Liberal Christianity

[Pete]

The fact that Jesus Christ said it should give you an inkling that something might be there, even if it goes against the materialist/realist thinking with which we were all enculcated in our present world paradigm.

namaste

Jesus was supposed to have spat on a piece of mud and used it to cure a person's eye. I think I would have a few law suites should I try it.

Like I say I am not ruling things out. All I am asking is to see the evidence that a thing works first. Sure all things maybe a vibration/energy at some level but that does not mean it is a similar frequency to the cat purr or that it is a tangible and usable vibration that can be controlled by the will of a person. It maybe that Reiki ends up showing a scientific bases to its affect but that again does not mean every other method works also.

Yes, I have had to think in a particular way when it comes to health or I get sued if I cannot justify my actions. That does not mean that what I can justify is all there is to know.

I have just not seen any quantifiable evidence for the laying on of hands or anyone who is prepared to do so under scientific scrutiny.

[Dan56]

Jesus was supposed to have spat on a piece of mud and used it to cure a person's eye. I think I would have a few law suites should I try it.

Like I say I am not ruling things out. All I am asking is to see the evidence that a thing works first. Sure all things maybe a vibration/energy at some level but that does not mean it is a similar frequency to the cat purr or that it is a tangible and usable vibration that can be controlled by the will of a person. It maybe that Reiki ends up showing a scientific bases to its affect but that again does not mean every other method works also.

Yes, I have had to think in a particular way when it comes to health or I get sued if I cannot justify my actions. That does not mean that what I can justify is all there is to know.

I have just not seen any quantifiable evidence for the laying on of hands or anyone who is prepared to do so under scientific scrutiny.

I concur, if I was hospitalized and the doctors brought a cat into my room to help me out, I'd ask to be transferred to another hospital immediately. I once got to observe the 'laying on of hands' by a religious group at a hospital, but the recipient died the next day. Seeing is believing, believing that it didn't work. I'm guessing that the reason Jesus wasn't sued for that mud treatment, was because it actually worked.

[Brother Michael Sky]

Anyone want a thread about energy healing, i'll be happy to participate......

[RevRainbow]

Ok help me through my fog then. The following statement in Romans is true for everyone including both targeted audiences in the scriptures:

For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Now both have created idols and worshiped them and have no excuse for not knowing the God of Creation, but because the Greeks in Acts created idols and built an altar to the "unknown" God, they get winked at while the Roman audience who didn't worsip the true God in any manner get the full wrath of God.

This is still quite a strecth to me.

The verse in Romans would mean that the Greeks in Acts still created temples to false Gods with knowledge of the true God and a wink is all they get.

Well, I thought about it and am kind of in a bit of a fog myself! I know you are missing something and I perceive I am also. The best explanation I can give is that the Romans verse applied to a rejected knowledge of the One God and in Acts, ignorance (gotta love those Greeks!) of that knowledge. I do understand how one can read contradiction in the two verses, but I just don't see any contradiction. So, let's have another cup of coffee.

Edited January 20, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

Well, I thought about it and am kind of in a bit of a fog myself! I know you are missing something and I perceive I am also. The best explanation I can give is that the Romans verse applied to a rejected knowledge of the One God and in Acts, ignorance (gotta love those Greeks!) of that knowledge. I do understand how one can read contradiction in the two verses, but I just don't see any contradiction. So, let's have another cup of coffee.

Here's mud in your eye

[RevRainbow]

Here's mud in your eye

LOL. Very deep statement, Fawzo (I get it)! There is one supposition that came to mind. What if In Romans Paul is talking about the antedeluvian folks and in Acts, he is talking post deluge? Just a thought (and a little more fog).

Edited January 20, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

LOL. Very deep statement, Fawzo (I get it)! There is one supposition that came to mind. What if In Romans Paul is talking about the antedeluvian folks and in Acts, he is talking post deluge? Just a thought (and a little more fog).

For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. Romans 1:20 (ESV)

I myself would think that the verse above would be speaking of every human ever created with eyesight. No matter on which side of the deluge they were born.

This verse also speaks to me that there could be no excuse for creating any icons to an "Unknown God" or any oher type of idol as mankind is without excuse for distorting the image and nature of God for wich there has been clear and undeniable evidence since the creation of the world for all to see.

