Fred Phelps Has Died.

[Cornelius]

I can honestly state that I was terrorized as a child by Satan and the Christian hell.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

It keeps ringing in my mind. I read one blog that felt that teaching children about hell is child abuse. The more I think about it the more I feel that way too.

It's a grey area. We don't want the State telling people what to teach their children. Depending on who is in power, the winds can change direction. The people in power change like the fashions. Suppose the Theocrats came to power. I could see them forbidding people to teach children about Atheism. Or evolution. Or Norse mythology. Or Buddhism. Or.......

Edited April 7, 2014 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

I understand that but in the cold light of objective sight I still wonder if it is abuse to bring up a child with such fear. How different is it to say the bogeyman will get if you do not behave. That would be psychological abuse. How is this different?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I understand that but in the cold light of objective sight I still wonder if it is abuse to bring up a child with such fear. How different is it to say the bogeyman will get if you do not behave. That would be psychological abuse. How is this different?

What makes it different is that the parents and clergy believe in devils and or The Devil. From that perspective, it is not terror. Only the truth.

Yes. I know. We are looking at cross generation emotional pathology. It is contagious. There is nothing that can be done about it. At least nothing that would do more good than harm. Nothing helps a religion spread like persecution from the State. Mental health intervention must be voluntary to succeed. It is a thing of great sadness.

[Dan52]

If in fact, hell is a true concept, its no more abusive to advise a child of hell than it is to warn a child not to play in traffic. jmo

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

If in fact, hell is a true concept, its no more abusive to advise a child of hell than it is to warn a child not to play in traffic. jmo

I understand your perspective. I will stay with my own. That Hell is a scare tactic; designed to bring the Heathen into the fold and keep them there.

[Pete]

I understand your perspective. I will stay with my own. That Hell is a scare tactic; designed to bring the Heathen into the fold and keep them there.

I agree with that perspective too Jonathan. I also think Hell was invented by the church and given their history they seem to know a lot about creating it on earth too (IMO).

Edited April 8, 2014 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I agree with that perspective too Jonathan. I also think Hell was invented by the church and given their history they seem to know a lot about creating it on earth too (IMO).

Yes. It's all about the creation and manipulation of fear and guilt. We must be saved from Hell because we are born to Original Sin. Oh look. The Church has the path to Salvation. Let us crawl, like the craven cowards that we are, and beg forgiveness for having been born Human.

Then we can hope and pray that we guessed right, and don't end up in the Hell set aside for Non-Muslims.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan52]

I understand your perspective. I will stay with my own. That Hell is a scare tactic; designed to bring the Heathen into the fold and keep them there.

I suspect most nonbelievers don't even believe that hell exist, so the lake of fire can't be a scare tactic to them anymore than heaven can be an incentive. The threat of hell doesn't frighten nonbelievers, and its not applicable to believers. Its like telling a child that if they're not good Santa won't bring them any presents. That threat is moot if the child doesn't believe in Santa.

[Pete]

There is a difference Dan. Getting no presents from Santa is not the same as telling them the will burn hell forever. There are many street preachers who many preach the message of you must be saved or you will burn in hell. Such messages have an affect on the vulnerable. I was brought up with the message that one cannot question this because one risks going to hell and not get salvation from it. I was well into adulthood before the questions got greater than the fear and even now I feel the guilt and fear. How loving is that to leave that childhood burden upon me and others.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I suspect most nonbelievers don't even believe that hell exist, so the lake of fire can't be a scare tactic to them anymore than heaven can be an incentive. The threat of hell doesn't frighten nonbelievers, and its not applicable to believers. Its like telling a child that if they're not good Santa won't bring them any presents. That threat is moot if the child doesn't believe in Santa.

Of course, I don't believe that Hell exists. I refuse to be terrorized into submission. Not by the Catholic Church. Not by the Islamist terrorists. Not by you.

Edited April 9, 2014 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Fawzo]

What a poor and sick twisted individual one must be to only behave morally in life because of the promise of some future reward.

[Atwater Vitki]

What a poor and sick twisted individual one must be to only behave morally in life because of the promise of some future reward.

I appreciate the "perspecti-cultory" definition(s) you bring to my mind here.

I must give you a and a !

Blessings of Peace,

[Brother Kaman]

What a poor and sick twisted individual one must be to only behave morally in life because of the promise of some future reward.

My experience with Christians tells me that the very few who really believe are at peace with themselves and their God, knowing they are doing the best they can to keep their savior front and center in their lives. The so-called Christians put on the mask of morality for church related activities and do as they please the rest of the time with no thought of any reward or punishment.

[panpareil]

Excessive criticism of others is just masked self criticism.

[Pete]

That maybe true in some circumstances but I still would not hold back in criticizing some. For example Hitler, Stalin, Pol pot etc.. Not that anyone here is in that group or even Fred Phelps..

[Dan52]

There is a difference Dan. Getting no presents from Santa is not the same as telling them the will burn hell forever. There are many street preachers who many preach the message of you must be saved or you will burn in hell. Such messages have an affect on the vulnerable. I was brought up with the message that one cannot question this because one risks going to hell and not get salvation from it. I was well into adulthood before the questions got greater than the fear and even now I feel the guilt and fear. How loving is that to leave that childhood burden upon me and others.

