Liberal Christianity 2

[Fawzo]

Jesus and the other New Testament writers make is a point to mention praying in the name of Jesus. There are promises that action from God that will follow these prayers of faith.

If you are convinced that this model is a failure and does not work, fine. My question to you would then be: "How do you go about it?"

I didn't mean to infer that the method was a failure, but that it seemed to work just as well as any other method. If there were a reliable way to confirm results I would wager that Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims, ACIM pratictioners and other traditions would all have an equal percentage of prayers answered successfully. One would think with the added promised advantage with the use of the name of Jesus that Christian Prayers being answered would be noticeably higher. As I said, you, I and the other Christians here know many instances where two or three or more have gathered in the name of Jesus and petitioned God and got nothing more often than not.

Fundamentalists ask for God's help and expect supernatural things to follow. Liberal Christians seems to use the example of Jesus as a model for them to do thier acts of kindness and charity. I'm not downing that, I think that is admirable.

What confuses me however, is that if your charitable works are only those of which the men and women involved can accomplish, how then to do you ever witness the supernatural in your ministry?

Coolhand I witnessed a little child who my mom use to babysit and had water on the brain and was to be operated on within a few days be engulfed by that Agape Loving light I encountered and the child was healed immediately and needed no operation. I have been involved in other instances where even co-workers have called me to pray for their loved ones who were in deep trouble and there have been other healings as well. I had nothing to do with any of these healings, but I have been privileged enough to petition God that his perfect will be done in each instance. That is what I pray for in most instances "that God's perfect will be done." I do pray that two people in my life lead a life full o health, happiness and love. That is the only thing I ask of God for myself, besides my request that he leads me in his perfect will.

It is becoming more obvious to me that liberal Christians do not see the supernatural because they do not believe in the supernatural. Which would seem to me that they do works of charity and kindness (which is great), but miracles may not be part of the liberal Christian ministry.

I don't know where you get those perceptions. I believe in the supernatural and so do most the liberal Christians I know. Miracles can be found occurring in many belief systems, Christians don't hold any copyrights. See the Miracles of Buddha http://en.wikipedia....acles_of_Buddha. Now you might read these and say to yourself how ridiculous how could anyone believe any of this superstitious nonsense, but if you look at some the events in the Bible objectively you could justifiably ask the same question.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Fawzo

[Bro. Hex]

Miracles like spontaneous cure of a terminal disease,

a cure for which there is no medical explanation.

(I am speaking about my own idea of a miracle...not anyone else's)

[Coolhand]

Miracles like spontaneous cure of a terminal disease,

a cure for which there is no medical explanation.

(I am speaking about my own idea of a miracle...not anyone else's)

In your opinion, are miralces random occurance? Can we in anyway affect the occurance of a miracle?

[Bro. Hex]

In your opinion, are miracles random occurrence?

Can we in anyway affect the occurrence of a miracle?

.

In my opinion, miracles happen whenever God chooses.

Is that "random"? Only God could answer that question.

Can we in any way affect the occurrence of a miracle?

I don't think so.

Only God knows the true answer to that.

As for myself, I choose to believe in a God

who doesn't "play favorites",

who doesn't answer the prayers of some,

while turning a deaf ear to the prayers of others,

who doesn't answer one person's prayer for a new car,

while allowing the child of another petitioner to die.

I cannot believe in a God who would be capable of such a thing.

I choose to believe in a God who does not meddle in the affairs of men.

Edited June 28, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Pete]

During my long experience in Nursing I once worked on a children's ward, which treated young children with brain cancers. I witnessed a lot of pain and suffering and it still bothers me years after. Yes, some did recover inexplicably but they were few and far between and were not of any particular faith.

I witnessed another older lady who was a strong christian who prayed and had been prayed over many times and she eventually grew weary of having to suffer and undergo the constant need for corrective surgery. She eventually decided not to eat and drink and died at her own choice

I have seen people with mental health issues who struggle most of their life by nightmares and the hearing of voices in their head that do not go away. Sure the drugs made it easier but as everyone who has to take drugs knows that comes at a price.

I have witnessed many die over the years in hospital and I have seen a lot of suffering.

Sure I pray for them. Sometimes that is all you can do.

All it has left me with was a feeling of oh! God why do you allow this. I just do not understand God in the biblical terms. It just does not make sense to me.

You mention a few times that you think liberals think this or that but that is to miss what the word liberal means. Liberals are not into defining what we all must believe like fundamentalists do. Hence they are liberals. There is no universal creed for liberals and each makes their own journey and walk with God.

