Liberal Christianity

[nestingwave]

No doubt that Jesus offered himself for the world, but a world of individuals, who will be judged independently of one another.

Yes. We all judge ourselves in the light of Universal Truth. This prepares us for the lessons of our next incarnation into earthen vessels. The "second death" is when we judge ourselves in the light of Universal Truth and choose to be no more, not eternal torment as advertised by the "ianity" and their twistings of the scriptures.

This is what Yeshua taught not my supposition. Of course, neither you, nor I really know, do we? Not until we consciously experience it after this life is over. A state which we currently know nothing at all about, only heresay. We always create our own experience because, being created in the image and likeness of Almighty God we too are creative beings. As a man thinks, so is he because all this world we see and experience with our five senses came through thought, sound (word) and before that.... from the unknowable mystery which is the First Source.

I agree that Jesus was not a scapegoat who provided a free pass to everyone, but he did say that 'Whosoever believes on Him and repents of their sins, will not perish'.

Dan, can you share your concept of what "Whosoever believes on Him" means?

I believe the forgiveness was for their ignorance of what they were doing.

Exactly and not only their doing of crucifying Jesus but the ignorance governing their whole lives that had led up to that particular dark moment.

Like innocent children who are incapable of understanding and haven't the knowledge to distinguish right from wrong.

Yes. Ignorance again. Once you see that there is Universal Law---God's Law of Cause and Effect--you become less ignorant and capable of more discernment about the consequences of your own actions.

You no longer "obey" simply because you were told to obey but because you WANT to be in harmony with God and the Great Creation.

At first you want to obey simply to avoid negative consequences... but.... a little further along, you act willingly with full confidence because joy unspeakable and full of glory blossoms within you and you are struck with awe beyond words.

Because you become attuned to the Universal frequency of peace on earth and goodwill toward men--- a very joyous state of consciousness indeed. And that is the world soon to come as the old one vaporizes due to its own suicidal dysfunction.

Not a far-away heavenup in the sky but realm existing in a different frequency which is already right here on a transformed and very beautiful Mother Earth presently mostly out of our sight but not always ---- totally unlike our present Mother Earth who is presently in painful travail to bring forth. An entirely new thought form which is in total synchronization with the Galactic cycles instead of the completely man-made artifical time-line we are now experiencing that disconnects us from ourselves, one another and the rest of the Universe---expressed by the Julian and Gregorian calendar, the calendar of vibrational dissociation, war, greed, control, fear and ignorance. You know, our perishing civilization?

Overcoming ignorance is just like what any child learns by growing up. The child has all the experiences of making mistakes and correcting them--i.e. LEARNING from the mistakes made. And that is the Life Process and should never be despised. It is what our evolution of consciousness (our SPIRITUAL GROWTH) is all about.

OVERCOMING so that we can BECOME.

As ignorance is overcome, we no longer blindly "obey" God's Law simply because he "said" it or Moses "said" it or Jesus "said" it in a reportedly holy book---but----obedience turns to willing participation when we come to the realization that, indeed, WE are responsible for our own creations, whatever they are, and with whatsoever judgements we make on other beings, the rebounding effect comes right back upon us every time. Either sooner or later. It is automatic and cannot fail.

However... other actions, such as repentance, can change that rebounding effect of the previous actions.

This in Buddhism is called the Law of Karma. You perform some action and there is a reaction. However, that reaction is not necessarily instant in your linear time-line. Its rebounding effect can be instant---or---not until many years later. But it is certain to rebound... unless.... another action mitigates it.

You act and before the full reaction occurs you do another action that changes the reaction rebounding from the first action.

But this has to be entirely a matter of a genuine change of heart. You can't "fake it" no matter how hard you try. By trying to fake it you are only increasing the rebounding effect of the first action and the power of the rebound is compiled and increased.

You cheat someone, steal from someone else to pay the first person back, rob a bank to repay the person you stole from and just as you start to relax thinking you got it made.... WHAM!!!! A meteor falls out of the sky and smashes you to bits.

EVERY action has an equal reaction. So, if you murder someone, you may go to the electric chair.... or you may make yourself very useful in prison having creatively discovered a way to uplift many people.

Maybe you can make people laugh, comfort people, teach your language to others, or carve a beautiful sculpture out of a piece of wood or whatever. And it does not necessarily have to be something which has anything at all to do with "religion."

And then suddenly some circumstance happens mysteriously---a synchronicity---and the death sentence is suddenly over. You get an unexpected reprieve. Life behind bars instead. A synchronicity has occurred. Surprise. A pleasant surprise.

