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Fawzo

What Level Of Responsibility Does Christianity Hold For The Dark Ages?

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Nope, they just figured out the method first...(As the Nazi State was not a christian state, and they were getting close, and the USSR was a technically atheist state).

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Nope, they just figured out the method first...(As the Nazi State was not a christian state, and they were getting close, and the USSR was a technically atheist state).

They were very much Christian (German Nazi) by their own standards. In any case, is it a "Let's kill 'em with the A bomb first," mentality? Apparently so. This leads to another question that has bothered me throughout my life. What sort of war would Jesus support?

Edited by Brother Kaman

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No Kaman, The Government was not Christian, their faith was the Nazi Party with some very pagan roots for revised rituals. For example, the Party, particularly the SS replaced the Christian Church as the method marriage replacing with priests with higher ranking SS officers officiating a service rooted in the pagan history of Germany. This was reportedly one of Himmler's favorite duties.

Hit up google...or even the history channel.

Note: Goodwin's law has been achieved.

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No Kaman, The Government was not Christian, their faith was the Nazi Party with some very pagan roots for revised rituals. For example, the Party, particularly the SS replaced the Christian Church as the method marriage replacing with priests with higher ranking SS officers officiating a service rooted in the pagan history of Germany. This was reportedly one of Himmler's favorite duties.

Hit up google...or even the history channel.

Note: Goodwin's law has been achieved.

Actually Josh it was some not very pagan roots that prevailed. The pagan themed stuff was a part of the SS under himmler, an avid occultist, and was not part of the Nazi party as a whole.. It is all attributed to one man Karl Maria Wiligut. Who ripped off Guido von List and his ariosophy and even added List's Wotanism, in his own take on history which went back 300,000 years and that he had direct access too through his DNA, as coming after his religion and persecuting it throughout time.. He was a man who spent a good amount of time in mental institiutions and at one hospitalization being put there by his own wife and when himmler found out about this(to his embarrasment) he forced him to retire. He claimed to follow the "original" pagan religion of germanics called "irminism" by him. He also claimed be of a secret line of German kingship. He had List's followers, neopagans, and other occultists he didn't endorse jalied and put in concentration camps. Even his so called "paganism" had heavily christian overtones. He claimed the bible had originally been written in a form of german and that he worshipped "the Krist." Whom christianity had stolen and made their savior but was actually an ancient germanic god.

The Nazi's were in the majority Christian and endorsed christianity heavily.

Historian Michael Burleigh claims that Nazism used Christianity for political purposes, but such use required that "fundamental tenets were stripped out, but the remaining diffuse religious emotionality had its uses".[126] The Nazism's conception of spirituality was "self-conciously pagan and primitive".[126] However, historian Roger Griffin rejects the claim that Nazism was primarily pagan, noting that although there were some influential neo-paganists in the Nazi Party, such as Heinrich Himmler and Alfred Rosenberg, they represented a minority of the Nazis and that their views did not influence Nazi ideology, and notes that Hitler both denounced Germanic paganism in Mein Kampf and condemned Rosenburg's and Himmler's paganism.[132] Hitler explicitly told Himmler and Rosenberg that such views would only be tolerated by him as their private opinions on religion, and ordered them to cease promoting this in the name of Nazism.[132] This stance by Hitler had existed long prior to his rise to power, for in 1926 he declared:

We are a people of different faiths, but we are one. Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls … We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity …
in fact our movement is Christian
. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people.

—Adolf Hitler, 1926.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Nazi#Religion

Oh and Godwins law always wins out. :) The history channel is fun and all but it's main purpose is entertainment and all of its claims should be further investigated as I have personally seen it many times portray many things falsely and spread misinformation.

Edited by Hrodebert

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This reminds me of a question I asked Edward Teller a few years back when he was here in Toronto--

I asked: `Do you have any regrets about the Hydrogen bomb and its consequences`.

