Understanding Islam - Worth The Effort

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Okay, lets say you are correct. Muslims cannot poltik their way out of self destruction and global chaos. So, are you saying their religious bedrock is preventing "diasapproval" of the actions of the same?

Hint, they would show their disapproval by showing disapproval. We see virtually none. Thus, no disapproval. For the sake of argument, the muslim community here and elsewhere have shown NO DISAPPROVAL OR DISSENT. Of course not......

Is it clearer now?

At the present time, there are no Muslims in my social circle. When I did have Muslim friends; they were a peaceful bunch that wouldn't hurt anybody.

It was much easier for me to know what they were thinking, when I was having lunch with them.

[revtimothybland]

Do you know any Muslims personally, Youch? While I was in Iraq, I knew many who were opposed to Jihad. I come home, and found friends among the Muslim community, I found almost all opposed to Jihad. The problem in the Middle East stems from the fact that Jihadists, while a minority in the area, rule with an iron fist, and people are scared. Of course they're not going to show disapproval; they're too scared of the Jihadists.

You ask me to "get over myself," but how can I do that when what I was saying has actual proof that I've seen? You say it's "tacit approval," but people do stupid things, like not doing anything at all, when they're scared.

Why do you feel the need to insult me because you disagree? And keep insulting me when I fight back? Do I remind you of someone who hurt you in the past? If so, I'll say to you exactly what you said to me:

"Oh, get over yourself!!!"

[kokigami]

anyone look at the link? It gives a pretty good survey response to this question. It effectively refutes Youch claim that "In case that was not clear, virtually none in the Muslim community has denounced any of their global terrorism". It doesn't rely on personal anecdote.

The vast majority of Muslims in several very Islamic areas of the world, oppose attacks on civilians as a means of achieving their largely shared objective of getting us (the US) out of their part of the world. But, as we saw with the fight over universal background checks, the majority can not always get the minority to act a certain way.

[VonNoble]

anyone look at the link? It gives a pretty good survey response to this question. It effectively refutes Youch claim that "In case that was not clear, virtually none in the Muslim community has denounced any of their global terrorism". It doesn't rely on personal anecdote.

The vast majority of Muslims in several very Islamic areas of the world, oppose attacks on civilians as a means of achieving their largely shared objective of getting us (the US) out of their part of the world. But, as we saw with the fight over universal background checks, the majority can not always get the minority to act a certain way.

I did. I looked at the link and found it to be salient and balanced and I thank you much for including it.

Von

[Seeker]

I don't think it's incredibly informative, but it seemed relevant to this debate...
http://lifestylerejunevate.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/top-10-misconceptions-about-islam/

[scottedward]

I don't think it's incredibly informative, but it seemed relevant to this debate...

http://lifestylerejunevate.wordpress.com/2012/10/03/top-10-misconceptions-about-islam/

I like that, and for many reasons. It is informative, it discounts multiple misconceptions, and it~more importantly~offers additional proof for all of us that God (in whatever form) is good and fair. It also offers us the proof we need that it is the failings of humanity behind the birth of our current errors in judgement. Thank you, seeker and kokigami.

[emalpaiz]

I think that we as ULC minister should read and study the Qur'an. To be honest, I think that we should read from every spiritual or religious tradition. In the last couple of years I have been studying Buddhism and Chirstianity by reading from their sacred books. In the case of Buddhism I am reading from the Dhammapada and about Christianity from the Bible. Many years ago I read the Qur'an, but I think that it is time to read and study from It again. I feel that a lot of injustice is being given to Islam by believing that Muslim terrorists are the spoke persons for Islam. Islam has one voice of authority, and it is the Qur'an. Sufi teachers have insisted that the Qur'an has different levels of meaning. I think that is true of all sacred books.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

Edited July 27, 2014 by emalpaiz

[Youch]

I'm not real clear on how Muslims are supposed to register disapproval of terrorism. There is no central authority. Neither are the Non-Muslim countries in the business of registering objections. Registering objections with an Islamist-Fascist State wouldn't be very smart.

Not clear on how they would "register" disapproval? What are they, a video game character??? Dumb. The Muslim community could/would, if it were their interest, denounce their faith, denounce the radicals that have taken control of their faith, and would STOP their neighbors from committing atrocities, IF they wanted to. But they don't. If your argument was that they could not "register" their disapproval because of oppression, then you would be advocating humanitarian insertion and liberation.....but you didn't.....so the fact that they do not "register" disapproval must come from agreement with the terrorism. So says the Quran.

