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What Level Of Responsibility Does Christianity Hold For The Dark Ages?

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They weren't God?

So how does a God suffer the pain and death as humans and to what point? Seems more like a passion play where the actor gets up and walks off the stage after the last act to me. So what is it that atones for the sins?

This might sound a little odd coming from me. Still, you asked.

Most people who suffer such a death do not do so voluntarily. If someone does undertake such a death -- of his own free will -- with fully developed Christ Consciousness -- and true awareness of the interconectedness of all things.........

Well, there would be a lot more involved in such a death than suffering.

Would suffering even be a possibility with "FULL CHRIST CONSCIOUSNESS" from what I have experienced methinks not. Though a possibility I don't see it as very plausible.

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There is a lot of Christian thought on the merits and nature of pain -- as a gift to God. In particular, the aspect of suffering. I am the wrong person to expound on this stuff. I don't understand it and I don't want to misrepresent it.

I don't know what kind of suffering can be experienced by someone with full Christ Consciousness. I am so far from that state of awareness, that I can't begin to know. I can speculate that pain still hurts. From what little I do get of Christian theology -- if Jesus had not suffered, the pain would not have been redemptive. No, I don't get it.

To each, their own.

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Did the suppression of Scientific Discoveries and suppression of free thought create the environment that led to the Dark Ages?

Josh's point not withstanding, it (human creation) ultimately lead to the Enlghtenment. Which lead to the Industrial Revolution. Which lead to increasing rates of liberation for most humans around the world. I'm reminded of the Country lyric that says, and pardon the religious reference, "God bless this broken road that led me straight to you."

Not even a religion can hold back the aggregate minds of human beings. Let's hope this comes true sooner rather than later in the more relevent modern Muslim World.

I find it fascinating when liberals talk about historical suppression and oppression, largely in the context of religion of course, yet endlessly vote for it in the political context. Freedom from religions oppression on the one hand, supress freedom of self-determination on the other.

PURE DYSFUNCTION!! No offense meant.....

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We are, all of us, each of us...God...

The crucifier as well as the crucified... the redeemer as well as the redeemed.

I don't think you realize exactly how right you are.

And that leads to many thoughts about why it is good to be good in this lifetime, because you will be coming back and you ( the generic 'you') don't want to inherit a miserable place to be. If we (the generic 'we') vote into office those who want only to be re-elected and think there is no next time, well, we will be getting what we will have deserved.

I find it fascinating when liberals talk about historical suppression and oppression, largely in the context of religion of course, yet endlessly vote for it in the political context. Freedom from religions oppression on the one hand, supress freedom of self-determination on the other.

PURE DYSFUNCTION!! No offense meant.....

You too are 100% correct and we should not leave it that way because we will be back.

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I highly doubt that one being being tortured and crucified for a few hours could atone for even a very small portion of the sins of the world. Many people have died much more excruciating deaths. Some deaths like scaphism (http://voices.yahoo....ry-2930808.html) make crucifixion look like a picnic.

How does maybe an hour of torture and 6 hours of crucifixion even remotely make full atonement for the totality of sins of mankind. I doubt if such a death would even pay the compensatory Biblical price for the sins of mankind for ONE DAY?!?!?!

well...I don't know about the picnic part of crucifixion - a movie that burns in my memory is The Christ- which gives a much more disturbing image of crucifixion than the milk toast version we were fed as kids, but I have to say...

scaphism...oooppphhh!

the rack....unnhhh!

Mankind can only be redeemed one by one- and that by himself. It is nice and comforting to think of man's atonement as a group through the actions of Christ, but I don't buy it. To respond to an earlier insertion (from Pater), It was man that began the Dark Ages-largely through the Roman Catholic Church and its suppression of all that disagreed with its views. I think it was inevitable that we came through this time: Man's spirit is such that we won't be suppressed and downtrodden for an indefinite time. Knowledge and freedom cannot be stilled indefinitely. I like the comparisons a few posts earlier to the Nazi regime...a time when being someone not approved by Hitler and his minions and thinking outside their dogma was not a good recipe for long life.

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Perhaps it would be helpful to restate the question. If Christianity was not responsible for the Dark Ages -- who or what was?

the decay of the Roman Empire in the west and its unifying and civilizing effects, war from barbarians, a mini ice age, and the plague.

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the decay of the Roman Empire in the west and its unifying and civilizing effects, war from barbarians, a mini ice age, and the plague.

After Emperor Constantine, the Roman Empire was Christian.

True, the climate change and the plague didn't help.

Christian disdain for hygiene was no help either. Bathing was considered impious. What also didn't help was accusing the Jews of poisoning the wells.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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The definition of the Dark Ages is pretty a-historic here.

But also, what do you mean by science?

The Greeks and Romans had some pretty good inventions, and some handy engineering and technology, much of which got lost or forgotten after the fall of the Roman Empire - although it took the Dark Ages to get to the useful invention of the stirrup.

But they did not have what can be called science.

