nothing").

 

Genesis 1 Jewish Study Bible (TANAKH)

 

1 When God began to create heaven and earth

Genesis 1 Common English Bible (CEB)

1 When God began to create^[a] the heavens and the earth—

Genesis 1 Living Bible (TLB)

1 When God began creating^[a] the heavens and the earth,

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Pastor Dave

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Another interesting aspect of the two stories is that they were written from different perspectives. Chapter one all the way into verse three of chapter two (a better place to have separated the two IMO) are written from an Elohist viewpoint. Throughout this version only the word elohim is used. The Hebrew word elohim is defined as gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels. We are not actually introduced to YHWH (definition; self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.) the Elohim until verse four of chapter two which is usually referred to as being written from the Yahwist perspective.

 

 

 

These are the three translations I was able to find quickly with a close match to Jonathan's. Notice that all three do not have "In the beginning" as part of the text. It has been suggested that when translated in this manner God's creative work may not have been creatio ex nihilo (Latin, "creation out of nothing").

 

Genesis 1 Jewish Study Bible (TANAKH)

 

1 When God began to create heaven and earth

Genesis 1 Common English Bible (CEB)

1 When God began to create^[a] the heavens and the earth—

Genesis 1 Living Bible (TLB)

1 When God began creating^[a] the heavens and the earth,

 

 

 

 

Thank you.  I find the whole tone changes.  These minor shifts in wording really do matter.  It brings things into the here and now.  It loses the "Once upon a time" feel.

 

 

 

Edited September 2, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pastor Dave]

23 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you all my brothers and sisters,

 

Actually, Genesis is TWO creation stories stuck together in the same book.  One from the Northern Kingdom, one from the Southern.  Neither one of which should be taken as, forgive the pun, gospel truth, in so far as they should not be taken as historical and scientific fact. 

 

But, I do believe that the main point, the God created the heavens and the earth, is indeed correct, which is the only point I think our Creator wanted us to get out of the stories. 

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

I think that there are many other points we can gain from these stories when looked at in the proper perspective.

For me the proper perspective begins with understanding when the stories were written. Moses and the Exodus are generally accepted to be about 3300-3500  years ago. I'm not looking to quibble about exact date. Orthodox rabbis say the Torah was written in 1312 BCE; another date given for this event is 1280 BCE. The exact date is not as important as the time period for me. When reading these texts I try to imagine what levels of knowledge were actually available to those people. I also like to keep in mind that Moses was raised in Pharaoh's household and was very educated for his time. Moses would have known how important a peoples story is to them and would have collected them and had them written down. Now the two stories we are talking about would be stories that had been told by the Hebrews for centuries from one generation to the next. And where would these stories have originated? From Abraham of course. So what does the Bible tell us about Abraham? We are told that Abraham was from Ur, which was the capitol of ancient Sumer. Certainly he brought with him certain stories from Sumer which he told to Issac who passed them on to Jacob who passed them on to his twelve sons, and so on.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 3/5/2016 at 6:33 PM, SisterSalome said:

Sharing this article:

The Race to Prove Spooky Quantum Connection May Have a Winner
http://www.popsci.com/race-prove-spooky-quantum-connection-may-have-winner
 

 

What do you think about what Science is proving about the nature of Nature?

The modern approach to matters of ontology, religious philosophy and similar subjects often addresses these topics with reason and realism. But where do we go when the very nature of Nature and Reality is proven to challenge the very applicability of human reason and classical realism?

 

 

 

I went back over the article.  It seems to suggest that space itself is illusory.

[Rev. Calli]

4 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

Another interesting aspect of the two stories is that they were written from different perspectives. Chapter one all the way into verse three of chapter two (a better place to have separated the two IMO) are written from an Elohist viewpoint. Throughout this version only the word elohim is used. The Hebrew word elohim is defined as gods in the ordinary sense; but specifically used (in the plural thus, especially with the article) of the supreme God; occasionally applied by way of deference to magistrates; and sometimes as a superlative:--angels. We are not actually introduced to YHWH (definition; self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.) the Elohim until verse four of chapter two which is usually referred to as being written from the Yahwist perspective.

 

 

 

These are the three translations I was able to find quickly with a close match to Jonathan's. Notice that all three do not have "In the beginning" as part of the text. It has been suggested that when translated in this manner God's creative work may not have been creatio ex nihilo (Latin, "creation out of nothing").

 

Genesis 1 Jewish Study Bible (TANAKH)

 

1 When God began to create heaven and earth

Genesis 1 Common English Bible (CEB)

1 When God began to create^[a] the heavens and the earth—

Genesis 1 Living Bible (TLB)

1 When God began creating^[a] the heavens and the earth,

 

Greetings to you my brother,

 

Thank you for citing the different translations these wordings appear in.  They do indeed give a somewhat different perspective of the act of Creation.  Again do support the idea that creation is a continual act.

 

In Solidarity,

Rev. Calli

[mark 45]

18 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

 

I think that there are many other points we can gain from these stories when looked at in the proper perspective.

For me the proper perspective begins with understanding when the stories were written. Moses and the Exodus are generally accepted to be about 3300-3500  years ago. I'm not looking to quibble about exact date. Orthodox rabbis say the Torah was written in 1312 BCE; another date given for this event is 1280 BCE. The exact date is not as important as the time period for me. When reading these texts I try to imagine what levels of knowledge were actually available to those people. I also like to keep in mind that Moses was raised in Pharaoh's household and was very educated for his time. Moses would have known how important a peoples story is to them and would have collected them and had them written down. Now the two stories we are talking about would be stories that had been told by the Hebrews for centuries from one generation to the next. And where would these stories have originated? From Abraham of course. So what does the Bible tell us about Abraham? We are told that Abraham was from Ur, which was the capitol of ancient Sumer. Certainly he brought with him certain stories from Sumer which he told to Issac who passed them on to Jacob who passed them on to his twelve sons, and so on.

generally speaking,it is my understanding that the oral traditions are put into writing after the person has died.