Understanding Islam - Worth The Effort

[Brother Kaman]

Topic: Understanding Islam - Worth the Effort

To my way of thinking it is worth the effort to understand any religion, culture, society, etc. Not only will one grow wiser, one will be more fitted to make informed choices in one's own life. It worth the effort just to understand human behavior, if nothing else. If Islam as a whole is wicked terrorist or if Islam as a whole or part, is benign and loving does not enter into whether we should try to understand them or not. Perhaps I err. If Islam as a whole or part is wicked terrorist then it is even more important to understand and well worth the effort.

[Youch]

not really a fair request. Open hostility is required for a group to gain prominence in the western psyche.

Spoken like an atheist. Or someone who has not a clue about the importance of freedom. Or an ostrich.

no, I mean the arab world. And to a lesser extent the persians.. The further you get from the region, the less likely a muslim is dedicated to the eradication of the jewish state. Nomads see their nomadic routes as their homelands, so that point is kinda weak..

So you speak from the perspective of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

Dude, seriously, you know naught of what you speak....

Youch...

Whatever need you possess to be absolutely correct about the negatiives of Islam or the world are not helping anybody.

Just because we don't wish to think about it doesn't mean we don't believe it exists.

Truth always helps, Mr. Edward. Are you programmed to avoid it?

Edited August 4, 2014 by Youch

[scottedward]

Truth always helps, Mr. Edward. Are you programmed to avoid it?

Not particularly.

Are you programmed to take an unpleasant truth and force it down our throats?

[Youch]

Not particularly.

Are you programmed to take an unpleasant truth and force it down our throats?

Yes and no.

I cannot avoid the truth and speaking it.

That you consider a post on a forum on the internet as somehow being "FORCED DOWN YOUR THROAT" is particularly odd.

That you find truth to be "unpleasant" is your problem, not mine.

[kokigami]

Spoken like an atheist. Or someone who has not a clue about the importance of freedom. Or an ostrich.

A bit non sequitur? I am fully aware of the importance of an Ostrich. But, you will (probably refuse to) admit that humans tend to prioritize things that are violent, and Capitalist news reporting amplifies that behavior. The result is that when a peaceful and a violent group are competing for prominence, the violent group will win out in the western world. You have little experience with peaceful Islam because you don't look deeper than the prominent groups.

So you speak from the perspective of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

No, but I have already provided a link above on the Islamic worlds view on terrorism. You are now invited to find research that implies the Muslims of the Philippines are active anti Zionists..

Dude, seriously, you know naught of what you speak....

Truth always helps, Mr. Edward. Are you programmed to avoid it?

[cuchulain]

I happen to agree that most of what I have seen of Muslim/Islam/Arab world views are extremist and terroristic in nature. I will admit fully to not having seen much positive about the groups, and not having researched it very well, so my view is somewhat limited. I do not treat others differently because of what I have viewed about Islam, etc... nor do I harbor deep-seated biases on the subject, nor do I blanket the entire populace discussed here as terrorists. As far as kindness goes, and knowing those of the Muslim persuasion on a personal level, I seem to recall interviews with the neighbors of terrorists apprehended in the U.S. after boston, and the neighbors talking about how friendly they were, and helpful, and how they could never have imagined this happening, so I would say caution with everybody is warranted. You never know who is going to turn out to be a radical.

the phillipines, southeast asia, according to Wikipedia, about 4% of the muslim population of the world is located in southeast asia, so this seems like a poor sample to me, because the phillipines doesn't make up the entirety of southeast asia, so must have an even smaller percentage. 25% in south asia, 20% in the middle east...so 45% muslim population located in the middle east and south asia, that seems a much better demographic. If you want to debate the merits of the religion and the population of that religion, you should probably pick a region with a larger demographic, koki. Its kind of like when Fox news says a poll of their viewers(who are mostly republican), or CNN says a poll of their viewers(who are mostly democrat); slanted polls by any standard. According to Wikipedia, those are the largest demographics. So, how much terrorism in islam is rooted in the largest demographics(the middle east)?

seems like this is a good time to agree to disagree to me. one side has presented their argument, the other side has presented theirs, and now it looks to be degenerating rapidly toward name-calling (ostrich?). youch, I don't think you can honestly say that wasn't meant negatively, and if you are honest about saying that negatively, you should realize this debate has deteriorated. Not saying it is anyone's fault particularly, and hopefully it doesn't come off that way. Just seems like in order to be civil, we have to at this point realize it doesn't matter what information is presented anymore by either side, both sides seem pretty set that the other is quoting biased opinions and so is not going to listen anymore, and only present information that is slanted on their own view.