Exactly!

I suppose they're supposed to throw themselves from the proverbial cliff to prove to the rest of us how gentle or virtuous they are?

Oh gosh yes, asking a people to comport themselves with modern social norms is beyond the pale.

Do you know any Muslims personally, Youch? While I was in Iraq, I knew many who were opposed to Jihad. I come home, and found friends among the Muslim community, I found almost all opposed to Jihad. The problem in the Middle East stems from the fact that Jihadists, while a minority in the area, rule with an iron fist, and people are scared. Of course they're not going to show disapproval; they're too scared of the Jihadists.

You ask me to "get over myself," but how can I do that when what I was saying has actual proof that I've seen? You say it's "tacit approval," but people do stupid things, like not doing anything at all, when they're scared.

Why do you feel the need to insult me because you disagree? And keep insulting me when I fight back? Do I remind you of someone who hurt you in the past? If so, I'll say to you exactly what you said to me:

"Oh, get over yourself!!!"

Having served multiple times in the middle east, and having met and heard countless Muslims here and abroad, I find your post to be sadly wanting of gravitas. Please post citations of the muslim community denouncing the actions of the muslim community. I am reluctant to provide a history lesson, as too few here give a rats behind, but the PLO voted for Hamas, the Egyptians voted for the Muslim Brotherhood, and the Iraqis, our friends and mostly out of fear, are falling to ISSA. Iran has sworn to wipe Israel off the map. But go ahead, focus on me and miss the entire subject.

As to your debate style, I discount anything and everything a person says who has already proven themselves to be utterly intolerant.

[scottedward]

Having served multiple times in the middle east, and having met and heard countless Muslims here and abroad,

IMO

I find it interesting that you mention your service in the Middle East, but haven't cited any additional specifics when you mention the other Muslims you've met 'abroad'.

Regardless, I'm still of the opinion that most who worship God in any form are peaceful and benevolent in this day and age, and that includes the Muslims outside of a location as inhospitable and as war-torn as the Middle East.

Edited July 30, 2014 by scott_edward

[Youch]

IMO

I find it interesting that you mention your service in the Middle East, but haven't cited any additional specifics when you mention the other Muslims you've met 'abroad'.

Regardless, I'm still of the opinion that most who worship God in any form are peaceful and benevolent in this day and age, and that includes the Muslims outside of a location as inhospitable and as war-torn as the Middle East.

It really isn't that interesting. Five tours to the middle east, a total of about 4.5 years of my life, spent in the region, exploring a great deal of it, and having to endure countless briefings and debriefings, heck, I even had to write country studies and contingency plans, etc... About 10 years ago here I discussed some of it, I didn't think it worthy to discuss here again....precious few even read these posts. I doubt I leave you wanting, but if so, I apologize.

As to your second point.....if that were true, why do the (and this is a rhetorical quetion, of course) VAST MAJORITY of residents of the middle east support the goal of wiping Israel off the map?

Again, I ask, where are the voices of Islam calling for peace with Israel and the west? Certainly not in Paris. Not here in the U.S. Not in the middle east. If you got juice on the subject, provide it. Otherwise, WISHING they were peaceful isn't going to render anything positive.

[scottedward]

Otherwise, WISHING they were peaceful isn't going to render anything positive.

It really isn't that interesting. Five tours to the middle east, a total of about 4.5 years of my life, spent in the region, exploring a great deal of it, and having to endure countless briefings and debriefings, heck, I even had to write country studies and contingency plans, etc... About 10 years ago here I discussed some of it, I didn't think it worthy to discuss here again....precious few even read these posts. I doubt I leave you wanting, but if so, I apologize.

As to your second point.....if that were true, why do the (and this is a rhetorical quetion, of course) VAST MAJORITY of residents of the middle east support the goal of wiping Israel off the map?

Again, I ask, where are the voices of Islam calling for peace with Israel and the west? Certainly not in Paris. Not here in the U.S. Not in the middle east. If you got juice on the subject, provide it. Otherwise, WISHING they were peaceful isn't going to render anything positive.

