Man: Good, Evil, Or Undecided?

[Pastor Dave]

I don't understand how/why people think they get to decide what God should do or not do.

Does a child get to tell the parent what they can do? Certainly not if the parent is a good parent that wants to raise up a child into a solid, well behaved adult.

I know that it's impossible (for me at least) to understand why evil people are allowed by God to live. It matters not to me. I believe it has to do with Adam/Eve's decision to want to know good and evil. Once the "cat is out of the bag" or the "genie is out of the bottle" it can not be put back in.

Isaiah 55:

⁶ Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

⁷ Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the Lord, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

⁸ For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the Lord.

⁹ For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

¹⁰ For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:

¹¹ So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

[Dan56]

If there is nothing that God cannot do, that purpose could have been served without the flood or plagues- Because God could have done it differently. That is, once again, cut and dried. To get Biblical about it, note that Pharaoh was ready to give in before the final plague, but God hardened his heart. An all-powerful God does not do what is necessary, He does what He wants. There is simply no logical way around that.

I can agree with all that... Sure, God could have done things differently, but He does what He wants. Sin equals death though, and once God determines that there will be no repentance and no hope of people turning from their ways, He brings the hammer down. We may not deem it necessary, but God obviously does.

[Brother Kaman]

And this is where "God is on our side," fits into the matrix of war. We are killing the most so God is on our side for destroying all those nasty sinners for him. Yeah, right.

[Fawzo]

Your not considering free-will, there's nothing God cannot do, but He will not force us to accept him. We were condemned to these flesh bodies to perish, endure pain, hardships, and to struggle for a season. The whole purpose is to bring about a greater good for those who accept God, and to eliminate those who don't. Those destroyed in the flood and the plagues God sent against the Pharaoh in Egypt destroyed the bad and freed the good.

That is not the "greater good" if the lesser of those two groups of people choose to accept God, it is the "lesser good". If only 144,000 accept God and the rest perish that surely is not the greater good.

And this is where "God is on our side," fits into the matrix of war. We are killing the most so God is on our side for destroying all those nasty sinners for him. Yeah, right.

That is why each side had to make up their own gods. Wouldn't be right to force God to chose sides among the nations. It is not like he has a favorite nation ...oh wait a minute

[mererdog]

We may not deem it necessary, but God obviously does.

No. There is no necessary for an all powerful God. It is really simple. You are trying to deem it necessary because it is the only way it could qualify as right under the qualifications you stated. That does not mean that God deems it necessary. Once again, if God is all powerful, God does what God want to. No ifs. No ands. No buts. As simple as that.

[Dan56]

That is not the "greater good" if the lesser of those two groups of people choose to accept God, it is the "lesser good". If only 144,000 accept God and the rest perish that surely is not the greater good.

Its estimated that there's over 2 billion Christians in the world today, so I'd say that saving Noah and the Hebrews was the greater good. But even so, I don't believe the numbers are priority one for the biblical God, those who reject Christ are already dead in sin.

No. There is no necessary for an all powerful God. It is really simple. You are trying to deem it necessary because it is the only way it could qualify as right under the qualifications you stated. That does not mean that God deems it necessary. Once again, if God is all powerful, God does what God want to. No ifs. No ands. No buts. As simple as that.

In a sense, we're both correct, but are just defining "necessity" differently. I believe God has a plan and is in control, He therefore does what's necessary to execute that plan. For example, when God says that the wages of sin is death, He means it and will carry it out. When God flooded the world, I believe He deemed it necessary. When Christ suffered the Cross, I believe it was necessary to save souls. But your correct in saying that God doesn't 'need' to do anything, He does what He wants.

[Brother Kaman]

I believe God has a plan and is in control, He therefore does what's necessary to execute that plan. For example, when God says that the wages of sin is death, He means it and will carry it out. When God flooded the world, I believe He deemed it necessary. When Christ suffered the Cross, I believe it was necessary to save souls. But your correct in saying that God doesn't 'need' to do anything, He does what He wants.

Now this just sounds like God built a board game for His entertainment and we are the game pieces. If your God is a know all, see all, be all, then it stands that He knew that giving man free will would screw up the machinery. And, if the All Powerful God knew this, then it was his intention that it happen.

Edited November 7, 2012 by Brother Kaman

[Pastor Dave]

Now this just sounds like God built a board game for His entertainment and we are the game pieces.

Close ... God creaed a universe to serve His purpose.

If your God is a know all, see all, be all, then it stands that He knew that giving man free will would screw up the machinery.

I'm wondering why you believe free will has screwed up the machinery. Perhaps you have God's will and your will confused.

