Who Controls The Weather?

[Fawzo]

Dan your reasoning makes not no any sense to me for the killing of the 70,000. So according to you God still has an alleged anger hangover and he really can't wreak his form of punitive vengeance and havoc and justice on these people until he tempts David, causing David to Sin, which makes God even angrier so that then God's anger and need for justice is sufficient to justify killing 70,000 humans.

Man it was bad enough when my mom use to tell us kids you just wait until your dad gets home before we got the belt, imagine having to wait three years. Have you stopped to think why would God have to justify his anger by basically forcing David to sin against him?

[Dan56]

That justifies nothing (IMO)

Does God use temptation as a tool:-

NO! James 1:13 "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

YES!

Genesis 22:1 God did tempt Abraham.

Matthew 6:13 And lead us not into temptation.

2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go number Israel and Judah.

temptation over the census?

YES!

2 Samuel 24:1-17 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ... And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done. ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people .. seventy thousand men.

In Genesis 22:1, Most bible versions say "God tested Abraham". Even a KJV footnote references "tempt" as "prove". II Samuel 24:1 includes a footnote referencing 1 Chronicles 21:1 which says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So there you have it, God may test, try, and prove people, but He doesn't tempt them. Its Satan who tempts us, just like he did David, Job, Jesus, etc.

Dan your reasoning makes not no any sense to me for the killing of the 70,000. So according to you God still has an alleged anger hangover and he really can't wreak his form of punitive vengeance and havoc and justice on these people until he tempts David, causing David to Sin, which makes God even angrier so that then God's anger and need for justice is sufficient to justify killing 70,000 humans.

Judges doesn't give specifics as to why God was angry with them. I speculated that it was because Saul committed a great crime against Gibeon, God told David; "It is because of Saul and his bloodthirsty house, because he killed the Gibeonites" (2 Samuel;21:1). Those 70,000 men likely followed King Saul when he massacred the Gibeonites, whom Israel had previously sworn not to harm. One could also speculate that Israel had recently rejected David in favor of Absalom, or that Israel had followed Bichri (2 Samuel 20:1). Whatever the reason, God was angry and rendered judgment against them, and taught David a little humility in the process. I personally trust that if God kills thousands, He had a righteous reason for doing so.

I'm not sure how all this ties into; 'Who controls the weather?'

[Pete]

In Genesis 22:1, Most bible versions say "God tested Abraham". Even a KJV footnote references "tempt" as "prove". II Samuel 24:1 includes a footnote referencing 1 Chronicles 21:1 which says Satan incited David to do it. Hebrew writers do not always distinguish between primary and secondary causes. So there you have it, God may test, try, and prove people, but He doesn't tempt them. Its Satan who tempts us, just like he did David, Job, Jesus, etc.

So your saying God aided and abetted David and the devil into temptation. I believe that would still make God responsible for the promoting of evil by default. I mean if I saw you coming along and noticed an icy patch on the path and did not warn you then even though I did not put the ice there I would guilty of willful neglecting to tell you and the harm that resulted.

That said and play semantics if you will, but the verses clearly says it God who moved David to sin and God who was then angry:-

2 Samuel 24:1-17 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah. ... And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done. ... So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel ... and there died of the people .. seventy thousand men.

and clearly says that God was unhappy with the census:-

1 Chronicles 21:2

And David said to Joab and to the rulers of the people, Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan; and bring the number of them to me, that I may know it. ... And God was displeased with this thing; therefore he smote Israel. ... So the LORD sent pestilence upon Israel: and there fell of Israel seventy thousand men.

Judges doesn't give specifics as to why God was angry with them. I speculated that it was because Saul committed a great crime against Gibeon, God told David; "It is because of Saul and his bloodthirsty house, because he killed the Gibeonites" (2 Samuel;21:1). Those 70,000 men likely followed King Saul when he massacred the Gibeonites, whom Israel had previously sworn not to harm. One could also speculate that Israel had recently rejected David in favor of Absalom, or that Israel had followed Bichri (2 Samuel 20:1). Whatever the reason, God was angry and rendered judgment against them, and taught David a little humility in the process. I personally trust that if God kills thousands, He had a righteous reason for doing so.

I'm not sure how all this ties into; 'Who controls the weather?'

It has to do with the weather because you said it was God who caused the hardship of the tornado and as I understand this again was due to God again putting temptation in the way of two people and then victimizing them and their offspring.