Its true, the bible clearly teaches that the unsaved will all perish. You may not like the message, you may question the message, or you might disregard the message, but it is biblical. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). How loving or responsible would it be not to tell someone about the possibility of spiritual death? I do agree that you shouldn't traumatize a child, but rather teach them that Christ is not a burden, but everlasting life. But as adults, a little fear never hurts, in fact it can be just the motivational factor needed to keep us out of trouble.

What a poor and sick twisted individual one must be to only behave morally in life because of the promise of some future reward.

Behaving morally is no guarantee of any reward.... If it is, I'm in some serious trouble.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Its true, the bible clearly teaches that the unsaved will all perish. You may not like the message, you may question the message, or you might disregard the message, but it is biblical. "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28). How loving or responsible would it be not to tell someone about the possibility of spiritual death? I do agree that you shouldn't traumatize a child, but rather teach them that Christ is not a burden, but everlasting life. But as adults, a little fear never hurts, in fact it can be just the motivational factor needed to keep us out of trouble.

Behaving morally is no guarantee of any reward.... If it is, I'm in some serious trouble.

The Koran also has some choice words about avoiding Perdition. Good luck in picking the right book.

[Gruffydd y Dryw]

One of the reasons I began questioning my evangelical Christian upbringing was the concept of Hell as it was taught by our church. It was said that one would burn forever in constant agony. When I thought about this as a teenager, I realized that no matter what someone did in one lifetime I could not sentence them to an eternity of agony with no hope of redemption once placed there. I have been fortunate enough to have known many compassionate individuals in my lifetime who likewise could not subject another to such torment. I realized that if mere humans were that compassionate, how could I follow a God (supposedly a Supreme Being) who was that much less compassionate than his creations. I am not a pacificist regarding war, and I would support the death penalty in some cases. However, the concept of an allegedly morally superior, enlightened entity sentencing someone to eternal suffering, sometimes for the most trivial of sins, is beyond me. That there is supposed to be a familial relationship (i.e., we are God's children, and he is our father) only magnifies this. I acknowledge that I am speaking only of the God of whom I was taught as a child. I understand there are many good Christians would not share the same view of the Biblical God or damnation, and I do not mean to lump all Christians in with those I experienced growing up. So if this characterizaion does not apply to your experience of Christianity, please understand I mean no offense .

Edited April 10, 2014 by GruffyddYDryw

[Atwater Vitki]

My experience with Christians tells me that the very few who really believe are at peace with themselves and their God, knowing they are doing the best they can to keep their savior front and center in their lives. The so-called Christians put on the mask of morality for church related activities and do as they please the rest of the time with no thought of any reward or punishment.

I am glad to know a few who are exactly like what you are saying Bro Kaman, completely at peace with who they are and what they believe without any need to convince others' of anything. One of these type couples lives down a few houses from us and quite often (at Neighborhood Watch meetings) mentions what Panpareil did:

Excessive criticism of others is just masked self criticism.

I completely understand where you're coming from Panpareil and I can include myself in that "group" as it were because I am rather up front and full on critical of the Phelps type, and many others in this world. You are also correct in this is brought on by my view of Self. Legally I have made all reparations the courts would have me do, but Spiritually I don't think it's even scratched the surface of the penance I think I owe the world from a decade of self indulgence and decadence when I thought I knew it all.

Especially young folks, I do go a bit overboard on them simply due to the fact I (we all - anyone over 40 !) know they are merely blinded by youthful indiscretion and inexperience. But hey, when a older fella tries to get the younger ones to "man up" about things he's considered either a zealot or crackpot no matter what side of the fence he's on religiously and that is not always the case.

Sometimes we just want to warn younger folks of the dangerous path they are treading on when they choose a life without control, without peace and without some form of Spirituality or Divine intervention or direction in their lives.

One of the reasons I began questioning my evangelical Christian upbringing was the concept of Hell as it was taught by our church. It was said that one would burn forever in constant agony. When I thought about this as a teenager, I realized that no matter what someone did in one lifetime I could not sentence them to an eternity of agony with no hope of redemption once placed there. I have been fortunate enough to have known many compassionate individuals in my lifetime who likewise could not subject another to such torment. I realized that if mere humans were that compassionate, how could I follow a God (supposedly a Supreme Being) who was that much less compassionate than his creations. I am not a pacificist regarding war, and I would support the death penalty in some cases. However, the concept of an allegedly morally superior, enlightened entity sentencing someone to eternal suffering, sometimes for the most trivial of sins, is beyond me. That there is supposed to be a familial relationship (i.e., we are God's children, and he is our father) only magnifies this. I acknowledge that I am speaking only of the God of whom I was taught as a child. I understand there are many good Christians would not share the same view of the Biblical God or damnation, and I do not mean to lump all Christians in with those I experienced growing up. So if this characterizaion does not apply to your experience of Christianity, please understand I mean no offense .

You express a view many of us do coming from similar backgrounds Gruffydd, I too grew up Lutheran/Evangelical and is probably at least partly responsible for my views of Self and why I speak out against bigots and hypocrites so much. To me it does not add up that one self proclaimed authority or book is any more important or of value than another.

One point I think a lot of folks overlook is; Up until the crucifixion of Christ, when any religious reading or oration was given, from any belief, it was done so in the context of "this is how we believe" or "this is what our ancestors taught us" type of perspective....never the authoritarian "this is the ONLY truth!" perspective that has been aggressively forced upon humanity since Paul, then Constantine, began to you know what to you know who regarding Belief and Faith.....

It's all been down hill since then.

Blessings of Peace,