His answer: `No--because the splitting of the atom has made major contribution to all areas of science--It can be used for the benefit of mankind as well as for his destruction. It all depends on man the way he chooses to use it--he may indeed eliminate himself unless he sees its destructive potential.

This is the same answer for Christianity--it is man`s fault and the way he uses it, interprets it--Hitler was a Catholic and the Germans were indeed Christians--and look what they did. It is man that is at fault.

peace,

S

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Actually Josh it was some not very pagan roots that prevailed. The pagan themed stuff was a part of the SS under himmler, an avid occultist, and was not part of the Nazi party as a whole.. It is all attributed to one man Karl Maria Wiligut. Who ripped off Guido von List and his ariosophy and even added List's Wotanism, in his own take on history which went back 300,000 years and that he had direct access too through his DNA, as coming after his religion and persecuting it throughout time.. He was a man who spent a good amount of time in mental institiutions and at one hospitalization being put there by his own wife and when himmler found out about this(to his embarrasment) he forced him to retire. He claimed to follow the "original" pagan religion of germanics called "irminism" by him. He also claimed be of a secret line of German kingship. He had List's followers, neopagans, and other occultists he didn't endorse jalied and put in concentration camps. Even his so called "paganism" had heavily christian overtones. He claimed the bible had originally been written in a form of german and that he worshipped "the Krist." Whom christianity had stolen and made their savior but was actually an ancient germanic god.

The Nazi's were in the majority Christian and endorsed christianity heavily.

http://en.wikipedia....i/Nazi#Religion

Oh and Godwins law always wins out. :) The history channel is fun and all but it's main purpose is entertainment and all of its claims should be further investigated as I have personally seen it many times portray many things falsely and spread misinformation.

Wikipedia...I thought better of you Rob!

so if you want to go that route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_of_Adolf_Hitler

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Nazi_Germany

I will also re-state that I referred to the governments as entities, not the peoples in them.

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Very good Hrodebert!...mebbe I should be taking lessons from you (except for the Wiki-data! :hideingbhindcurtian: ) since you seem to retain far more than I concerning Pagan History! :blush: But getting beyond the Nazi-occultist aspects here...it was what?...just 4-5, 7-8 years ago??...that the Vatican released the very weak apology for the Inquisition and if I remember for some of the atrocities during the Crusades as well.

Hey, any really good 7th-10th century Viking warrior could keep a victim alive through the entire process of the "Blood Eagle" whereby your chest ribs were pulled through your back creating the "wings"...not an easy feat and not very pleasant for the victim either...some as gruesome of not more than the tortures of the Inquisition and I do not recall any apology ever being made for such things...it was "War" after all. Early to middle age Christian leaders, warring Pagans and Nazi's are all a part of history's worst as far as I'm concerned. NONE of them had the "right" to do what they did to their victims and just goes to show what a vicious, ugly beast mankind really is.

Whenever any war mongering pervert comes to power, Harold the Blue Tooth to Adolf, Constantine to Pope Alexander VI, there is going to be atrocities against our fellow man. It's how they "keep the mass in line". Declaring "war" on the middle class in our contemporary society as the White House has done or attempting wiping out and entire race as Adolf did what difference does the rationale make to those that suffer under such "leadership"?

So in answer to your question Fawzo, yes, I firmly believe that the Christian leadership (of the time) should take complete responsibility for contributing to the "Dark Ages" and an apology from today's leadership would at least acknowledge the level of deviant behavior by their predecessors. It won't bring back any of those killed, but it will serve as a lesson to "not do that again".

I'm not sure we'll ever be able to save mankind from itself....but hopefully some of the changes necessary to do so will be coming in the very near future. Of course I reference Dec 21, 2012.

Blessings of Peace,

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NONE of them had the "right" to do what they did to their victims and just goes to show what a vicious, ugly beast mankind really is.