. As for God only killing those who fought against the Gibeonites then I would say that the plague according to 2 Samuel 24:15 was throughout Israel and I would reckon that meant it was unspecific who the victims of were.

[Fawzo]

We also know that the 70,000 men killed didn't include the women, children and slaves who would have been killed but unlisted by the misogynistic writers of the Bible. We also know that David was given a choice of three different forms of punishment:

“This is what the Lord says: ‘Take your choice: 12 three years of famine, three months of being swept away[a] before your enemies, with their swords overtaking you, or three days of the sword of theLord—days of plague in the land, with the angel of the Lord ravaging every part of Israel.’ Now then, decide how I should answer the one who sent me.”

So Dan's attempt at justifying God's action by claiming it was only men who had already disobeyed God seems very implausible to me. In none of the three scenarios presented wouldn't innocent children and some unborn die. I think David's lamentation also disproves Dan's theory.

David said to God, “Was it not I who ordered the fighting men to be counted? I, the shepherd,[c] have sinned and done wrong. These are but sheep. What have they done? Lord my God, let your hand fall on me and my family, but do not let this plague remain on your people.”

Edited June 15, 2013 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

The LORD is a jealous God, filled with vengeance and wrath. He takes revenge on all who oppose him and furiously destroys his enemies! The LORD is slow to get angry, but his power is great, and he never lets the guilty go unpunished. He displays his power in the whirlwind and the storm. The billowing clouds are the dust beneath his feet. At his command the oceans and rivers dry up, the lush pastures of Bashan and Carmel fade, and the green forests of Lebanon wilt. In his presence the mountains quake, and the hills melt away; the earth trembles, and its people are destroyed. Who can stand before his fierce anger? Who can survive his burning fury? His rage blazes forth like fire, and the mountains crumble to dust in his presence. The LORD is good. When trouble comes, he is a strong refuge. And he knows everyone who trusts in him. But he sweeps away his enemies in an overwhelming flood. He pursues his foes into the darkness of night. (Nahum 1:2-8 NLT)

[Ex Nihilo]

The old man who went to bed and bumped his head

[Dan56]

So your saying God aided and abetted David and the devil into temptation. I believe that would still make God responsible for the promoting of evil by default. I mean if I saw you coming along and noticed an icy patch on the path and did not warn you then even though I did not put the ice there I would guilty of willful neglecting to tell you and the harm that resulted.

I wouldn't describe God as aiding and abetting David and the devil into temptation. God allowed David to be tempted by Satan, just as he did Jesus. Satan does the tempting, not God. And God does warn us, He's made us aware of sin and even wrote 10 of them down. Consider the first sin, were A&E warned? So imo, God is not guilty of willfully neglecting to warn us.

We also know that the 70,000 men killed didn't include the women, children and slaves who would have been killed but unlisted by the misogynistic writers of the Bible. We also know that David was given a choice of three different forms of punishment:

So Dan's attempt at justifying God's action by claiming it was only men who had already disobeyed God seems very implausible to me. In none of the three scenarios presented wouldn't innocent children and some unborn die. I think David's lamentation also disproves Dan's theory.

I was speculating, not attempting to justify God's action, He doesn't need anyone to justify anything He does. Why God chose to use David's sin as a catalyst to punish Israel is conjecture, but clearly David suffered the anguish of God's judgement against Israel. We simply know for certain that God was angry with Israel, He allowed the adversary to tempt David, who fell to pride and took the census. Both 2 Samuel 24:15 and 1 Chronicles 21:14 say that 70,000 men of Israel lost their lives. That's what we know for certain, but ultimately women and children may have also died.

Edited June 16, 2013 by Dan56

[Fawzo]

Dan we know God had no problem killing children and women and even condoning rape.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#raping-and-killing

Since the Bible claims God is in complete control of the weather shouldn't all the Organizations here on earth that claim to be his direct representative then be held liable for the damages he caused and made to pay restitution for loss of life and property?

Edited June 16, 2013 by Fawzo

[panpareil]

Dan we know God had no problem killing children and women and even condoning rape.

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/darkbible3.htm#raping-and-killing

Since the Bible claims God is in complete control of the weather shouldn't all the Organizations here on earth that claim to be his direct representative then be held liable for the damages he caused and made to pay restitution for loss of life and property?

There is no loss of property. All property is God's, including all people. He has simply broken his own things. It is his own right. If anyone does not like the situation, they can simply not exist. We do have free will, after all.

