Fawzo Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 If you believe in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus, is it that same Spirit which convinced you that the bible isn't true? Yes that same Spirit that led Jesus to show others how the organize religion and scriptures of his day aren't God's will also show many of us that the Bible and the church of today aren't it either.Spiritually mature beings should live by Spirit and truth and being true to themselves. Sacred texts are like training wheels there comes a time when you have to atempt to live without it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 The circular argument that causes the issue (IMO) is the one that says the bible is the word of God and we should know that because the bible says it. There are so many books that declare they are the word of God, but does that make it so?I am sure that you would not expect me to agree with all the other books that say they are the word of God and only want me to agree with the bible, but in essence you have no more going for you than they have (IMO).Does one have to believe that the bible is an accurate account to learn the lessons of it? I would say no but I guess you would say yes. Hence the debate keeps spinning. To accuse me by saying I have no belief because of my position is for me an error. I could accuse you that without the book you have no basis for a faith in God, but I do not.I believe you would like me to say I have no faith because it would allow you to go back to saying that a fundamentalist position is the only one that counts. Sorry Dan, but for me to say that would be a lie and something I guess you would not want me to do so.I was just interested in how/what a person basis the Spirit of Jesus on, when they reject the scriptures which describe it? We know Christ through the written Word, and you wrote that you believe in the 'same' Spirit that was and is in Jesus? If the bible is false, then I don't understand how a person could identify a spirit as being the 'same' Spirit that dwelt in Christ? How do you define the Spirit of Christ without using the bible as a reference? it goes for fear of being led astray and losing salvation... that's not faith. That's willing suspension of disbelief. You can't fear something unless you believe its real. Fear of God requires faith in God. Yes that same Spirit that led Jesus to show others how the organize religion and scriptures of his day aren't God's will also show many of us that the Bible and the church of today aren't it either. Circular logic imo. Your saying that the 'SAME' Spirit which led Jesus to show others what isn't God's Will, also show's you that the bible isn't true? If so, then you can't possibly identify your spirit and being the 'same' as Christ, since you've rejected the only tangible testimony of what Spirit led Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 16, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) I was just interested in how/what a person basis the Spirit of Jesus on, when they reject the scriptures which describe it? We know Christ through the written Word, and you wrote that you believe in the 'same' Spirit that was and is in Jesus? If the bible is false, then I don't understand how a person could identify a spirit as being the 'same' Spirit that dwelt in Christ? How do you define the Spirit of Christ without using the bible as a reference? You can't fear something unless you believe its real. Fear of God requires faith in God. Circular logic imo. Your saying that the 'SAME' Spirit which led Jesus to show others what isn't God's Will, also show's you that the bible isn't true? If so, then you can't possibly identify your spirit and being the 'same' as Christ, since you've rejected the only tangible testimony of what Spirit led Jesus.Does the account of Jesus have to be fully accurate for the lessons we learn from the stories of Jesus to mean something to someone. You seem to me to be very concrete as to my understanding of the bible. For someone to reject that it is fully accurate is not the same as saying it has no worth. I enjoy reading the bible but that does not mean it is the only truth for me.Tsukino Rei, I loved your post. Thank you. Edited March 16, 2010 by Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Michael Sky Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) I was just interested in how/what a person basis the Spirit of Jesus on, when they reject the scriptures which describe it? We know Christ through the written Word, and you wrote that you believe in the 'same' Spirit that was and is in Jesus? If the bible is false, then I don't understand how a person could identify a spirit as being the 'same' Spirit that dwelt in Christ? How do you define the Spirit of Christ without using the bible as a reference? Dan let me be the first ( i would assume ) to inform you that there are other methods of introduction to the Christ Spirit... He did a GREAT thing for the souls on this planet, which is immediately apparent to some people..... no bible necessary for knowing HIM... You can't fear something unless you believe its real. Fear of God requires faith in God. I have NO fear of my God... HE doesn't require it... actually discourages it for our own benefit.... not healthy... Circular logic imo. Your saying that the 'SAME' Spirit which led Jesus to show others what isn't God's Will, also show's you that the bible isn't true? If so, then you can't possibly identify your spirit and being the 'same' as Christ, since you've rejected the only tangible testimony of what Spirit led Jesus.Personal experience.... and spiritual instruction... there is no mistake when the Spirit enters you, or you enter into spirit....I am perfectly clear that we don't have the same ideas about things Dan, but from my perspective you are spouting off about a book, when I have personal experience to inform me..