Nor do I think will you, with this level of negativity.

I apologize for the above observation, but the earlier point I was trying to make is only that both the Middle-East and its people suffer scaring through both their hate and centuries of unresolved conflicts. It is for this reason alone that I can agree with your assertion that those from that region are almost always out for blood. I do not, however, agree with your contention that the Muslim citizens of Paris, Canada, or the United States feel the same way.

It's possible that the attitudes of the Middle East might have a long enough reach to spread their message of hate and allow people like yourself to sustain such an opinion, but that's all I think it is. I have a need and a Hope to believe the best of people. Rather than arguing with us over whether or not the same can be said of Muslims, maybe you should examne why you're unable to do it yourself.

Edited July 31, 2014 by scott_edward

[kokigami]

Israel is a bit of a touch point, in that it represents the very thing that the arab world is most upset about, European and western intervention into the middle east. The fairly wide spread feeling that Israel shouldn't be there is based, in part, on the fact that it was created out of whole cloth by outsiders without input from locals. Yes, Israel had once been on the site, but it had been gone for a long time. It is my opinion that it should not have been re established, at least not there. But it was, and I don't advocate eliminating it now. However, that particular issue is ripe with problems that are probably best left to another thread.

However, the Muslim world is much bigger than the middle east, so narrowing you focus to it is going to give you an incomplete picture of Islam. That and the fact that you have approached it primarily from a single vantage point, a military vantage point.. might be biasing your understanding.

[Cornelius]

Just over 1800 years koki. Now if another country took away your land because someone's ancestors had lived there 1800 years ago... I think most of us would have some issues with that.

Almost two billion Muslims in the world and somehow a tiny percentage of a small percentage are a majority..... $)

Edited July 31, 2014 by Stormbringer

[scottedward]

Israel is a bit of a touch point, in that it represents the very thing that the arab world is most upset about, European and western intervention into the middle east. The fairly wide spread feeling that Israel shouldn't be there is based, in part, on the fact that it was created out of whole cloth by outsiders without input from locals. Yes, Israel had once been on the site, but it had been gone for a long time. It is my opinion that it should not have been re established, at least not there. But it was, and I don't advocate eliminating it now. However, that particular issue is ripe with problems that are probably best left to another thread.

However, the Muslim world is much bigger than the middle east, so narrowing you focus to it is going to give you an incomplete picture of Islam. That and the fact that you have approached it primarily from a single vantage point, a military vantage point.. might be biasing your understanding.

Kokigami, some day you're gonna have to explain the 'rotten apple alliance' to me.

[Youch]

Otherwise, WISHING they were peaceful isn't going to render anything positive.

Nor do I think will you, with this level of negativity.

I apologize for the above observation, but the earlier point I was trying to make is only that both the Middle-East and its people suffer scaring through both their hate and centuries of unresolved conflicts. It is for this reason alone that I can agree with your assertion that those from that region are almost always out for blood. I do not, however, agree with your contention that the Muslim citizens of Paris, Canada, or the United States feel the same way.

It's possible that the attitudes of the Middle East might have a long enough reach to spread their message of hate and allow people like yourself to sustain such an opinion, but that's all I think it is. I have a need and a Hope to believe the best of people. Rather than arguing with us over whether or not the same can be said of Muslims, maybe you should examne why you're unable to do it yourself.

If you don't agree with my contention of Paris, perhaps change the channel and see/hear what is going on there.....MASSIVE anti-Semitic rallies and violent outbursts coming from the growing Islamic communities there. And, pray tell, provide a list of prominent, mainstream Islamic groups/communities here in the U.S. that have expressed outrage against Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like... it is non-existent. So, while I understand the hesitancy to agree with me, you may find it hard to disagree with the facts. Just gotta catch up on those facts. Seriously...check it out and come on back....

[Youch]

Israel is a bit of a touch point, in that it represents the very thing that the arab world is most upset about, European and western intervention into the middle east. The fairly wide spread feeling that Israel shouldn't be there is based, in part, on the fact that it was created out of whole cloth by outsiders without input from locals. Yes, Israel had once been on the site, but it had been gone for a long time. It is my opinion that it should not have been re established, at least not there. But it was, and I don't advocate eliminating it now. However, that particular issue is ripe with problems that are probably best left to another thread.

