Fundamentalists, Pentecostals, And Evangelicals (Rev 1)

[Key]

No, I don't think these gifts were limited to the original 12 apostles, but to all who were given apostolic authority in the first century, probably 70 or more, and to some whom the apostles commissioned. I'm speaking about miraculous gifts such as healing, it is those gifts that Jesus promises that his disciples would do even greater works than he did. And they did. (John 14:12-14). I do still believe there are gifts of the spirit, just not in the form of miracles."How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?" (Hebrews 2:3-4).

Healing's, tongues, and prophets are miracles, while teachers, evangelist, and interpreters are natural gifts. There are no more apostles and no more prophets, the gift of miracles ceased with them. If I'm wrong, show me a prophet, an apostle, or a real miracle healer, and I'll reconsider my interpretation and conclusion. But I'm convinced that apostolic succession ended, and the miracles ended with them. "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12). What the apostles had, which we don't have today, is authority. They could command a healing or a miracle, while we can only ask. jmo

Interesting.

But have to say they had command because they held more conviction of faith in doing it than we do today, otherwise we'd be doing these still today, according to the information you provided. So, we have potential to do more than just ask.

[Songster]

.... miracles ceased with them.

You must have a stricter standard than others.... I consider my existence to be a miracle.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Songster

[Pete]

Interesting.

But have to say they had command because they held more conviction of faith in doing it than we do today, otherwise we'd be doing these still today, according to the information you provided. So, we have potential to do more than just ask.

There are more Christians today than there has ever been and no one seems to do things said of others in the past. Now you can argue that they said there would be no signs or question whether they ever could do it or is it People has less faith today. I somehow doubt that considering how so many are really trying.

[Pastor Dave]

Healing's, tongues, and prophets are miracles, while teachers, evangelist, and interpreters are natural gifts. There are no more apostles and no more prophets, the gift of miracles ceased with them.

So then, the fivefold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11 is now the threefold ministry?

What do you say of Romans 12:4-8 (KJV)

⁴ For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

⁵ So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.

⁶ Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

⁷ Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;

⁸ Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.

Why would we be told "let us prophesy" if we are not to expect to have prophets among the churches? I mean, if it had been a separate piece of scripture from one talking about ministry, and teaching, and exhorting, and giving, and ruling, and showing mercy you might be able to make a case. The gift of prophesy is again being described with other gifts you might call natural, just as it was in Ephesians 4. The office of a prophet (IMO) is a valid 21st century office as sure as it was a first century office. I would contend that an apostle (one who is sent) is also (IMO) an office meant to be filled in the church today.

The word evangelist is only seen 3 times in the New Testament yet you recognize that as an office of the ministry. Pastor is only ever seen once in the New Testament. Apostle ... 85 times. Teacher is mentioned 125 times. Prophet occurs over 150 times, around 20 times referring specifically to prophets in the Church Age. It would seem to me that apostles, teachers and prophets are more important than pastors or evangelists.

[Coolhand]

Very well written, informative piece... (Among other things, I learned that I need to work on my vocabulary! Had to look up a couple of those $20 words!) The inclusion of the source material was appreciated, but I did not see the author credited. Is it your work, Cool?

Yes.....its a homework assignment.

[Dan56]

Why would we be told "let us prophesy" if we are not to expect to have prophets among the churches? I mean, if it had been a separate piece of scripture from one talking about ministry, and teaching, and exhorting, and giving, and ruling, and showing mercy you might be able to make a case. The gift of prophesy is again being described with other gifts you might call natural, just as it was in Ephesians 4. The office of a prophet (IMO) is a valid 21st century office as sure as it was a first century office. I would contend that an apostle (one who is sent) is also (IMO) an office meant to be filled in the church today.

The word evangelist is only seen 3 times in the New Testament yet you recognize that as an office of the ministry. Pastor is only ever seen once in the New Testament. Apostle ... 85 times. Teacher is mentioned 125 times. Prophet occurs over 150 times, around 20 times referring specifically to prophets in the Church Age. It would seem to me that apostles, teachers and prophets are more important than pastors or evangelists.

My interpretation of where it says "some will prophesy", is simply proclaiming God's will and teaching via inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Everyone who prophesies is not a prophet. "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort" (1 Corinthians 14:3) So a man or woman can speak with a spiritual gift of prophesying to edify, exhort, and comfort. But the specific office of a prophet is a direct appointment by God, where a prophet received direct revelation from God, which included future events. Imo, the context of "some will prophesy" in the new testament isn't a reference to the OT type of prophet.

Prophesying today is teaching and explaining what was already prophesied. Jesus said; "I have foretold you all things" (Mark 13:23). So we no longer need prophets in the old testament sense. It was the same with apostles, they were men selected for a specific purpose and appointed for a certain time, And as I've said before, show me a person with apostolic authority today, or show me a true prophet appointed by God? I maintain that they no longer exist because they are no longer needed. We do have prophets today, they are Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, etc. As do we have the recorded words of the apostles, but no apostolic succession.

I doubt we'll have a meeting of the minds, but its not problematic if someone chooses to believe that prophets and apostles still exist today, as long as they're not decieved by those who claim such a title.

Edited December 5, 2014 by Dan56

[Key]

There are more Christians today than there has ever been and no one seems to do things said of others in the past. Now you can argue that they said there would be no signs or question whether they ever could do it or is it People has less faith today. I somehow doubt that considering how so many are really trying.

Yes, many are really trying. But that's the problem. They are just trying. Held back by even a sliver of doubt that they can do it.

This is why I said the apostles had a strong conviction of faith. They, too, faltered at first. But with Jesus' teachings, and stronger faith, they eventually succeeded.

[Pastor Dave]

I doubt we'll have a meeting of the minds, but its not problematic

I think we can agree on that Dan.