[Brother Kaman]

I was using up my GI bill's education benefits during the Iranian hostage crisis in the 80's. There was an Iranian in my speech class who was very personable, friendly with a well spoken gentle manner. He as also a Major in the Iranian army reserves. I had no question of where his allegiance lied. At the same time, I enjoyed knowing him. Anecdotal? For sure. Could I draw any conclusions about Islam from it? Absolutely not.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Spoken like an atheist. Or someone who has not a clue about the importance of freedom. Or an ostrich.

So you speak from the perspective of Saudi Arabia and Iran?

Dude, seriously, you know naught of what you speak....

Truth always helps, Mr. Edward. Are you programmed to avoid it?

What??? Why are you dragging Atheism into this?

[revtimothybland]

Having served multiple times in the middle east, and having met and heard countless Muslims here and abroad, I find your post to be sadly wanting of gravitas. Please post citations of the muslim community denouncing the actions of the muslim community. I am reluctant to provide a history lesson, as too few here give a rats behind, but the PLO voted for Hamas, the Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Iraqis, our friends and mostly out of fear, are falling to ISSA. Iran has sworn to wipe Israel off the map. But go ahead, focus on me and miss the entire subject.

As to your debate style, I discount anything and everything a person says who has already proven themselves to be utterly intolerant.

First of all, the entire subject is that Muslims themselves are not the issue. Radicals are. You're the one missing the point.

I fail to see how I've proven myself "intolerant." By the very definition of the word, the fact that I don't blame Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few proves I AM the tolerant one. You, on the other hand, seem to be very "intolerant" of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, as well as of Muslims themselves.

As to your second point.....if that were true, why do the (and this is a rhetorical quetion, of course) VAST MAJORITY of residents of the middle east support the goal of wiping Israel off the map?

Because the Israelite Jews and the Muslims of the Middle East have been fighting over what they both call the Promised Land of their respective religions since time immemorial. You forget that Israel wants to wipe Muslims out too.

And some, like me, only see water in a cup. Truth. Fact. What is.

And because of that, you will never know peace, or tolerance, or anything remotely good. Why are you even one this site?

Truth always helps, Mr. Edward. Are you programmed to avoid it?

He didn't say anything about avoiding the truth. In fact, he DID say that it is there, and that we're trying to focus on the good, not the bad. Again, your need to be absolutely correct about this is, as Edward said, very annoying.

That you consider a post on a forum on the internet as somehow being "FORCED DOWN YOUR THROAT" is particularly odd.

Seeing as you're the one who's not listening to reason, yeah, "forced down our throats" is pretty accurate.

As to my "debate style," since you don't have one, I'm fairly certain that you have no right to judge mine. But you're going to, as always, just another internet bully who can't seem to understand that his insults and lack of understanding are simply not wanted.

The topic of this particular discussion is "Understanding Islam-Worth the Effort." Let's stick to that, shall we? If you don't WANT to understand, Youch, that's your prerogative, but don't force those of us who DO want to understand to your way of thinking. It's not going to work.

[scottedward]

I find it distressing that when I felt moved to look up 'bigoted' online, it's defined as 'utterly intolerant of any opinion that differs from one's own'.

Perhaps Youch should find this distressing as well.

Not because I'm calling Youch names or anything, but because it was Youch himself who made me feel moved to look it up in the first place.

Please calm yourself, Youch.

Edited August 9, 2014 by scott_edward

[Youch]

What??? Why are you dragging Atheism into this?

Many of my responses to him are for him.

First of all, the entire subject is that Muslims themselves are not the issue. Radicals are. You're the one missing the point.

I fail to see how I've proven myself "intolerant." By the very definition of the word, the fact that I don't blame Muslims as a whole for the actions of a few proves I AM the tolerant one. You, on the other hand, seem to be very "intolerant" of anyone who doesn't share your opinion, as well as of Muslims themselves.

Because the Israelite Jews and the Muslims of the Middle East have been fighting over what they both call the Promised Land of their respective religions since time immemorial. You forget that Israel wants to wipe Muslims out too.

And because of that, you will never know peace, or tolerance, or anything remotely good. Why are you even one this site?