However, there are parts of the bible that many (but not all) do make a connection with:-

Micah 6 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

John 4:16-18

¹⁶And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. ¹⁷In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. ¹⁸There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

John 13:35

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Luke 10:25-28. And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?" What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" He answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.'(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.' " "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live.".

Oh! and before one starts by asking how come some accept this part of the bible and not others the answer is because it makes a connection with their path and journey with God.

Speaking for me to punish all for not using the name of Jesus is not love, it is a dictatorship and and has little to do with loving people (IMO).

Edited June 29, 2010 by Pete

[Bro. Hex]

Thanks Pete, for reminding me of my favorite Bible verse: Micah 6

And what is it that is required of us?

To do justice, love mercy, and walk humbly with our God.

[Raven's Trikes]

Liberals are not into defining what we all must believe like fundamentalists do. Hence they are liberals. There is no universal creed for liberals and each makes their own journey and walk with God.

Great post Pete! You know how they say "you can't hit a homerun everytime", which is true, but that was a grand slam baby! Hope your doing well my friend.

[Dan56]

"Fundamentalist" Christianity is controlling,

condescending and extremely arrogant.

Now that I am getting into the realm of my own personal beliefs, I caution you "not to assume" that All Liberal Christians think like me.

Please do not quote scripture at me telling me why you think otherwise...I already know why you think otherwise. I already know the scripture. I am not asking why Fundamentalist Christians are the way they are. I am just trying to correct your misunderstanding of "who Liberal Christians are";

It would seem that your characterization of fundamentalist being controlling and condescending is an assertion that lumps all fundamentalist into the same category, yet you request that fundamentalist not form any similar conclusions about liberal Christians? While its true that fundamentalist accept all scripture as inspired, we also differ in various interpretations of what means what. To presume that fundamentalist are all identical, may not be anymore accurate than assuming all liberals think alike. And why is it okay for Pete (liberal Christian) to quote scripture (below), but its a no no for a fundamentalist to quote verses to illustrate their point of view?

Micah 6 He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.

John 4:16-18

¹⁶And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him. ¹⁷In this way, love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment, because in this world we are like him. ¹⁸There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

John 13:35

By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

Luke 10:25-28. And one day an authority on the law stood up to put Jesus to the test. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to receive eternal life?" What is written in the Law?" Jesus replied. "How do you understand it?" He answered, " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Love him with all your strength and with all your mind.'(Deuteronomy 6:5) And, 'Love your neighbor as you love yourself.' " "You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do that, and you will live.".

[Pete]

It would seem that your characterization of fundamentalist being controlling and condescending is an assertion that lumps all fundamentalist into the same category, yet you request that fundamentalist not form any similar conclusions about liberal Christians? While its true that fundamentalist accept all scripture as inspired, we also differ in various interpretations of what means what. To presume that fundamentalist are all identical, may not be anymore accurate than assuming all liberals think alike. And why is it okay for Pete (liberal Christian) to quote scripture (below), but its a no no for a fundamentalist to quote verses to illustrate their point of view?

I think you have missed the point I was making Dan.

Fundamentalism is based on the belief that there are fundamental things that one should believe (hence, they are fundamentalists).

Although Christian fundamentalists differ, as you say, they mostly agree on the following:-

• Inerrancy of the Scriptures
• The virgin birth and the deity of Jesus (Isaiah 7:14)
• The doctrine of substitutionary atonement by God's grace and through human faith (Hebrews 9)
• The bodily resurrection of Jesus (Matthew 28)
• The authenticity of Christ's miracles (or, alternatively, his pre-millennial second coming), e.g. healing,^[6] deliverance,^[7] and second coming^[8]

http://en.wikipedia....st_Christianity

These are known as the 5 fundamentals.

Liberals do not insist that there are fundamental things a person must believe and although Liberal Christians may disagree with some or all of the above they see their personal relationship with God as the most important factor in their faith.

Liberals look upon the bible as the writings of people inspired by their faith in God but not the inerrant word of God. So if I quote the bible I am not doing so in a way that says that this is a given, but I am only pointing out that I personally have made a connection with something it may say in the bible or elsewhere.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Pete

[Dan56]

So your saying an all powerful God is a merciless tyrant who will not lift a finger to save men, women, and children going to the gas chambers in millions unless they use the name Jesus and fast.

Many people pray to many gods, but praying 'in Jesus name' differentiates a Christian prayer from other prayers. It simply identifies the authority that a believer is submitting his prayer through. Praying through Jesus name means the same thing as praying according to the Will of God (John 14:13&14). Praying for things that are in agreement with God’s Will is the essence of praying in Jesus name (1 John 5:14-15). We also pray in Jesus name because He and the Holy Spirit intercede for us, according to the Will of God (Romans 8: 26&34).