Maybe the governor's conscience was activated because he discovered that he had been sending innocent people to the electric chair and the new methods of using DNA evidence had proved it. Maybe HIS conscience told him, "I can no longer kill human beings no matter how bad a criminal they are. I will give them life imprisonment instead. Killing another human being is just plain wrong and I can no longer do it because I have human blood on my hands due to my ignorance."

So, instead of being executed your life becomes an upliftment to all beings.

This has happened to people who never believed in Christianity or any religion whatsoever. Why? Because the Law of Cause and Effect, like Almighty God, is absolutely no respector of persons and works regardless of what you believe or don't believe.

You get according to what you give. And that's every human being on earth regardless of their "belief" system or whether of not thay "believe" this or that.

You can be the most pious, praying-every-hour, giving to the poor Christian.... and still ruin your life and the life of your family by running off to Flourida with the Sunday School teacher's wife. Happens all the time. Some Karma is instant.

"...but forgive us our trespasses AS WE forgive those who trespass against us."

This is God's Law of Cause and Effect in action. If we forgive, then we are forgiven. Period. If we do not forgive, then we retain our own sins. God doesn't need to do it. God is not "punishing" us.... WE ARE punishing ourselves in our DARK IGNORANCE.

What ignorance? Ignorance of how the Great Creation of which we are an integral part.... operates.

Know thy SELF oh man, for therein you will discover Almighty God and your individual limitations in this unlimited Universe.

But, of course, we have to learn to also forgive ourselves and that takes honest dealing with and understanding the Universal Law of Cause and Effect.

"As ye sow, so shall ye also reap."

This is our individual personal responsibility which is not done away with due to the "blood" of Jesus.

How, pray tell, can ANYONE avoid being an ignorant child? Without certain life experiences we can NEVER grow up. NEVER. Those experiences are 100% necessary in order for us to learn the difference in the quality of the creations we create---either heaven or hell.... FOR OURSELVES.

We are responsible for our own actions. The "devil" didn't make us do anything and Almighty God didn't either. And if we were constantly being "saved" from the consequences of our own actions, we would never pass kindergarten.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE CIRCUMSTANCES WE CREATE ACCORDING TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHO AND WHAT WE ARE AND HOW THIS UNIVERSE OPERATES.

And whether we like this or not, like breathing, it is one of life's requirements.

That's the great lesson we are ALL learning, whether we know it or not.

That's why Jesus is far less "upset" with sin than with our ignorance.

Boozing, shooting heroin, fornicating, partying, stealing, deceiving, murdering, making war, destroying the earth, expliting others, ignoring the homeless, being a religious hypocrite is all due to one thing and one thing only---- OUR IGNORANCE.

Our many daily sins are due to our basic IGNORANCE about who and what we are and how The Almighty God operates in the Great Creation in which we are totally immersed as a living fragment.

If we actually knew what the SURE consequences of all those destructive things were, we would never want to do them in the first place because we could then see the damage we are doing to ourselves and all other creatures.

If we persist in our ignorance we can evntually choose to annihilate ourselves and be no more. Our choice.

And if we became aware that the potential power we have is exactly the same as that of the son-of-man we would becomes healers exactly like him.

HE said so.

Do we believe what He said?

Or do we have some doctrine that says, "well, those miracles were for then but now they are passed away because we have the Haaaowly Biable."

However, the son-of-man says, "that which I do you will do also."

I have seen it proven beyond the shadow of a doubt.

What is a so-called "miracle" anyway?

It is the energetic life-power of the Universe manifested through you, although it is beyond your present knowledge about how the Universe works. That's all it is.

Almighty God never does anything that the servants of Almighty God can do on his/her behalf. That's what the servants of Almighty God are about because they, like you and I, have Almighty God dwelling right INSIDE them at the very core of their Being. There is no need to constantly offer begging prays to a Father-Figure way off "up ther" in outer space somewhere sitting on a golden throne dispensing blessings and curses.

There is no need to "beg" at all. We only "beg" because we are ignorant and do not understand that Almighty God is constantly flowing every iota of our Source being who Creator the whole Universe, right into us and cares not what color you hair is nor how smart you are nor how holy you are.

It is up to us to process that dispensation and serve either Almighty God or serve our ego-self interests. We and only we decide which way to go.

It is not in any way super-natural as advertised. It is not begging a God "up there in the sky" to do something and he finally reluctantly says, "oh okay."

He NEVER withholds one iota of Himself from anyone for any reason--- even the most vile ignorant sinner.

It is WE that determine our individual interface with our own Source which is God, the All-Parent.

And I can say that----having both witnessed and participated.