Right on :yes: Al--right on!

blessings,

S

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Wikipedia...I thought better of you Rob!

so if you want to go that route.

http://en.wikipedia....of_Adolf_Hitler

http://en.wikipedia....in_Nazi_Germany

I will also re-state that I referred to the governments as entities, not the peoples in them.

I don't see how you have negated anything I have said.

The Government as an entity was christian. The Nazi party adopted positive christianity as its official doctrine.

Positive Christianity (German: Positives Christentum) was a movement within Nazi Germany which blended ideas of racial purity with Christian doctrine. It was adopted as part of the official party doctrine at the Nazi Party Congress in 1920 to express a worldview which was Christian, non-confessional, virulently anti-Semitic, and oriented to the principle of voluntary association of those with a common racial-ethnic background

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

More wiki for ya!!!

Edited by Hrodebert

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The Vatican has apologized for its sins--and acknowledged it.

Pope says sorry for sins of church

Sweeping apology for attacks on Jews, women and minorities defies theologians' warning

Saving one of his most audacious initiatives for the twilight of his papacy, John Paul II yesterday attempted to purify the soul of the Roman Catholic church by making a sweeping apology for 2,000 years of violence, persecution and blunders.

From the altar of St Peter's Basilica in Rome he led Catholicism into unchartered territory by seeking forgiveness for sins committed against Jews, heretics, women, Gypsies and native peoples.

Fighting through trembles and slurrings caused by Parkinson's disease, the Pope electrified ranks of cardinals and bishops by pleading for a future that would not repeat the mistakes. "Never again," he said.

Centuries of hate and rivalry could not recur in the third millennium. "We forgive and we ask forgiveness. We are asking pardon for the divisions among Christians, for the use of violence that some have committed in the service of truth, and for attitudes of mistrust and hostility assumed towards followers of other religions."

Plea for brotherhood

Defying warnings from some theologians that the unprecedented apology would undermine the church's authority, the 79-year-old pontiff asked God to forgive the persecution of the Jews. "We are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood."

Wearing the purple vestments of lenten mourning, the Pope sought pardon for seven categories of sin: general sins; sins in the service of truth; sins against Christian unity; against the Jews; against respect for love, peace and cultures; against the dignity of women and minorities; and against human rights.

Ethnic groups had endured "contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". Women were "all too often humiliated and marginalised". Trust in wealth and power had obscured the church's responsibility to the poor and oppressed.

There was no reference to homosexuals, who had asked to be included for suffering theocratic violence. The Pope did not identify guilty individuals or name the crusades, the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but the references were clear.

Five Vatican cardinals and two bishops confessed sins on behalf of the church during the ceremony. Cardinal Edward Cassidy recalled the "sufferings of the people of Israel" asked divine pardon for the "sins committed by not a few [Catholics] against the people of the covenant.

peace,

S

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I don't see how you have negated anything I have said.

The Government as an entity was christian. The Nazi party adopted positive christianity as its official doctrine.

http://en.wikipedia....ve_Christianity

More wiki for ya!!!

Re-read that bro..."movement within Nazi Germany" not official Nazi policy. That would be the same as lumping all whites in because there is a movement within white society that preaches racial superiority.

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I dunno, Josh... the part that states: "It was adopted as part of the official party doctrine at the Nazi Party Congress in 1920 to express a worldview which was Christian, non-confessional, virulently anti-Semitic,..." sounds like it was made official policy to me.

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Nice article, Josh,

It appears that Nazi Germany had a policy of first co-opting,

and then exploiting the Christian Religion, which is completely

different from actual participation in genuine Christianity.

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I think the simple fact that Jesus and the apostles were Jews is enough to dispel any idea that there was any Nazi belief in Christianity.

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Good for them. And apparently good for us as well.

Yeah, no one else would do that. Oh wait, the Pagans and the Muslims did it first didn't they. Conversion by the sword, crucifixion, fed to the lions, the sack of Jerusalem, the scattering of the Jews... I guess the Christians didn't invent any of that stuff after all. They were just good learners.