I would like to note that Luke the writer of Acts was known as the Reconciler. He tried to smooth over the friction between various groups and peoples. He worked at smoothing over the friction between Paul and the Apostles and a few other relationships. So the fact he tried to smooth over the relationship between the Greeks who worshipped pagans and God isn't surprising to me. He even contradicts Pauls own teachings in other places, like whether Paul went to Jesrusalem to get the blessings of the Apostles before Paul started his ministry and at least two other points of conflict.

[nestingwave]

I concur, if I was hospitalized and the doctors brought a cat into my room to help me out, I'd ask to be transferred to another hospital immediately. I once got to observe the 'laying on of hands' by a religious group at a hospital, but the recipient died the next day. Seeing is believing, believing that it didn't work. I'm guessing that the reason Jesus wasn't sued for that mud treatment, was because it actually worked.

Sometimes the biggest healing of all is a peaceful death knowing that others care for you. When you declare that "it didn't work" what you mean is "it didn't work according to my narrow concept of how it should work." There is a big difference.

namaste

[nestingwave]

Anyone want a thread about energy healing, i'll be happy to participate......

OK. Check by tomorrow in "Stories Beliefs and Trials." It will be entitled: "Energetic Healing." I will greatly appreciate your participation, brother Sky, but I also invite virulent opposers, skeptics, near-skeptics, non-skeptics and anyone else. No exclusivity here.

I am just a student of energetic healing with only small experience. However, I wish to increase my understanding and so I ask for lots of input and questions, a few of which I can give a partial answer according to my own limited experience but most of which I cannot.

Some folks have pieces to the puzzle that they don't even presently know they have.

We may even be able to devise some practical energetic healing experiments.

I think we owe it to our extremely ill world and all her suffering children to explore this as thoroughly as possible and even if we only get slightly into it, something of real value could be achieved. Or, it might fall flatter than a pancake, as other healing threads have before.

Most folks in our present culture of materialism put their faith in pharmaceuticals and knives even when those items are often proven to be highly counterproductive.

The religious often tend to relegate anything that doesn't fit this paradigm to the "supernatural" and thus beyond their ability to approach or understand except through begging petition of they know not what.

namaste

[RevRainbow]

Enjoy yourself. That is what life is for IMHO.

What songs do you enjoy singing most? Karaoke scares me, even the word sends chills down my spine.

Well, Fawzo (took me a while,sorry), I sing what my lesbian friends like. Mostly, I do a mean Willie Nelson impression (the ladies like my Willie), and some Johnny Cash. I also do a few duets (sometimes I have to do the girl part) like Proud Mary (I'm Ike), or Paradise by the Dashboard Lights, Jackson and even Sonny and Cher or "Picture (which I usually do Cheryl Crow's part)." My fear is I'll wind up on YouTube one day.

Edited January 20, 2010 by RevRainbow

[RabbiO]

Well, Fawzo (took me a while,sorry), I sing what my lesbian friends like. Mostly, I do a mean Willie Nelson impression

Willie Nelson is mean?? I know he's grizzled, but mean??

Of course I thought kareoke was Carrie O'Kee, an Irish singer, so you can tell I'm out of the loop.

(Apparently my recent health problems did not lead to an ephiphinal moment regarding humor. It's as bad as it ever was. Besides, there aren't too many openings for a contribution by a rabbi on Liberal Christian thread!)

Edited January 20, 2010 by RabbiO

[RevRainbow]

Willie Nelson is mean?? I know he's grizzled, but mean??

Of course I thought kareoke was Carrie O'Kee, an Irish singer, so you can tell I'm out of the loop.

(Apparently my recent health problems did not lead to an ephiphinal moment regarding humor. It's as bad as it ever was. Besides, there aren't too many openings for a contribution by a rabbi on Liberal Christian thread!)

I knew you would pop up sooner or later! I can almost see you smiling with a knowledgeable wink. You always bring a grin and special insight to the discussion, rabbi. I am always gratified when you enter the discussion when Christians are arguing what Jews think!

[Pete]

I knew you would pop up sooner or later! I can almost see you smiling with a knowledgeable wink. You always bring a grin and special insight to the discussion, rabbi. I am always gratified when you enter the discussion when Christians are arguing what Jews think!

Surely Christians have been doing this for years.