[Coolhand]

You mention a few times that you think liberals think this or that but that is to miss what the word liberal means. Liberals are not into defining what we all must believe like fundamentalists do. Hence they are liberals. There is no universal creed for liberals and each makes their own journey and walk with God.

Interesting it is. The topic is the second topic about liberal Christianity and apparently to share the differences between liberal Christianity and fundamental Christianity. What I have found is that you cannot discuss the differences because only fundamental Christianity has fundamentals that are nailed down to compare to.

For example: The motorcycle club I ride with, which is a chaplaincy type ministry, is an interdenominational ministry consisting of: Calvary, Church of Christ, Southern Baptists, Baptists, independents, Seventh Day Adventists, and Assembly of God. There are enough theological differences on minor points, but we agree upon and unite under the five fundamentals of Christianity: (1) the virgin birth of Jesus; (2) the deity of Jesus; (3) the inspired Scriptures; (4) the vicarious atoning death of Jesus; (5) and the resurrection of Jesus. These fundamentals give us a basis for fellowship and ministry.

Another example: As a member of the Assemblies of God denomination, we have sixteen fundamental truths that provide a basis for our unity and fellowship: (1)inspired Scriptures; (2) one true God; (3) the deity of Jesus; (4) man sinned willfully; (5) salvation is available to everyone; (6) two ordinances: baptism and communion; (7) Holy Spirit Baptism; (8) speaking in tongues; (9) sanctification begins at salvation; (10) the church's mission; (11) ordained leadership; (12) divine healing; (13) second coming of Christ; (14) millennial reign; (15) final judgment; (16) new heavens and earth.

The point is not to force people into believing these things as some may try to argue. The point is that if a person believes these things they want to find other likeminded people to fellowship with. These are fundamentals that do not have to be rehashed every time one is brought up.

I made a few comments regarding what it appears to me liberal Christianity is about or what liberal Christians believe, and basically from the responses of the posters in this discussion, liberal Christianity is indefinable. If that is the case, why does there need to be two topics started to state that?

What is the basis of fellowship for liberal Christians? Or am I looking at this all wrong and is it the lack of doctrinal foundation that is the basis for liberal Christian fellowship? Or again possibly I could still be assuming that there is a basis for fellowship when there could actually be no basis for fellowship, other than simply liberal Christians are not fundamental Christians. Or again, is it just a moving target?

Edited June 29, 2010 by Coolhand

[Bro. Hex]

It would seem that your characterization of fundamentalist being controlling and condescending is an assertion that lumps all fundamentalist into the same category...To presume that fundamentalist are all identical, may not be anymore accurate than assuming all liberals think alike.

Dan, you are absolutely correct.

I was speaking in anger, and I was wrong to do so.

My bad.

[Bro. Hex]

What I have found is that you cannot discuss the differences because only fundamental Christianity has fundamentals that are nailed down to compare to.

You consider that to be a sufficient reason not to discuss differences?

Really?

I don't.

Why would that "end the conversation"?

Do you think that is the only difference... the absence of rigid dogma?

And what about "similarities"?

I am willing to bet that we both revere Micah 6.

At least I hope that is true.

I am willing to bet that we both revere "the Golden Rule".

[RabbiO]

What is the basis of fellowship for liberal Christians? Or am I looking at this all wrong and is it the lack of doctrinal foundation that is the basis for liberal Christian fellowship? Or again possibly I could still be assuming that there is a basis for fellowship when there could actually be no basis for fellowship, other than simply liberal Christians are not fundamental Christians. Or again, is it just a moving target?

With all due respect, I think this is where I hop off the bus on this thread - for awhile at least - I don't think I have anything to contribute on this.

And so my friends, להתרות- I'll see you soon. (Feel free to regard that as either a promise or a threat.)

Edited June 29, 2010 by RabbiO

[Coolhand]

You consider that to be a sufficient reason not to discuss differences?

Really?

I don't.

Why would that "end the conversation"?

Do you think that is the only difference... the absence of rigid dogma?

And what about "similarities"?

I am willing to bet that we both revere Micah 6.

At least I hope that is true.

I am willing to bet that we both revere "the Golden Rule".

I would enjoy that. However, I didn't think that was the purpose of this discussion:

Thought I would offer a few links of the many that are on the topic of Liberal Christianity with the hope that people can more clearly see how Liberal Christianity differs from Conservative.

[Coolhand]

I am willing to bet that we both revere Micah 6.

Are you sure we would both revere Micah 6:

The Lord’s Case Against Israel

6 Listen to what the Lord says:

“Stand up, plead your case before the mountains;

let the hills hear what you have to say.