However, the Muslim world is much bigger than the middle east, so narrowing you focus to it is going to give you an incomplete picture of Islam. That and the fact that you have approached it primarily from a single vantage point, a military vantage point.. might be biasing your understanding.

A bit of a touch point?????? What are you describing, some emotional work-place misunderstanding???

"Arab" world? I think you mean Muslim or Islamic.

"Outsiders?" Who might be the insiders?? Recall from our expansive grasp of history. Only nomads existed in the region known today as Palestine and Jerusalem remained Jewish through most of modern history.

Your point FAILS MISERABLY at getting to the important issue....terrorism and hatred and state-sponsored genocide. Bigotry and hatred and state-sponsored terrorism, and regional state policy demands the elimination of Israel, Jews and by extension, the West. Conversion or elimination. And by you IGNORING that fact in an attempt to EXCUSE the behavior of terrorists, only underlines your "biasing your understanding." Your attempt to blur who the aggressors are doesn't wash with me.

Tell us, wise one, what is the "complete picture of Islam??" That is a rhetorical question, as you've already painted yourself into a corner here.

[Kingfisher]

“If in thirst you drink water from a cup, you see God in it. Those who are not in love with God will see only their own faces in it.” ~ Rumi

[Youch]

“If in thirst you drink water from a cup, you see God in it. Those who are not in love with God will see only their own faces in it.” ~ Rumi

And some, like me, only see water in a cup. Truth. Fact. What is.

The dude who lives across from me is Islamic. He is a founding member of a new and local Islamic Center in my area. He is kind to me and shares outgrown kids clothing with my wife for my two crumb snatchers. Nice man. Our world views, in some ways, CANNOT be farther apart. And I remember this always.

[kokigami]

If you don't agree with my contention of Paris, perhaps change the channel and see/hear what is going on there.....MASSIVE anti-Semitic rallies and violent outbursts coming from the growing Islamic communities there. And, pray tell, provide a list of prominent, mainstream Islamic groups/communities here in the U.S. that have expressed outrage against Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like... it is non-existent. So, while I understand the hesitancy to agree with me, you may find it hard to disagree with the facts. Just gotta catch up on those facts. Seriously...check it out and come on back....

not really a fair request. Open hostility is required for a group to gain prominence in the western psyche.

A bit of a touch point?????? What are you describing, some emotional work-place misunderstanding???

"Arab" world? I think you mean Muslim or Islamic.

"Outsiders?" Who might be the insiders?? Recall from our expansive grasp of history. Only nomads existed in the region known today as Palestine and Jerusalem remained Jewish through most of modern history.

Your point FAILS MISERABLY at getting to the important issue....terrorism and hatred and state-sponsored genocide. Bigotry and hatred and state-sponsored terrorism, and regional state policy demands the elimination of Israel, Jews and by extension, the West. Conversion or elimination. And by you IGNORING that fact in an attempt to EXCUSE the behavior of terrorists, only underlines your "biasing your understanding." Your attempt to blur who the aggressors are doesn't wash with me.

Tell us, wise one, what is the "complete picture of Islam??" That is a rhetorical question, as you've already painted yourself into a corner here.

no, I mean the arab world. And to a lesser extent the persians.. The further you get from the region, the less likely a muslim is dedicated to the eradication of the jewish state. Nomads see their nomadic routes as their homelands, so that point is kinda weak..

And some, like me, only see water in a cup. Truth. Fact. What is.

The dude who lives across from me is Islamic. He is a founding member of a new and local Islamic Center in my area. He is kind to me and shares outgrown kids clothing with my wife for my two crumb snatchers. Nice man. Our world views, in some ways, CANNOT be farther apart. And I remember this always.

huh, imagine that..

[scottedward]

There are a few things I might say about Islam, Muslims, or an apparent desire possed by some to be heard regarding their experiences or negative observations in life. In truth, it occurs to me that this topic was only put together so that we had an opportunity to achnowledge some of the positives we might have heard or witnessed about Islam. After all, how can any established practice or devotion for God be bad? It is these positives that I believe can improve not only the way we see our world, but also the Hope that comes as a result of that.

Youch...

Whatever need you possess to be absolutely correct about the negatiives of Islam or the world are not helping anybody.

Just because we don't wish to think about it doesn't mean we don't believe it exists.