Yeshua was an energetic healer filled with organic life-power. He laid hands on the sick and they recovered. You can do likewise if you live his life-style and manner of eating, drinking, fasting, meditating, praying, etc.

But, even if you do not live that life-style, so-called "miracles" can still happen----but not at will----only as occasional synchronicities when all the elements are mysteriously lined up and resonating---but you have no idea how.

And, in my case, being no where near having the pure life-style of the son-of-man, the healings I have seen happen which some would call "miraculous" occurred only about six or seven times in my entire life.

So, if we want the Almighty to take away our "sins" we have to deal with our own ignorance first. And, of course we already have by studying the Bible, fellowshipping, being alert to the needs of others, seeking with all our heart, soul and mind, etc.

Dealing with our own ignorance is what the Buddhists and many many other peoples across the world call Self-Realization. Coming face to face with the Universal SELF--- the One-Source of All-That-Is which resides within us not just "with" us externally. In the Aramaic, the name Immanuel means just that. God WITHIN us. Yet another distortion in the Greek to disconnect us from the reality of our One Source.

This is my very limited, very narrow and very biased point of view. That is the state of all of our points of view. I am not unique in that and neither is anyone else.

Since they sinned in ignorance of the truth, Jesus did not hold them accountable.

He forgave them, not because they were "sinners" but because they were ignorant and knew not what they were doing. Their understanding was in darkness.

They weren't "innocent" but had created an action that was to automatically rebound upon them due to the Law of Cause and Effect which they were ignorant of. But their reaction to having been forgiven created more action and in this case completely mitgated the rebounding effects by introducing an opposite charge, so to speak.

Oh, they may have heard the Law of Moses all their lives, but remained ignorant of the reality of Almighty God residing right inside them. Many in the Christ--ianity of today are the same.

But suddenly they were confronted with LOVE ITSELF and melted right into it. Immediate their thought was changed and began to put out such a strong positive and genuine thankfulness and appreciation as to dissolve the rebounding Karma of their former evil deeds. Their re-action to Jesus Christ was a new and transformed action, that negated their former actions of dark ignorance.

This is the principle of how God's Law of Cause and Effect (Karma) works precisely and continually. The slightest disturbance of the Universal Energy Field creates a ripple. Evil thoughts can be canceled out by good thoughts and vice versa.

The tremendous negativity going on right now in the world effect us more than we realize but many are starting to spend time together in meditation to mitigate these evil thought waves assaulting us from every direction.

As a man thinks in his heart.... so IS he.

So, if he doesn't like how he is, the first thing he must do is change his own thought-froms because every thought has a Karmic effect---- no matter how tiny and weak---- or big and powerful it is.

If they had known better and willingly killed the Son of God, then I believe there would be consequences unless they repented.

Inwardly, they did know better becuase God their Source is within them. Only they refused to pay attention to that still small voice. And the Law of Cause and effect always operates. Ignorance does not mitigate Karma only a different action and new thinking.

Dan, there were still consequences anyway because "ignorance of the Law is no excuse." Jesus didn't need nor desire to suspend the Law of Cause and Effect at all. The Law of Cause and Effect is the very Will of Almighty God. Every cause has an effect. Every action has a consequence.... good, bad... or.... in between.

However..... the evil actions can be mitigated in their rebounding effect when they are replaced by a different thought-form.

The Universal Law of Cause and Effect was not suspended because they didn't know better. It still works. Always. Why? Because it is the way the entire Universe works all the time continually. God is not some separated man with a white beard up in the sky deciding each issue as it occurs, but a Prime Source with built in Law and Intention that is Intelligent, Loving and Compassionate ALL THE TIME beyond anything we can possibly imagine.

But, if you remember (and I'm sure you do) many of those who had crucified him, at the end, became full of awe and said, "SURELY THIS WAS THE SON-OF-GOD!" So, their conscience was CONVICTED and then they could repent and be totally healed.

And because Jesus redeemed the world from the "sin against love" the way of repentance was made open to all, regardless of their belief system, and, among more than a few, suddenly their eyes were opened. Revelation. Enlightenment. An "AHA!" A DIVINE "AHA!"

"GOD FORGIVE ME, I SEE IT NOW!"

And God says, "OK, go and sin no more."

And then, several people who had been full of religious fanaticism, fear and hatred became new people with an entirely new direction. The old thinking no longer applied. Compassion replaced hatred. Love replaced fear.

So, if someone was in that crowd and said, "this man was a wicked fraud and now we finally got rid of him," the common Christ--ianity judgement is that "that sinner is hard of heart and headed to eternal torture and probably deserves to be eternally separated from Almighty God forever and ever!"