[mererdog]

Why God chose to use David's sin as a catalyst to punish Israel is conjecture,

That God chose to use David's sin as a catalyst to punish Israel is conjecture.

Sorry, it just needed to be said.

The answer to your question is fairly simple: I don't know.

Edited June 17, 2013 by mererdog

[Pete]

Putting beliefs aside and respecting them. The concept of God as a being, the ability to sin against an unproved being, the bible being the actual word of that unproved being, and the Punishment of Israel in the time of David, are also a conjecture.

Oh Heck, now I have said it.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/conjecture

I may have beliefs on the matter but I have to recognize that much is is not provable to all.

[Fawzo]

There is no loss of property. All property is God's, including all people. He has simply broken his own things. It is his own right. If anyone does not like the situation, they can simply not exist. We do have free will, after all.

Humans have children and property as well and are not allowed to destroy or break them freely a lot of times. Try to abuse your own kids or burn down your own house.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

Since the Bible claims God is in complete control of the weather shouldn't all the Organizations here on earth that claim to be his direct representative then be held liable for the damages he caused and made to pay restitution for loss of life and property?

Just send the bill to God..

Better yet, bill Obama, he gives money to everyone and you don't even need to be a victim of a disaster.

That God chose to use David's sin as a catalyst to punish Israel is conjecture.

Sorry, it just needed to be said.

The answer to your question is fairly simple: I don't know.

Conjecture is an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

I have plenty of conjecture

The 2 books of Judges are notorious for lacking details. While no one can know exactly what prompted God's anger against Israel, we know that Israel and David did sin. Perhaps it was a culmination of transgressions? What's being missed is the lesson behind the story, which is that David repented, God relented, and the rest of Israel was spared. David bought the threshing floor from Araunah (Ornan), built an alter, and made a type of sacrifice that foreshadowed the ultimate sacrifice. I don't think it was any accident that God's judgement against Israel ended at the threshing floor.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Dan56

[Fawzo]

Just send the bill to God..

Better yet, bill Obama, he gives money to everyone and you don't even need to be a victim of a disaster.

No I think a class action lawsuit filed against those claiming to be his only contact points here on earth is more appropriate.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

No I think a class action lawsuit filed against those claiming to be his only contact points here on earth is more appropriate.

Which earthly court has jurisdiction to bring this suit?

Which earthly court has jurisdiction to bring this suit?

Is God a citizen or a foreign prince?

[Fawzo]

Which earthly court has jurisdiction to bring this suit?

The group Ray-El is claiming that their Messiah and his father are directly responsible for the natural disaters which are affecting the Seat of Satan (aka USA) since this Messiah is an Amercian Citizen an ex-convict named Raymond Howard Lear, I would think any court could charge him and his followers with terrorism since thay are basically pleading guilty, or charge them with faud or at least a brief stay at a mental facility to make sure they are mentally sound and not a danger to themselves and others.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

The group Ray-El is claiming that their Messiah and his father are directly responsible for the natural disaters which are affecting the Seat of Satan (aka USA) since this Messiah is an Amercian Citizen an ex-convict named Raymond Howard Lear, I would think any court could charge him and his followers with terrorism since thay are basically pleading guilty, or charge them with faud or at least a brief stay at a mental facility to make sure they are mentally sound and not a danger to themselves and others.

Ray-El ? Any connection to Kal El?

[Fawzo]

Ray-El ? Any connection to Kal El?

No but give his group long enough and they'll find a Bible Code to make one lol

Edited June 18, 2013 by Fawzo

[Zequatanil]

First God,then nature...and now man is messing it up! So I think at this point the manipulation of man and his doings that is why it is so bad. God and nature were always in balance, man is not.

blessings,

Suzanne

[mererdog]

Conjecture is an opinion or theory without sufficient evidence for proof.

I have plenty of conjecture

The 2 books of Judges are notorious for lacking details. While no one can know exactly what prompted God's anger against Israel, we know that Israel and David did sin.

Well, no. You take it for granted that the Biblical account is accurate. I don't. And without that faith-based lens to look through, I see no compelling evidence that King David was anything more than a myth. So "we" know no such thing. It is, of course, possible that you simply know something that I do not. It is also completely possible, however, that you believe things that are not true and mistake that for knowledge. It would be nice if there was a way to prove conclusively which was the case, but life never seems to be that easy.

Edited June 19, 2013 by mererdog