I enjoyed Rabbio comments and also recognise that no one speaks for all Jews (as the comment seems to suggest), even Rabbio's, in the same way as us Christians cannot get it together to agree on everything. However, removing the understanding of Jews from Christianity is a bit like severing ones left from ones right. For me it all goes to show what might of been if we could only have got it together from the beginning (a pox on the Roman Empire).

[squirrel]

Liberal Christianity

There is much comment as to what is a Liberal Christian or indeed does such a thing exist. Some say we are not Christian.

I cannot speak for all Liberals, so I hope people will understand that I speak from a person viewpoint.

Much of the criticism that is laid against the liberal school of thought is that the concept is not biblical. The answer, I give to that is that is, being not biblical is the whole point, as liberals describe the bible as a collection of documents from differing recourses, written by man, choreographed to fit some of the Old Testament writings, and not the actual infallible words of God. Conservatives, on the hand, argue strongly that the Bible is the actual inerrant word of God. Liberals and Conservatives are therefore polarised at differing ends of the spectrum that is Christian theology.

Liberals do not argue that the bible is not inspiring but argue it is the fallible words of inspired men writing about their experience of Judeo-Christianity. Liberals may quote the bible but only where it has meaning to the topic being discussed but do not use it as the ultimate authority from which no argument can be placed. Liberals usually recognise that the gospels were written after Jesus' death and by people who never actually met Jesus. The nearest writer to the time of Jesus was Paul but I also recognise that Paul did not see eye to eye with those of the disciples in Jerusalem who actually met Jesus (Gal 1&2).

Conservatives argue that "2 Timothy 3:16" gives authority to the bible being true. This has led many atheists to recognise the circular argument they receive when talking to conservatives. "How do you know the bible is inerrant?" "Well! Because the bible says it is." "But how do you know this is so?" " Well! Because the bible says it is", and so the argument goes on and on with no further progress.

Liberals see Conservative Christianity has having become a faith about a book and not about the force of inspiration that inspired Jesus and the disciples. This is seen as a mistake, as liberals recognise that Gospels did not exist at the time of Jesus or his disciples, but were steadily written over a two hundred year period after the death of Jesus. The Gospels were not seen as holy scripts by the church until 400yrs later when they were canonised. The earliest gospel of Mark (which is seen as a building block for the synoptic gospels of Matthew and Luke) did not even declare that Jesus arose from the cross. The gospel ended when the tomb was found to be empty and thus leaving a mystery rather than a revelation of fact. The resurrection was added later.

Liberals usually believe in the word of God portrayed in the giving of love and in social initiatives. They recognised that God is said to have spoken through the hearts of mankind long before Matthew, Mark, Luke and John existed and even before Abraham and Isaac and see Christianity at a progressive revelation and not one just stuck in the words written 2000 years ago or more. Jesus is seen as being inspired by God and yet, even he did not follow the OT to the letter, which led to conflict with the religious leaders of the time. Jesus is felt to be not inspired blindly and only by writings of his time but by their practical applications and how they could be interpreted in relation to the love of God. For liberals, one of the main sayings that Jesus is supposed to have said is about loving God and loving your neighbour as yourself.

(Matthew 22:36-40 (Niv)

³⁶"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" ³⁷Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'^[a]38This is the first and greatest commandment. ³⁹And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'^[b]40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.")

The question this saying brings up for me, is the bible about loving ones neighbour as oneself? Does the bibles law and prophets truly support this notion? Sure, these verses can be found in the OT and the New Testament writings alike but the question I ask does the bible live up to this quote? (For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your Neighbor as yourself." (Galatians 5:14 RSV), If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture,"You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well. (James 2:8 RSV), Deuteronomy 6:5 "And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might" and "Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself. I am the LORD. (Niv).)

Let us take the sixth commandment "thou shalt not kill", which seems to me a perfectly good place to build a premise of loving ones neighbour and forgiving one another, but the bible does not leave it there It goes on to say:-

Any person who curseth his mother or father, must be killed. (Leviticus 20:9)

If a man cheats on his wife, or vise versa, both the man and the woman must die. (Leviticus 20:10)

If a man sleeps with his father's wife... both him and his father's wife is to be put to death. (Leviticus 20:11)

If a man sleeps with his wife and her mother they are all to be burnt to death. (Leviticus 20:14)

If a man or woman has sex with an animal, both human and animal must be killed. (Leviticus 20:15-16).