I say, no. This is absurd. There is NOTHING sparated from the ONE. Nothing.

He only has to experience the school of hard-knocks a bit more and he too will get his eyes open. And what is that "school of hard knocks?"

Why, this prison planet, of course and reincarnation is more than a religious doctrine but a basic cyclic principle of the entire Great Creation---and now even a scientifically proven fact.

For the most part, remembering our past lives is completely unimportant and a great distraction because we are a completely NEW personality each time round. Different personality, same spirit undergoing a new learning experience in a new bioform created to contain that particular human spirit according to the purpose of our new incarnation.

And reincarnation was indeed the very teaching of the son-of-man and Gutama Buddha as well and many many other spiritual teachers all throughout history, including one of the earliest Roman Catholic Fathers who was right at the transition where the Roman doctrine supplanted the fact of reincarnation---Origen who knew very well that reincarnation was the teaching of Jesus as did St. John of the Cross, St. Francis and quite a few more who were smart enough to be very quiet about it lest they burn.

Scholars only know definitely about Origen who was the most prolific of all the Holy Fathers and blurted it right out there, although later when the full dogmatization occurred, the Church forced him to backpeddle or else.

Many others believed in reincarnation also, it also being a part of Judaism, but, as you know, it became called a so-called "gnostic heresy" that sent people to the burning stake as a clear example of what happens to those who dare to have a creative thought outside the "Holy" status quo.

This was their ianity compassion and mercy in blazing action. Judge the tree by the fruit it bears. That's some mighty evil fruit indeed, I'd say. This is so well documented from many sources of history that it is just a matter of whether a person is ready to be real or not.

All of Satan's kingdom couldn't do a better job.

Some of those present must have been convicted in their conscience and said, "this is just plain wrong."

So, I pray-----"Great All-Parent forgive those who dwelt in fear and anxienty and felt it necessary to brutally destroy all disagreement, for they were ignorant and thought there would be no consequences for their violence, personal ambitions, lies and deceptions in the name of the Most High. And forgive us, as we forgive them, because they are only a mirror of our own ignorance also. Thank you for presenting us with this very useful lesson."

But that religious control paradigm did act as a catalyst to make us not-so-willing to just blindly accept something simply because a "professional" Holy Theologian told us so.

And the ones burned forgave their tormentors also for the same reason the son-of-man forgave those standing around the cross.

namaste

[Bro. Hex]

I guess I see it different to Nestingwave because I have not done the same area of study that he appears to have done. I call myself a Christian because I believe God resided within Jesus and spoke through him. I believe Jesus preached that God can reside within, hence, the meaning of the kingdom of heaven within and also in the future.

Pete, there are many reasons why any of us who call ourselves Christians, do so,

and your reason for calling yourself one is "just as valid" as anyone else's.

Some of the finest Christians who ever lived (we refer to some of them as "saints")

had no formal education, and no depth of study whatsoever.

Some were simple fishermen.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Youch]

Hi Hooka.

I think the question is not standards for me. I do actually believe in some standards and try to live accordingly. The question for me is based on whether the understanding and language of the bible as written a least 2000 yrs ago stands up against understandings we have today. Does one have to stick to an understanding that you believe has been largely invented by Rome or am I free to find my path in the direction that I feel I am being led. Can I debate understandings from people who would talk about the firment under our feet and the firment above the skies, in bible times with today's understandings. Also I question some of the premisses that have (IMO) held up the progress of the faith, but at the same time of doing so, taking care not to throw the baby out with the bathwater (so to speak).

I guess it is something that matters to us weirdees.

Hi Pete!

Please know I am not criticizing ANYONE's belief systems. I'm just a curious onlooker.

Regarding the bolded part above: Why do you suppose the "understandings of today" are different than when the texts were written? Are we less able to understand today, or are we confused by the encroachment of alternatives?

I kinda agree, that if a persons faith makes them a better person, that is a good thing. But since the bible teaches us of Christ, it just seems hypocritical for a person to say "I'm a Christian, but I don't believe the bible". But I also understand that many prefer the Gnostic gospels, and are turned-off by religious dogma and the traditions of men. As you mentioned, the liberal outlook is a self-serving choice which allows a person to pick and choose their own standards while avoiding the particulars. Being a fundamentalist, I obviously belief that the particulars matter, otherwise we are all taking our own way, and our own way doesn't lead to salvation.

Nor does it lead to any sort of unified religion. It becomes a free-for-all. Watered down standards and definitions that mean whatever fits easiest.