He didn't say anything about avoiding the truth. In fact, he DID say that it is there, and that we're trying to focus on the good, not the bad. Again, your need to be absolutely correct about this is, as Edward said, very annoying.

Seeing as you're the one who's not listening to reason, yeah, "forced down our throats" is pretty accurate.

As to my "debate style," since you don't have one, I'm fairly certain that you have no right to judge mine. But you're going to, as always, just another internet bully who can't seem to understand that his insults and lack of understanding are simply not wanted.

The topic of this particular discussion is "Understanding Islam-Worth the Effort." Let's stick to that, shall we? If you don't WANT to understand, Youch, that's your prerogative, but don't force those of us who DO want to understand to your way of thinking. It's not going to work.

Oh groan.....

Just what is it am I not understanding? You're not an expert on the muslim world, haven't even been there and apparently have no idea what is going on there. Want proof of my contention? To wit: you say "Israel wants to wipe out Muslims, too." I added the comma. You have not a shred of evidence of this lie. It does not matter that Israel is simply trying to defend itself, does not matter that that they have no jihad and have made endless consessions....all that matters, it seems, is anti-Semitism and arguing with me.

If the question is, should we understand Islam? Well, yes...but not through the news media and youtube or whatever sources most people use.....how and why is the obvious? Most people, it seems, don't understand the desperate plight of Israel (or the regional history)....the mainstream media has proven themselves anti-Semitic in their ardent support of Hamas, and more to MY point, our own President, in the span of a few years, as switched sides from being historically a defender of our democratic friend in the region to being a blatant critic of their actions to defend themselves. So, wanting to "understand" a religion that, at it's core advocates a jihad against infidels might be worth while if said effort lead to truth rather than appeasement or excuses.

This is not finger pointing. It is simply a general statement of fact. Take it as you will. Or not. I think it will make some of you feel better to simply argue against my post, so in this way, I am promoting world peace.

Edited August 10, 2014 by Youch

[Youch]

I find it distressing that when I felt moved to look up 'bigoted' online, it's defined as 'utterly intolerant of any opinion that differs from one's own'.

Perhaps Youch should find this distressing as well.

Not because I'm calling Youch names or anything, but because it was Youch himself who made me feel moved to look it up in the first place.

Please calm yourself, Youch.

You had to look it up? And that was "distressing?" Really???

Israelites already know the definition, and their level of "distress" is likely 9 to the umpteenth power compared to such an effort of looking up a common word.

Instead of "feeling" I think what this discussion warrants is more thinking. And many a great thinker lurks the halls of this forum. Wish more would post.

[Brother Kaman]

Oh groan.....

Just what is it am I not understanding? You're not an expert on the muslim world, haven't even been there and apparently have no idea what is going on there. Want proof of my contention? To wit: you say "Israel wants to wipe out Muslims, too." I added the comma. You have not a shred of evidence of this lie. It does not matter that Israel is simply trying to defend itself, does not matter that that they have no jihad and have made endless consessions....all that matters, it seems, is anti-Semitism and arguing with me.

If the question is, should we understand Islam? Well, yes...but not through the news media and youtube or whatever sources most people use.....how and why is the obvious? Most people, it seems, don't understand the desperate plight of Israel (or the regional history)....the mainstream media has proven themselves anti-Semitic in their ardent support of Hamas, and more to MY point, our own President, in the span of a few years, as switched sides from being historically a defender of our democratic friend in the region to being a blatant critic of their actions to defend themselves. So, wanting to "understand" a religion that, at it's core advocates a jihad against infidels might be worth while if said effort lead to truth rather than appeasement or excuses.

This is not finger pointing. It is simply a general statement of fact. Take it as you will. Or not. I think it will make some of you feel better to simply argue against my post, so in this way, I am promoting world peace.

I find myself in agreement with you this time, Youch, though I find most Christians I have met defend Israel simply because of a shared God. You have brought an educated point of view to the discussion.

[revtimothybland]

I never said I was an expert in the Muslim world. But, apparently, you and I have seen different Muslims, and, therefore, garner different results.

I've fought terrorists, and I've had moving discussions with our translators. I've seen good people as well as bad come out of that world. You'll never be able to convince me that they're all bad.

I don't get this info from the media, I go out and get it myself.

That's what you don't understand, Youch. And I don't think you ever will.