Psychics, wizards, and so on are to be stoned to death. (Leviticus 20:27)

If a priest's daughter is a whore, she is to be burnt at the stake. (Leviticus 21:9)

Anyone who curses or blasphemes God, should be stoned to death by the community. (Leviticus 24:14-16)

The killing of homosexuals is condoned and encouraged in the wonderful laws of Leviticus. (Leviticus 20:13)

If you find out a city worships a different god, destroy the city and kill all of it's inhabitants... even the animals. (Deuteronomy 13:12-15)

Kill anyone with a different religion. (Deuteronomy 17:2-7)

If anyone, even your own family suggests worshipping another God, kill them. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10) and so on.

It is not hard to find such verses in the Bible but the question for me still stands. Does the Bible preach a consistent message from God, that we should love ones neighbour as oneself? If the Bible is the word of God and God is said not to change, then surely, it is a relevant question of which I am personally led to the answer, No!

This does not mean I feel we should throw away all the teachings in the Bible but that we should read with a critical eye on what is important. For me, the question is always, is what I am reading consistent with Jesus' said commandment. For I believe it is in this commandment that Jesus has expressed the love God has for each of us. God is said to be spirit and I believe that Spirit is love. I am not going to pretend that my life always portrays a picture of love but I feel the ideal of Jesus' commandment worth the continued seeking, because it there I feel we see the real Jesus. I may not always have all the answers but I ready to admit that rather than just quoting a lot of biblical quotes and leaving people feel like a sinner because they have not understood. I call myself a Christian because I believe, I believe, in that same Spirit that inspired Jesus' to question and challenge things and to work for that love that he is said to and to work for the same commandment he is said to have saw as important. Liberals in my opinion are not Christians who have gone astray or backsliders but genuine deeply faithful seekers of truth. Fallible we maybe, human definitely, but with God's love we remain hopeful. We do not say that conservatives are not Christians, even though some say that of us. We just seek the truth in the Spirit of God rather than text alone. As Paul Tillich said, even if they found the actual bones of Jesus, it would not shake his faith in him.

I believe love matters to God more than adherence to any text and as the bible puts it:-

( "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1 John 4:8. "And we have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him." 1 John 4:16).

Wow, thank you for your message Pete, as a current seeker of 'truth' through the Spirit and love, I am grateful for the clarity of your message. I know that liberals herald 'love' as the ultimate goal and the ultimate teacher is the Spirit,and this is my quest, I am far from living by this wisdom, but it is my desire to. Thanks, Squirrel

[Pete]

Wow, thank you for your message Pete, as a current seeker of 'truth' through the Spirit and love, I am grateful for the clarity of your message. I know that liberals herald 'love' as the ultimate goal and the ultimate teacher is the Spirit,and this is my quest, I am far from living by this wisdom, but it is my desire to. Thanks, Squirrel

It is a journey. No one is perfect in this life and I have to struggle over things too. I believe love is the power of the spirit and to seek its use is to live in the spirit. As 1 John 4:16 puts it " ¹⁶And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him."

For me, it is foolish for me to say this is something I always achieve but I do respect love and believe it is a worthy goal to aim for. With God as a source of love, I believe we will succeed when we are wholly with God (IMO). I do not believe in the notion that saints lived lives without error. They were human and also given to the personal struggles of this life. I believe God understands that and loves us just the same. If one is love, as God is, what else can one do .

Edited February 18, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

It is a journey. No one is perfect in this life and I have to struggle over things too. I believe love is the power of the spirit and to seek its use is to live in the spirit. As 1 John 4:16 puts it " ¹⁶And so we know and rely on the love God has for us.

God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in him."

For me, it is foolish for me to say this is something I always achieve but I do respect love and believe it is a worthy goal to aim for. With God as a source of love, I believe we will succeed when we are wholly with God (IMO). I do not believe in the notion that saints lived lives without error. They were human and also given to the personal struggles of this life. I believe God understands that and loves us just the same. If one is love, as God is, what else can one do .

Very inspiring Pete. Thank you. My post here started out as three short paragraphs, but then my creative joy took over and......

Love is the Universal Force Field that carries with it the overall intention of God for the highest good of all beings. It exists eternally everywhere and everywhen.

It is unceasing.

However, beings such as ourselves become distracted easily by illusory holograms and simply forget.

Therefore, along comes a reminder, such as Jesus or you or me.