Science in the modern sense doesn't appear until around the time of the Enlightenment - certainly post-Renaissance. As sponsors of the Renaissance, (and as the only method by which ancient literature was preserved during the Dark Ages) the Catholic Church did a certain amount to promote the Enlightenment, even though they may not have liked some of the results. And, obviously, they couldn't have predicted those results.

If you look at societies around the world, certain discoveries seem to take a certain amount of time. It takes longer if the local environment is less favourable (some Australian aboriginal groups seem to have been in the process of developing fish farming when the Europeans arrived - settled agriculture in one of the most hostile environments on the planet). See Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel' for a brilliant exposition of this.

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The definition of the Dark Ages is pretty a-historic here.

But also, what do you mean by science?

The Greeks and Romans had some pretty good inventions, and some handy engineering and technology, much of which got lost or forgotten after the fall of the Roman Empire - although it took the Dark Ages to get to the useful invention of the stirrup.

But they did not have what can be called science.

Science in the modern sense doesn't appear until around the time of the Enlightenment - certainly post-Renaissance. As sponsors of the Renaissance, (and as the only method by which ancient literature was preserved during the Dark Ages) the Catholic Church did a certain amount to promote the Enlightenment, even though they may not have liked some of the results. And, obviously, they couldn't have predicted those results.

If you look at societies around the world, certain discoveries seem to take a certain amount of time. It takes longer if the local environment is less favourable (some Australian aboriginal groups seem to have been in the process of developing fish farming when the Europeans arrived - settled agriculture in one of the most hostile environments on the planet). See Jared Diamond's 'Guns, Germs and Steel' for a brilliant exposition of this.

It is interesting that the term "Dark Ages was" 1st co-opted by Petrarch, who used it referring to the lack of literary developments (particularly Latin) and the lack of written history and cultural achievements both just before and during his time - 1300's. The Protestants, during the Protestant Reformation, referred to the Dark Ages as a period of Catholic corruption.

Expounding on your above observations, it can be argued that inventions and scientific developments are largely due to necessity and response to environmental conditions. IE- heating and warmer clothing, etc. for cold climates.

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Expounding on your above observations, it can be argued that inventions and scientific developments are largely due to necessity and response to environmental conditions. IE- heating and warmer clothing, etc. for cold climates.

Opportunity as much as necessity. Domesticable animals, for example - especially large ones for traction. Very few large African mammals are really domesticable (possibly because they evolved in an arms race with humans), and there were no domesticable mammals in Australia big enough to make a differences, whereas sheep, cows, horses etc all come from the Eurasian land mass. Roughly, where animals can be domesticated, they have been.

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Are we forgetting about war elephants, camels, various relatives of the goat, cattle since 8000 BC, all in Africa. Desert horses have been bred in Africa since the 8th century.

The african ostrich has been used for meat, eggs, feathers, leather, fat, oil, as a mount, and for racing.

Methods of irrigation, a relatively recent development in western farming, was in use in ancient Egypt.

Archaeological investigation has identified evidence of irrigation where the natural rainfall was insufficient to support crops.

Perennial irrigation was practised in the Mesopotamian plain whereby crops were regularly watered throughout the growing season by coaxing water through a matrix of small channels formed in the field.[4]

Ancient Egyptians practiced Basin irrigation using the flooding of the Nile to inundate land plots which had been surrounded by **s. The flood water was held until the fertile sediment had settled before the surplus was returned to the watercourse.[5] There is evidence of the ancient Egyptian pharaoh Amenemhet III in the twelfth dynasty (about 1800 BCE) using the natural lake of the Faiyum Oasis as a reservoir to store surpluses of water for use during the dry seasons, the lake swelled annually from flooding of the Nile.[6]

The Ancient Nubians developed a form of irrigation by using a waterwheel-like device called a sakia. Irrigation began in Nubia some time between the third and second millennium BCE.[7] It largegly depended upon the flood waters that would flow through the Nile River and other rivers in what is now the Sudan.[8]

In "sub-Saharan Africa" irrigation reached the Niger River region cultures and civilizations by the first or second millennium BCE and was based on wet season flooding and water harvesting.[9][10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrigation

Ancient African Civilizations were some of the most advanced in the world, with long distance trade, great architecture, plumbing, irrigation, writing, art, schools, and great wealth. That's not even counting Egypt. Ethiopia was building stone castles a thousand years before Europeans, they were the third most advanced civilization on earth, in their day they were more advanced than China. Their armies defeated the Romans, the Greeks, and the Persians.

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Are we forgetting about war elephants, camels, various relatives of the goat, cattle since 8000 BC, all in Africa. Desert horses have been bred in Africa since the 8th century.

The african ostrich has been used for meat, eggs, feathers, leather, fat, oil, as a mount, and for racing.