And, if the All Powerful God knew this, then it was his intention that it happen.

If you mean that God intended that man use his free will to choose to serve him (which Billions have) I think that may be correct.

[Fawzo]

If you mean that God intended that man use his free will to choose to serve him (which Billions have) I think that may be correct.

That is really nice that God gets to create his own slaves that either serve him on bended knee with their complete will or get sent to a pit of eternal torments and later destroyed. Seems like the perfect scenario those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin and all the other tyrants of the world dreamed of.

I can hear him now....."Oh I am so magnificent and there is none like me. Come all ye and worship me for I have given you free will, but if you opt to use that free will for anything other than my will, or oppose me on any matter I will smite thee and thy descendants eternally"

Sounds like the perfect description of a Entity that bears all, endures all and never fails, whose Love, compassion and Grace exceed the limits of human understanding. The last description is the God I worship, that first one seems like it was made up by a bunch of ignorant folks lost in a desert suffering from heat exhaustion after 40 years.

[Pastor Dave]

That is really nice that God gets to create his own slaves

That's quite a distorted view of God there Fawzo. Starting with an outlook like that it is not surprising that you would reject YHVH. None the less, the creation does not get to define the creator. If you choose to do so then you are creating your own god.

I can hear him now....."Oh I am so magnificent and there is none like me. Come all ye and worship me for I have given you free will, but if you opt to use that free will for anything other than my will, or oppose me on any matter I will smite thee and thy descendants eternally"

Sounds like the perfect description of a Entity that bears all, endures all and never fails, whose Love, compassion and Grace exceed the limits of human understanding. The last description is the God I worship, that first one seems like it was made up by a bunch of ignorant folks lost in a desert suffering from heat exhaustion after 40 years.

Antisemitism noted.

The god you have created for yourself, who loves unconditionally, who requires nothing from its follower, who does not care what you do, who brings all into its heaven/paradise, sounds to me like the god those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Dahmer, Manson and all the other tyrants and murderers of the world would accept since there are no repercussions for their evil acts.

[Dan56]

Antisemitism noted.

The god you have created for yourself, who loves unconditionally, who requires nothing from its follower, who does not care what you do, who brings all into its heaven/paradise, sounds to me like the god those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Dahmer, Manson and all the other tyrants and murderers of the world would accept since there are no repercussions for their evil acts.

And that's not a Heaven that I'd care to live in

[Fawzo]

That's quite a distorted view of God there Fawzo. Starting with an outlook like that it is not surprising that you would reject YHVH. None the less, the creation does not get to define the creator. If you choose to do so then you are creating your own god.

The creation is a reflection of the Creator. As above so below.

Antisemitism noted.

I have nothing against Jews and rather enjoy them myself. My observations of those early desert wanderers being "ignorant" seems justified to me. A people who believe it is righteousness to own and kill slaves because they are your property, it is legal to kill adulterers, those that work the Sabbath and disobedient children and a whole host of others. The murder of over 30 cities and its inhabitants and the slaughter of the animals therein. Raiding towns and killing the men so they can take and rape those men's wives. How smart was Moses? A man who grew up in the house of Pharaoh and must have surely been instructed in the art of astrology and astronomy and knew of the peoples in the surrounding area and yet when he gets into the desert can't remember the location of the stars and which direction was which and made a 4 day journey take 40 years. My comments stand. I have nothing against my Jewish Brother and Sisters even the ones who root for the Steelers.

The god you have created for yourself, who loves unconditionally, who requires nothing from its follower, who does not care what you do, who brings all into its heaven/paradise, sounds to me like the god those like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Dahmer, Manson and all the other tyrants and murderers of the world would accept since there are no repercussions for their evil acts.

God requires nothing my friend. If he were to require anything that would mean he is lacking. The repercussions are that people of those mindsets that you mention most likely are completely ignorant of such a God and do not know him and see not the Divine in all of creation. Their actions are most likely the product of the sin, death guilt cults that dominate major organized religions and induce low self esteem .

Edited November 8, 2012 by Fawzo

[Pastor Dave]

The creation is a reflection of the Creator. As above so below.

Seems like you are pulling the old flip flop Fawzo.

Sounds like the perfect description of a Entity that bears all, endures all and never fails, whose Love, compassion and Grace exceed the limits of human understanding. The last description is the God I worship,

The one statement just doesn't seem to jive with the other.

I have nothing against Jews and rather enjoy them myself. My observations of those early desert wanderers being "ignorant" seems justified to me.

A rose by any other name, my friend, still smells the same.