And this process of forgetting and remembering is what we chose to do. Yes we did.

Why?

Because the illusory "maya" produces contrast with that which IS--the ONE.

To use an analogy, we are all on our own individual mind-holodecks which are projecting the appearance of reality but are only a creation of our own very limited minds--a virtual reality video game in which we have become so involved that we forgot ourselves.

And all our individual holodecks are different in their outward projection because we all bring our various variety of individual life experiences to them.

However, they overlap and interact ... and this creative contrast, with the ONE, causes our lives never to become boring, static, petrified, uncreative nor taken for granted--and thus, appreciation arises (manifested as our driving inspiration and happiness) in order to co-create and learn to be in alignment with the divine intention once again.

This is the dynamic process of Spiritual growth which cannot occur without forgetting and remembering.

Creation cannot take place at all without the One Source taking on the veil of duality. ( often called "maya") However, "maya" is NOT negative as many often think, but quite essential, if there is to be any creatures of time and space at all.

It is an entirely morphing entropic and neg-entropic ocean of seething energies until we focus it into the worlds we create on our own individual mind-holodecs.

And that is the kind of creative being you are.

That is the kind of creative being we all are. But we forgot.

What kind of world do you wish to create? How is the present one you are creating now working out for you?

Most of us live the dynamic of being victims of outside circumstances. There ARE no outside circumstances. Nope. It is ALL occurring right between your ears. What you are experiencing is entirely your OWN manufactured product.

I know this is very hard for some to believe because it is totally contrary to our long time conditioning. But, once we realize this, we can then create from the standpoint of our heart's intention and when our individual heart's intention is aligned with the Universal intention===heaven is brought down to earth according to whatever your conceptualization is capable of.

And no, it is NOT perfection---only yet another creation---a less dysfunctional one with an entirely different vision than the present one.

In this dynamic process of Spiritual growth, we can eventually relax and allow in order to become outlets of the Most High God--a living testimony to all beings.

And therefore "heaven on earth" is entirely possible.

So, why is it that Almighty God needs the Great Creation at all?

You'll have to ask Almighty God that.

But, perhaps our All-Parent would rather dance a tango than sit around and be lonely and bored. hmmm. Some would say that is a human projection (an anthropomophism)--but---much more likely, it is vice versa (a theomorphism)-- human beings having been created in Almighty God's image and likeness. Yes, there is only ONE I AM and YOU ARE IT. hmmm, so am I.

So, I view this as meaning two things: 1) we are creative beings and are only limited in our creations by our forgetfulness which disempowers us and 2) when we discover our own God-given power to create, we can easily bring an end to our planet earth's present suicidal dysfunction--and, in fact, are required to do so by the urgent downward spiraling circumstances. We will then fulfill our destiny which is to become caregivers to Mother Earth and all her beings, instead of exploiters, rapists and destroyers as is now the case. In other words, "peace on earth and goodwill toward men"--not total perfection, just basic sanity.

Knowing who and what we are is no longer an option--and without this struggle to overcome and become we learn nothing and make no progress in our realtionship with the Spirit. None.

When Jesus said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in Heaven is perfect" he was speaking of finding out WHO and WHAT YOU'RE TRUE IDENTITY IS== I AM.

He was not speaking of trying to follow some rules and regulations in a state of blind forgetfulness as religion teaches.

Unlike the constant advertisments of many religions, there is not and cannot be any "get-out-of-jail-free" tickets. If there were, then the entire teaching of the son-of-man about taking personal responsibility, as well as the same teaching by many many spiritual beings from many ages all over the earth, would be in vain. I don't think so.

So, "salvation" is not being whisked out of bad and uncomfortable situations, which has long been the religious brain-washing, but "salvation" is taking on the personal responsibility to overcome and thus relax and allowing oneself to be-come---that is wake-up to who and what you already are.

And, just to add this: SUFFERING is NOT REQUIRED as religion also highly advertises. We bring ALL of our suffering onto ourselves through one thing and one thing only---our forgetfulness of who and what we really are.

namaste

[Bro. Hex]

(translated into "American" English...for no good reason, really...(no offense intended Pete)

Surely Christians have been doing this for years.