( that's definitely not meant as insult, simply how i feel, and I never phrase things that way, just showing you how i could respond as you do...).. In my opinion personal experience trumps another's word every time.... my point being - My beliefs on the subject ARE every bit as valid as yours ( I could be rude and say " more valid ").I understand why you believe the Bible is necessary to discover the Christ, however many folks don't feel that way...and lastly Dan.... You may not accept it because of your beliefs... but you would benefit greatly from some historical exploration of the church which brings you these ideas.......and dan, trace you faith back to it's inception... what was the cause of the of the split from the church which spawned your particular belief????because if i'm right - you are not Catholic..... Edited March 16, 2010 by Brother Michael Sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukino_Rei Posted March 16, 2010 Report Share Posted March 16, 2010 (edited) You can't fear something unless you believe its real. Fear of God requires faith in God. There's an entire industry of scary movies which show that's not true. Willing suspension of disbelief for the duration of the film is all that's needed to generate fear.The idea of something is very often enough; the hint of a possibility, the ability to imagine that it may be true. Even tragedies, designed to generate cartharsis which is a blend of pity and fear, depend on the audiences ability to suspend their disbelief even though they know what they are watching isn't real. Edited March 16, 2010 by Tsukino_Rei Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevRainbow Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Methinks "fear" of God could be better understood as "reverential awe." I am not afraid of God, I am overwhelmed by Him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Methinks "fear" of God could be better understood as "reverential awe." I am not afraid of God, I am overwhelmed by Him. I agree with you, because most places where the bible uses the word 'fear', it is better translated 'revere'.Does the account of Jesus have to be fully accurate for the lessons we learn from the stories of Jesus to mean something to someone. You seem to me to be very concrete as to my understanding of the bible. For someone to reject that it is fully accurate is not the same as saying it has no worth. I enjoy reading the bible but that does not mean it is the only truth for me. That's cool, and it makes sense to me... I mistakenly assumed that biblical stories were irrelevant to you because you didn't believe them, but I suppose that even a questionable story has meaning if a person finds value in it.There's an entire industry of scary movies which show that's not true. Willing suspension of disbelief for the duration of the film is all that's needed to generate fear.The idea of something is very often enough; the hint of a possibility, the ability to imagine that it may be true. Even tragedies, designed to generate cartharsis which is a blend of pity and fear, depend on the audiences ability to suspend their disbelief even though they know what they are watching isn't real. I understand what your saying.. Its possible to fear the unknown via imagination, but I think there's a distinct difference between being frightened by a movie, and the reality of genuine fear.Dan let me be the first ( i would assume ) to inform you that there are other methods of introduction to the Christ Spirit... He did a GREAT thing for the souls on this planet, which is immediately apparent to some people..... no bible necessary for knowing HIM...This is true, there's no question to me that God reveals himself in Spirit, but I also believe the bible is a useful tool (record) in gaining understanding and clarification. And you are correct, I am not Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven's Trikes Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Pete, if you don't want to talk to me anymore I can understand..it hurts, but I can understand. As you should know, I'm working on building a Real congregation in Baltimore, and hopefully a sister branch in Brooklyn.Ok enough about me, carry o0n... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Michael Sky Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Pete, if you don't want to talk to me anymore I can understand..it hurts, but I can understand. As you should know, I'm working on building a Real congregation in Baltimore, and hopefully a sister branch in Brooklyn.Ok enough about me, carry o0n...folks?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawzo Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 (edited) Pete, if you don't want to talk to me anymore I can understand..it hurts, but I can understand. As you should know, I'm working on building a Real congregation in Baltimore, and hopefully a sister branch in Brooklyn.Ok enough about me, carry o0n... 5 references to yourself in that one short paragraph. Interesting! Edited March 17, 2010 by Fawzo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Posted March 17, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Pete, if you don't want to talk to me anymore I can understand..it hurts, but I can understand. As you should know, I'm working on building a Real congregation in Baltimore, and hopefully a sister branch in Brooklyn.Ok enough about me, carry o0n...There is nothing to understand and it is good to hear from you. There was no hostile feeling when the ULC east forum went down and I miss people there. I am pleased with the news that the congregation is growing. Sorry I did not respond quickly. I guess I got caught up in the theme of this forum. I will write. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukino_Rei Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 I understand what your saying.. Its possible to fear the unknown via imagination, but I think there's a distinct difference between being frightened by a movie, and the reality of genuine fear.Genuine deception can also produce genuine fear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Genuine deception can also produce genuine fear. Agreed, believing a lie can produce fear, but the Truth sets you free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsukino_Rei Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 Agreed, believing a lie can produce fear, but the Truth sets you free.Which is one reason why Liberal Christian philosophy is to passionately and fearlessly seek after the Truth wherever it may lead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven's Trikes Posted March 17, 2010 Report Share Posted March 17, 2010 There is nothing to understand and it is good to hear from you. There was no hostile feeling when the ULC east forum went down and I miss people there. I am pleased with the news that the congregation is growing. Sorry I did not respond quickly. I guess I got caught up in the theme of this forum. I will write.Thanks Pete, I was worried. 5 references to yourself in that one short paragraph. Interesting!well. it wasn't pretty but it worked. You can't hit a home run everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Michael Sky Posted March 18, 2010 Report Share Posted March 18, 2010 Thanks Pete, I was worried. well. it wasn't pretty but it worked. You can't hit a home run everytime. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpenter Posted March 21, 2010 Report Share Posted March 21, 2010 ok, fawzo, that made me feel guilty..... Carpenter, I once, as a small child, agreed with you... however I have less patience with " you're going to hell " talk than i once did.... what you are spouting is dangerous, ignorant, and just plain rude... I disagree with a lot of folks on here, however except for a little dry humor and repetition, I hope I haven't actively disrespected anyone except Dattaswami...... I would have been ok with the statement had it said anything similar to " I believe "....I would not like to be a reason for you to avoid this forum... and i could actally enjoy what you have to say... but Pete's swell folk too.....------------------------------WOW! It’s nice to see people actually talking about the Bible in a constructive way for a change, or at the least thinking. A Liberal Christian is a person that believes in more than one God, but you already know that. And how many Gods do we have? I guess it depends on a person, weather he is fleshly or spiritually minded! Let me give you a clue, if you believe in more that one God, and there is only one God, you just might make him very upset. I’m sure not going to judge, that has already been done. I feel Pete is a good person also, and I don't think anybody is actually going to a place you call HELL! I know the Bible reads that some will go to a place called Hell a little earlier than others, but it also reads that most people are simply born over and over until they overcome the flesh and become spirit. But it’s only a very few hard working souls that receive that reward. You remember the verse in John, ye must be born again, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. If people would only try a little and read between the lines they would know these things. But you know how this ole world works, people want the easy way out. If a person is fleshly minded they let others teach them and take the easy way out, or no way at all. It’s just the way people are. I didn’t mean to say anything bad about anyone, just making a statement on what I’ve learned from the spirit view of matters. You ever read a Bible with heart, I mean like you really care about your future, and possibly the future of others around you. Wow, can you believe in a life where we live forever??? That would be awesome, and if you don’t want it, that’s ok. I suspect that if a time comes where if people stand before a maker and never took the time to find out the truth, well you can say that you did it your way! I did it my way! Ha! Sorry folks, I like everybody and hope for the best for all. But I chose to try my best to do it his way thank you. Enjoy life! Carpenter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan56 Posted March 21, 2010 Report Share Posted March 21, 2010 but it also reads that most people are simply born over and over until they overcome the flesh and become spirit. Where does the bible say that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fawzo Posted March 21, 2010 Report Share Posted March 21, 2010 ------------------------------Let me give you a clue, if you believe in more that one God, and there is only one God, you just might make him very upset.Why would an omniscient God ever get upset? It makes no sense for him to get upset over anything if he is omniscient unless he is a drama queen.He knows everything that is going to happen before it happens and he programmed all the parameteres for the game he created himself. If he gets upset with anyone or anything it should be himself over his programming capabilities. Even if in his program he has created the greatest chaotic quantum random generator and something happens he was not expecting he should never get upset as it was his doing. But being omniscient means that something he was not expecting would never arise!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Michael Sky Posted March 21, 2010 Report Share Posted March 21, 2010 ------------------------------WOW! It’s nice to see people actually talking about the Bible in a constructive way for a change, or at the least thinking. A Liberal Christian is a person that believes in more than one God, but you already know that. And how many Gods do we have? I guess it depends on a person, weather he is fleshly or spiritually minded! Let me give you a clue, if you believe in more that one God, and there is only one God, you just might make him very upset. I’m sure not going to judge, that has already been done. I feel Pete is a good person also, and I don't think anybody is actually going to a place you call HELL! I know the Bible reads that some will go to a place called Hell a little earlier than others, but it also reads that most people are simply born over and over until they overcome the flesh and become spirit. But it’s only a very few hard working souls that receive that reward. You remember the verse in John, ye must be born again, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. If people would only try a little and read between the lines they would know these things. But you know how this ole world works, people want the easy way out. If a person is fleshly minded they let others teach them and take the easy way out, or no way at all. It’s just the way people are. I didn’t mean to say anything bad about anyone, just making a statement on what I’ve learned from the spirit view of matters. You ever read a Bible with heart, I mean like you really care about your future, and possibly the future of others around you. Wow, can you believe in a life where we live forever??? That would be awesome, and if you don’t want it, that’s ok. I suspect that if a time comes where if people stand before a maker and never took the time to find out the truth, well you can say that you did it your way! I did it my way! Ha! Sorry folks, I like everybody and hope for the best for all. But I chose to try my best to do it his way thank you. Enjoy life! Carpenter thats what all this is about, sharing and asking questions...i'm curious about the one god comment though...and we've thoroughly discussed the John question...I feel I AM in touch with the part of me which HAS been alive forever.....and in my personal opinion, HELL is the absence of the TRUTH, Hell is all around you, Hell is not realizing you are god.... and thinking someone must save you....I look forward to reading your posts for a while, as im not sure i fully understand your position... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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