God requires nothing my friend. If he were to require anything that would mean he is lacking.

Ah ha, I see. Your god requires nothing because of a fear that if he required anything you would see him as lacking.

My god requires adherence to certain rules or repentance for failure to follow said rules. Repentance involves a change of mind. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness. With repentance previous failures are forgiven & forgotten. Simple. Non painful and the blessings are out of this world.

[Fawzo]

Seems like you are pulling the old flip flop Fawzo.

The one statement just doesn't seem to jive with the other.

You are assuming that I believe that Physical Creation is an extension of God, which isn't the case. Some rogue portion of consciousness may be the culprit.

As perfectly healthy cells divide every now and then one of the new creations will become defective through the process. This doesn't mean that the original cell was defective at all, there was no cancer or evil in the original. God as Love and ever expanding one day expanded and one of the small cells of consciousness contained such a cancer. This cancer in my opinion was the first thought of "I Am" which created the illusionary thoughts of separation and fear which up until this point was unknown. So evil or cancer didn't reside in the Source of All things, but was simply a latent potential, which came to be contained, within the process of expansion.

This is one of a couple of possibilities I entertain for the existence of fear and its legions.

.

Ah ha, I see. Your god requires nothing because of a fear that if he required anything you would see him as lacking.

My god requires adherence to certain rules or repentance for failure to follow said rules. Repentance involves a change of mind. Without repentance there can be no forgiveness. With repentance previous failures are forgiven & forgotten. Simple. Non painful and the blessings are out of this world.

Your God then requires extraction or extortion and knows not forgiveness. True Forgiveness is non-conditional, once conditions are stipulated it becomes forms of extraction and extortion. Fear places such conditions upon the recipient. Agape Love bears all, endures all and never fails. There is never anything to forgive in the first place, because Truth cannot be infracted against and remains unscathed.

Edited November 9, 2012 by Fawzo

[Dan56]

Your God then requires extraction or extortion and knows not forgiveness. True Forgiveness is non-conditional, once conditions are stipulated it becomes forms of extraction and extortion. Fear places such conditions upon the recipient. Agape Love bears all, endures all and never fails. There is never anything to forgive in the first place, because Truth cannot be infracted against and remains unscathed.

Your idea of unconditional forgiveness acknowledges no offense, so it is meaningless. If there is never anything to forgive in the first place, then your god or One Source has no meaning and no purpose. Unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness can only exist in the absence of justice and righteousness, in which case, God cannot be good. Conditional forgiveness has nothing to do with extortion, and blind love is void of substance. JMO

Edited November 9, 2012 by Dan56

[Brother Kaman]

Your idea of unconditional forgiveness acknowledges no offense, so it is meaningless. If there is never anything to forgive in the first place, then your god or One Source has no meaning and no purpose. Unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness can only exist in the absence of justice and righteousness, in which case, God cannot be good. Conditional forgiveness has nothing to do with extortion, and blind love is void of substance. JMO

Surely a God - One Source or whatever you wish to call it can have a purpose beyond ferreting out offenses and forgiving them.

[Dan56]

Surely a God - One Source or whatever you wish to call it can have a purpose beyond ferreting out offenses and forgiving them.

What would that be? Beyond us (mankind), what is God's purpose for himself?

[Fawzo]

Your idea of unconditional forgiveness acknowledges no offense, so it is meaningless. If there is never anything to forgive in the first place, then your god or One Source has no meaning and no purpose. Unconditional love and unconditional forgiveness can only exist in the absence of justice and righteousness, in which case, God cannot be good. Conditional forgiveness has nothing to do with extortion, and blind love is void of substance. JMO

Dan can you think of even one instance where it is necessary to have someone tortured and then murdered before you can forgive others. Could you ever call such an action moral?

My God I hope not!!!!

Surely a God - One Source or whatever you wish to call it can have a purpose beyond ferreting out offenses and forgiving them.

That God is too busy monitoring our sex lives to have time for anything else

[Dan56]

Dan can you think of even one instance where it is necessary to have someone tortured and then murdered before you can forgive others. Could you ever call such an action moral?

No........... If your referring to Christ, he was not beaten and crucified so that we could be forgiven, repentance is the only criteria required for forgiveness. Justice is a separate matter though, it requires punishment. If such was not the case, God could not be Just or righteous. God is too good not to punish sin, God would be a sinner if He didn't punish sin.

[Brother Kaman]

What would that be? Beyond us (mankind), what is God's purpose for himself?

So, God's only purpose is to ferret out offenses and forgive them?