I enjoyed Rabbio comments and also recognise that no one speaks for all Jews (as the comment seems to suggest), even Rabbio's, in the same way as (we) Christians cannot "get it together" to agree on everything. However, removing the understanding of Jews from Christianity is a bit like severing one's left from one's right. For me it all goes to show what might (have) been if we could only have (gotten) it together from the beginning (a pox on the Roman Empire).

Just a couple of (mostly pointless) points (i'm bored!)

(1) I'm sure that Rev. Rainbow didn't "intend" to suggest that Rabbio "was speaking for all Jews"

(2) We Christians cannot "get it together" to agree on ANYTHING! (seems like)

[Fawzo]

(2) We Christians cannot "get it together" to agree on ANYTHING! (seems like)

Thats why it is such a miracle if you get two or three to agree on anything in Jesus's name

[nestingwave]

Just a couple of (mostly pointless) points (i'm bored!)

(1) I'm sure that Rev. Rainbow didn't "intend" to suggest that Rabbio "was speaking for all Jews"

(2) We Christians cannot "get it together" to agree on ANYTHING! (seems like)

Yet, quite a few of us (Christians and non-Christians alike) agree fully on some things, such as the vision of peace on earth and goodwill toward men and offering allowance to others to have their own views and opinions.

So, as far as the "ianity" goes, its very nature insists upon mechanical conformity to man-regulated doctrines and dogmas and, of course, NO ONE can ever agree on that no matter how many wars and pogroms are initiated in order to force it into being.

Therefore, the divisive ianity finds it impossible to "get it together" and have the same vision, intention and desire.

The inculcated brain-washing that leads so many into a belief system that religious "correctness" is essential, prevents it.

And allowing ourselves to become de-programmed is difficult because a part of that inner programming is a virus of sheer fright that if you do the "wrong" thing the Almighty God (of luuuv) will roast you over a fire forever and ever. Ridiculous, I know, and yet it has been installed in our minds--a failsafe mechanism to insure the longevity of our religious programming to keep us obedient slaves for as long as possible.

Even when human beings have a deep inner longing in their hearts for the practical expression of genuine oneness, this inculcated mechanistic programming prevents the practical expression of that longing.

It is for this reason that I can only call the "ianity" a Satanic Adversary whose tentacles work even on a subconscious level to imprison the bodies, minds and souls of men--and it is not an accident but a very clever scheme thought out by brilliant men with very high IQs (but petrified hearts) who fully understand the mechanics of how the human mind works.

They ridicule the rest of humanity because the "dumb sheople" are rarely able to see through it even when it is so obvious. The fact is, you CAN'T see through it with your mind--only with your intuitive heart. Therefore, all around you is the concerted effort, by your wardens, to desensitize the slaves and turn their hearts to stone like theirs.

Homo sapiens sapiens is a slave race and this is presently a prison-planet--the Buddhist call it "a HELL." It is "a hell" of our OWN making.

This is what must be overcome and only our revelation of consciousness can accomplish that on an individual and collective basis.

But, the good news is that, here in the end of days, many are beginning to awaken from their long slumber. The de-programming is well under way--and these discussions are facilitating that process. So, do not despair, look up, your salvation draweth neigh. Just relax and allow. Appreciate the wonder of it all.

All of this---everything--- is happening right between your ears and you are a powerful creator. Much more powerful than you now know or can even imagine.

namaste

[Pete]

I think Nestingwaves post is very pertinent. We each make a mental map of how we believe the world is and construct processes as to how best to make sense of it. Much of this is based upon our own experiences and our own personal journeys. These processes are a help for the main but it has to be recognized that the sense we make in our heads is the sense we make of things and not the actual world that exists outside of ourselves. The sense we make of things can change, even when the world does not do so at the same rate. Yet, many times we only re-address the thought processes we have when we hit a crisis or a big change in our circumstances that challenges us. I believe these events are important as I think without controversy and a regular challenge to our thought process there is little personal growth, either spiritually or cognitively. The fact that not all Jews, Christians, Hindus, Muslims and in every belief and none belief there is divergence is a positive thing, because without such divergence there is also no growth. I mean would we keep coming to the ULC if everyone was agreeing with everyone to the point where all had been said by some one else? There is only so many times one can say I agree, before it loses its novelty.

The fact that we may argue the point does not mean I do not think all in the ULC are wonderful people and I am not grateful to everyone. We ask the questions and think the thoughts where many other churches and religious bodies fear to tread (IMO) and grow accordingly.