Methods of irrigation, a relatively recent development in western farming, was in use in ancient Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Irrigation

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Ancient African Civilizations were some of the most advanced in the world, with long distance trade, great architecture, plumbing, irrigation, writing, art, schools, and great wealth. That's not even counting Egypt. Ethiopia was building stone castles a thousand years before Europeans, they were the third most advanced civilization on earth, in their day they were more advanced than China. Their armies defeated the Romans, the Greeks, and the Persians.

...So, the Dark Ages, so to speak- is a matter of perspective: There was certainly a slowing of inventions and discoveries, but by no means was it nil. The 1st mention of a handgun was in the 1400's, glasses for nearsighted people, movable type for printing presses, golf balls, oil painting- to name a few-were all discoveries and inventions of this time. Here is my reference-it is pretty interesting - http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=inventions+and+discoveries1300ad-1500ad

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...So, the Dark Ages, so to speak- is a matter of perspective: There was certainly a slowing of inventions and discoveries, but by no means was it nil. The 1st mention of a handgun was in the 1400's, glasses for nearsighted people, movable type for printing presses, golf balls, oil painting- to name a few-were all discoveries and inventions of this time. Here is my reference-it is pretty interesting - http://www.google.co...es1300ad-1500ad

True. the 'Dark Ages' were a period of specifically European history. It's notable that Ethiopia, one of the happiest and most successful civilizations on earth if the reports are to be believed, was also a predominantly Christian civilization. This could be taken as evidence that the religion was not to be blamed, but rather how some people chose to use the religion. Given political interests, class divide, and mores of the day in Europe I think it's probable that the 'Dark Ages' and the atrocities committed by the Church would have happened with or without it.

Edited by Tsukino_Rei

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True. the 'Dark Ages' were a period of specifically European history. It's notable that Ethiopia, one of the happiest and most successful civilizations on earth if the reports are to be believed, was also a predominantly Christian civilization. This could be taken as evidence that the religion was not to be blamed, but rather how some people chose to use the religion. Given political interests, class divide, and mores of the day in Europe I think it's probable that the 'Dark Ages' and the atrocities committed by the Church would have happened with or without it.

I like the follow through and perspective you bring to the discussion. It is unfortunate that in general, people think of Europe and Christian church of the day as being the world's center. Many of the advances and discoveries were-before and since- by Arabic, African, and Asian peoples. The perspective opens us to events and cultures far removed from that most studied, and brings a crucial element to the perspective of history. After reading your posts, I explored those cultures and their gifts to mankind more in depth and found the study enlightening and refreshing...isn't sad that people abuse various implements of power- politics, religion, etc!

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I like the follow through and perspective you bring to the discussion. It is unfortunate that in general, people think of Europe and Christian church of the day as being the world's center. Many of the advances and discoveries were-before and since- by Arabic, African, and Asian peoples. The perspective opens us to events and cultures far removed from that most studied, and brings a crucial element to the perspective of history. After reading your posts, I explored those cultures and their gifts to mankind more in depth and found the study enlightening and refreshing...isn't sad that people abuse various implements of power- politics, religion, etc!

Thank you Windwalker! :cloud9:

Yes, it is very sad. I think that, depending on how they are used, these things have the power to bring as much good as they have evil. Religion, when used correctly, is a tool of philosophical growth and personal enlightenment, teaching us to better know and love ourselves so that we are empowered to better know and love our neighbours. At its best, politics is people coming together as a community and working towards the common goals of building and maintaining happy lives, working out how we can best keep each other safe and trade our resources for individual and common good.

Windwalker--this maybe of interest to you--and others regarding monotheism and concepts of spirit almost 5000BC.

http://hargita.award...s/taltosen.html

blessings,

S

This is completely fascinating. I can tell I'm going to spend a lot of time on this! I am particularly intrigued by the levels of soul.

Edited by Tsukino_Rei

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??? They are facts--there are studies all over the world including US about this. Read the sites below! I have more for serious reading :derisive: Ancient Magyar /Sumerian connection .Fact! Ancient religion. Fact! Taltos. Fact! Actually we have a Taltos, he is the 7 son, of a 7 so , of a seven son going back many, many generations. Fact! He is the living legend of the ancient religion. Fact! --today and a serious school to study the methods. Fact! There are certain pre-requisites to be taken to attend. Fact!

The modern Magyar language is 99% ancient Sumerian--we understand it. Fact! That is why there is so much interest in it linguistically all over the world. Fact!. It is the only language on earth that has not changed.Fact! Check out the Cassiopaea blog, the article there--especially the references at the end!

http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Huns.htm

http://sms.zrc-sazu....MS_03_Kurti.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungarian_prehistory

http://ancientmagyarworld.tripod.com/

http://hungarianhist...nspir/hsp04.htm

http://hungarianhist...nspir/hsp08.htm

http://www.federatio.org/mi_bibl/AlfredToth_EDH_5.pdf

http://users.cwnet.c...lenia/myths.htm

http://www.hunmagyar.org/tor/index.html

http://cassiopaea.or...p?topic=13148.0

Blessings and peace,

S

Edited by sarkany

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