[cuchulain]

revtim, by all accounts, the boston bombers were as nice and friendly as can be, up until...so saying your personal experience with Muslims has been the same doesn't reinforce the idea that most Muslim's aren't terrorists. In fact, look over past news accounts of terrorist attacks in the U.S., especially people's testimony about the characters of the perpetrators.

Now, that doesn't mean all Muslim's should be put under a broad umbrella of terrorist. But I agree with youch to the point that at the least people should be more cautious of Muslim's.

And debating Hamas vs. Israel? I watched a video the other day, can't remember where, of a group of Hamas militants setting up rockets in this housing complex, and everyone from the complex standing outside and cheering when they launched a rocket randomly at Israel...literally within a minute the housing complex the rocket was stored in was hit with a rocket and flattened, and suddenly the hypocritical Hamas were screaming about how Israel targeted unarmed non-combatants. Irony at its best, in my opinion.

[revtimothybland]

Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz were the nicest people imaginable until their nightly activities were discovered. That doesn't mean that most white Americans are serial killers, does it?

It means we should be more cautious of PEOPLE, not because of something specific, like Islam, but because there is always someone out there wanting to hurt people. To be more cautious just because someone is Muslim is purely discriminatory, bigoted, and flat out stupid.

[Brother Kaman]

Ted Bundy and David Berkowitz were the nicest people imaginable until their nightly activities were discovered. That doesn't mean that most white Americans are serial killers, does it?

It means we should be more cautious of PEOPLE, not because of something specific, like Islam, but because there is always someone out there wanting to hurt people. To be more cautious just because someone is Muslim is purely discriminatory, bigoted, and flat out stupid.

If I thought that there were many, many Islamist trying to kill and terrorize me and those around me, I would be, not only very cautious of PEOPLE, but very, very, very cautious of middle eastern Muslims. Hey! I am. That is not to say I am going to destroy a neighborhood mosque or shoot my local convenience store owner, but I am not going to be too trusting, either.

[cuchulain]

calling someone stupid...does that add to the debate rev tim? Calling someone a bigot doesn't seem to add either. I suppose your debate skills must be lacking if you must resort to name calling. Isn't that against forum policy as well, the name calling I mean?

To your point, sure, lots of serial killers in the u.s. were white, what about other countries? That seems a pretty even spread to me, however, looking at the terrorist is different. Not so universal, nor so even a spread. Especially in the u.s. sunni muslim terrorists committed more that 70%(8886) of the 12553 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the national counterterrorism center. That figure doesn't cover other branches of islam, just sunni. when nearly 3/4 of terrorist murders are committed by muslims of some sort or another, I take extra vigilance when it comes to muslims.

[scottedward]

calling someone stupid...does that add to the debate rev tim? Calling someone a bigot doesn't seem to add either. I suppose your debate skills must be lacking if you must resort to name calling. Isn't that against forum policy as well, the name calling I mean?

To your point, sure, lots of serial killers in the u.s. were white, what about other countries? That seems a pretty even spread to me, however, looking at the terrorist is different. Not so universal, nor so even a spread. Especially in the u.s. sunni muslim terrorists committed more that 70%(8886) of the 12553 terrorist murders in the world last year, according to a report by the national counterterrorism center. That figure doesn't cover other branches of islam, just sunni. when nearly 3/4 of terrorist murders are committed by muslims of some sort or another, I take extra vigilance when it comes to muslims.

IMO

I don't believe anybody resorted to name calling.

The bigotry was implied, but that was it. When somebody was making a scene on another thread, it was explained that the person in question 'sounded' obnoxious. Yes. My debating skills might be lacking, though I somehow doubt it.

I think what needs to be understood is that this forum isn't meant to hold debates. It's meant to celebrate religious freedom. Unfortunately, the problems we've had recently were caused by members who apparently believe that their religious freedom should include the 'freedom' to argue, or tell others that they're wrong. I felt perfectly justified in the points needing to be made as a response to the members in question, so critisize as much as you want.

[cuchulain]

scott, that was directed directly at revtim...if you will notice he said it was stupid, bigoted, etc...if someone were more cautious of muslims, which I said I was, so yeah technically he said it obliquely...which is still against forum rules btw.

But in any case, the above was not referenced to you, so why did you take issue? I didn't say anything at all about YOUR debating skills in this post.

And, it says in the rules that debate is encouraged, rudeness, etc...is not. that's paraphrasing. So, if it is encouraged, then it IS for this forum isn't it?