And while we are at it, they did nothing in the Americas that was not done before by the previous inhabitants either.

What they did do that is different was create a world where we are now free to be outraged by such actions.

I never said that Christians had a monopoly on evil. It would be easy to make the opposite case. Not the point. This thread -- at least in the beginning -- is about Christian responsibility for the "Dark Ages." That is what my response was based on.

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The period of the dark ages or the early middle ages ended with the beginning of the crusades and the inquisition. Before this the Catholics shared Europe with the Arians, with most of the ruling barbarian aristocracy being Arian. If you are looking for a reason for the fall of Rome and the barbarian invasion in a single source I would pick the Huns. Their invasion pushed the barbarians into Rome. The exiled barbarians took advantage of Romes weakness and craved up the western empire into their new kingdoms, bringing Arian Christianity with them. The new aristocracy not only allowed the public to keep their traditional Catholic religion in an expression of religious freedom, they also removed the previous Roman barrier between the lower and upper classes for personal meritorious advancement, keeping in line with the Arian religious belief that it is merit alone that delivers salvation. It was only after the Catholic barbarian rulers had conquered and suppressed the Arian barbarians, reunifying Europe under the Roman Church that the dark ages ended. The dark ages might not have ended up seeming so dark to us if more of written history had survived all the book burning of the Catholics. Europe was not so much dark as ruled by non-trinitarians.

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The Vatican has apologized for its sins--and acknowledged it.

Pope says sorry for sins of church

Sweeping apology for attacks on Jews, women and minorities defies theologians' warning

Saving one of his most audacious initiatives for the twilight of his papacy, John Paul II yesterday attempted to purify the soul of the Roman Catholic church by making a sweeping apology for 2,000 years of violence, persecution and blunders.

From the altar of St Peter's Basilica in Rome he led Catholicism into unchartered territory by seeking forgiveness for sins committed against Jews, heretics, women, Gypsies and native peoples.

Fighting through trembles and slurrings caused by Parkinson's disease, the Pope electrified ranks of cardinals and bishops by pleading for a future that would not repeat the mistakes. "Never again," he said.

Centuries of hate and rivalry could not recur in the third millennium. "We forgive and we ask forgiveness. We are asking pardon for the divisions among Christians, for the use of violence that some have committed in the service of truth, and for attitudes of mistrust and hostility assumed towards followers of other religions."

Plea for brotherhood

Defying warnings from some theologians that the unprecedented apology would undermine the church's authority, the 79-year-old pontiff asked God to forgive the persecution of the Jews. "We are deeply saddened by the behaviour of those who in the course of history have caused these children of yours to suffer, and asking your forgiveness we wish to commit ourselves to genuine brotherhood."

Wearing the purple vestments of lenten mourning, the Pope sought pardon for seven categories of sin: general sins; sins in the service of truth; sins against Christian unity; against the Jews; against respect for love, peace and cultures; against the dignity of women and minorities; and against human rights.

Ethnic groups had endured "contempt for their cultures and religious traditions". Women were "all too often humiliated and marginalised". Trust in wealth and power had obscured the church's responsibility to the poor and oppressed.

There was no reference to homosexuals, who had asked to be included for suffering theocratic violence. The Pope did not identify guilty individuals or name the crusades, the Inquisition or the Holocaust, but the references were clear.

Five Vatican cardinals and two bishops confessed sins on behalf of the church during the ceremony. Cardinal Edward Cassidy recalled the "sufferings of the people of Israel" asked divine pardon for the "sins committed by not a few [Catholics] against the people of the covenant.

peace,

S

It is nice that the Pope asked God to forgive his church for crimes against the Jews. Now, if he had actually appologised to the Jews, instead of God, it would have been more impressive. Even more so if the Jews had found out about it.

I also note that among the crimes -- unspecifed -- there was no mention of forced conversion.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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