2 Hear, O mountains, the Lord’s accusation;

listen, you everlasting foundations of the earth.

For the Lord has a case against his people;

he is lodging a charge against Israel.

3 “My people, what have I done to you?

How have I burdened you? Answer me.

4 I brought you up out of Egypt

and redeemed you from the land of slavery.

I sent Moses to lead you,

also Aaron and Miriam.

5 My people, remember

what Balak king of Moab counseled

and what Balaam son of Beor answered.

Remember your journey from **tim to Gilgal,

that you may know the righteous acts of the Lord.”

6 With what shall I come before the Lord

and bow down before the exalted God?

Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,

with calves a year old?

7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,

with ten thousand rivers of oil?

Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,

the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the Lord require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

Israel’s Guilt and Punishment

9 Listen! The Lord is calling to the city—

and to fear your name is wisdom—

“Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.



10 Am I still to forget, O wicked house,

your ill-gotten treasures

and the short ephah, which is

accursed?

11 Shall I acquit a man with dishonest scales,

with a bag of false weights?

12 Her rich men are violent;

her people are liars

and their tongues speak deceitfully.

13 Therefore, I have begun to destroy you,

to ruin you because of your sins.

14 You will eat but not be satisfied;

your stomach will still be empty.

You will store up but save nothing,

because what you save I will give to the sword.

15 You will plant but not harvest;

you will press olives but not use the oil on yourselves,

you will crush grapes but not drink the wine.

16 You have observed the statutes of Omri

and all the practices of Ahab’s house,

and you have followed their traditions.

Therefore I will give you over to ruin

and your people to derision;

you will bear the scorn of the nations.”

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Mic 6:1-16.

[Tsukino_Rei]

Are you sure we would both revere Micah 6:

The Lord’s Case Against Israel

6 Listen to what the Lord says:

“Stand up, plead your case before the mountains;

let the hills hear what you have to say.

2 Hear, O mountains, the Lord’s accusation;

listen, you everlasting foundations of the earth.

For the Lord has a case against his people;

he is lodging a charge against Israel.

3 “My people, what have I done to you?

How have I burdened you? Answer me.

4 I brought you up out of Egypt

and redeemed you from the land of slavery.

I sent Moses to lead you,

also Aaron and Miriam.

5 My people, remember

what Balak king of Moab counseled

and what Balaam son of Beor answered.

Remember your journey from **tim to Gilgal,

that you may know the righteous acts of the Lord.”

6 With what shall I come before the Lord

and bow down before the exalted God?

Shall I come before him with burnt offerings,

with calves a year old?

7 Will the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,

with ten thousand rivers of oil?

Shall I offer my firstborn for my transgression,

the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?

8 He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the Lord require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

Israel’s Guilt and Punishment

9 Listen! The Lord is calling to the city—

and to fear your name is wisdom—

“Heed the rod and the One who appointed it.



10 Am I still to forget, O wicked house,

your ill-gotten treasures

and the short ephah, which is

accursed?

11 Shall I acquit a man with dishonest scales,

with a bag of false weights?

12 Her rich men are violent;

her people are liars

and their tongues speak deceitfully.

13 Therefore, I have begun to destroy you,

to ruin you because of your sins.

14 You will eat but not be satisfied;

your stomach will still be empty.

You will store up but save nothing,

because what you save I will give to the sword.

15 You will plant but not harvest;

you will press olives but not use the oil on yourselves,

you will crush grapes but not drink the wine.

16 You have observed the statutes of Omri

and all the practices of Ahab’s house,

and you have followed their traditions.

Therefore I will give you over to ruin

and your people to derision;

you will bear the scorn of the nations.”

The Holy Bible : New International Version (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1996, c1984), Mic 6:1-16.

You can't not realize that that was condescending.

[RevRainbow]

Hey rabbi, wait up!

[Bro. Hex]

Are you sure we would both revere Micah 6: (?)

Okay, I can see that I must be more precise;

Micah 6:8

As told in the version that follows,

which represents a telling that I can honor

(and which says nothing about any "guilt of Israel")

American King James Version

He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

I bet we can both revere that.

BTW: The following is from a NON-Zondervan copy

of the New International Version (©1984):

He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

(It says nothing about guilt of Israel).

Edited June 29, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Coolhand]

Okay, I can see that I must be more precise;

Micah 6:8

He has showed you, O man, what is good.

And what does the LORD require of you?

To act justly and to love mercy

and to walk humbly with your God.

Yeah, I like that. I think that pretty much summs it up. Ever wonder why specifically the title "LORD" is used there? As opposed to God, or LORD God, or Lord.