Perhaps well-intentioned spiritual people attach themselves to religious affiliations, even when the square block does not fit into the round hole, because it offers credibility or importance to their specific spiritual belief?

So, dear folks such as Dan wonder why we quote the Bible at all if we realize it has been manipulated? The answer is easy. We know exactly where the manipulation took place and the rest is a matter of one's discernment through their own spirituality. Each finds their own peace. But spirituality does not impose itself upon other beings and that is one of the main differences between spirituality and man-made "religion."

namaste

Well said!!

[nestingwave]

The whole idea of whether to call myself a christian or not is rather clear to me. In my metaphysical view I don't call myself a christian because I believe Jesus walked the planet, and neither do I because of his teachings.... I do because Jesus was the one to bring this world the CHRIST spirit.... a dispensation of LOVE, a change from the old paradigm. I see, understand, and wholeheartedly wish to live in the true meaning of the CHRIST SPIRIT. I am not there yet, but as do the buddhist's - I PRACTICE my belief...

I do REALLY like that about Buddhists... they never claim they have been " saved " - they PRACTICE their beliefs all their life... wouldn't it be humorous to get to classical christian heaven and find the place filled with Buddhists..... ( now that's funny, I don't care who you are....) no halos just saffron robes everywhere..... whew, sometimes i amuse myself....

Hi again, brother Sky. I keep coming back to your post here and getting a good laugh. Thanks again.

I can see all those saffron robed Buddhist Monks sitting in meditation and chanting or being silent.

Suddenly, a themonuclear bomb explodes right over the Monastary.

And, there they are.... right in the center of the Golden City with the holy angles flitting about the bejeweled throne of Almighty God. Jesus Christ is sitting at the right hand of The Father radiating white light in pulsating waves of blissful compassion that travel out over the Holy City.

One Monk exhales and turns to the other and says, "where are we, anyway?"

"In Christian heaven I guess, Rinpoche," says the Monk beside him.

The Monk next to him says,

"Looks the same to me as it always did."

The little Monk on the back row spinning a prayer wheel speaks up and says,

"tomorrow lets go on over to Jewish heaven, they have good bagels with cream cheese there."

The first Monk inhales deeply and out-breathes,

"YUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM..."

namaste

[nestingwave]

The Bible is a mess Dan and here is a perfect example of two scriptures which totally contradict one another. In Acts you have the author telling us that people have worshipped pagans in ignorance and God merely winks at this ignorance. Then we have the scripture in Romans where the author tells us there is no excuse for any such ignorance as nature itself testifies of God.

You may ignore all the contradictions that have been presented to you, but they are there and many are irreconcilable. Is there any wonder the Bible breeds confusion on many fronts?

As usual Fawzo you are so right on. Brother, this quote you gave of Paul on Mars hill is absolutely tremendous. It clearly shows the realtionship between what we call "Christian" and the wisdom of the East. It shows this merging was indeed a part of original Christian understanding. This scripture clearly shows the Source of All=That= Is and it shows that our Source (Almighty God) is OMNIPRESENT as well as omnipotent and omnicient. That is, every place at every time past, present and future---and in all the multifarious dimensions of time and space seen and unseen.

This goes along exactly with how I view this whole Christ "controversy" if I may call it that. It is no "controversy" to me but it surely is a constant squabbling among religionists of various flavors.

I think many in the ianity completely forget this wonderful speaking of Paul as part of their Bible. Although it is unlike any speech anywhere in the Bible it is echoed throughout the entire Bible, Old Testament and New Testament, when one digs it out. Paul shows he is completely familiar with all that has gone before and is very clear about what it means.

Where this silly ianity came from is clear. It came from Empirial Rome long after Paul, James, John and the rest.

If the Christians want to know what the gathering of the called-out ones IS, (you know... the "church") they should take a look at all the writings outside the Bible about the first assembly in Jerusalem where James took the lead. There was NO hierarchy. None. It was a local gathering of the called-out ones, not an organization or a denomiation or an institution. They met in people's homes.

James, like his brother Yeshua was a vegan, believed in reincarnation and had contact with the Northern Essenes also. James was likewise an energetic healer. Although the Jews after the crucifixtion didn't much like the Christians, due to the fact that many blamed them for the crucifixion, JAMES was always allowed in the temple because there was no doubt of his continual contact and interface with Almighty God within and the Jews knew and recognized that completely. He was considered a Holy man by Jews, Gentiles and Christians alike.

It was those Northern Essenes of Mt. Carmel that many times hosted the Buddhist Monks because they were of like-mind with them. That tradition up on Mr. Carmel continues to this day as an almost unknown branch of the followers of Yeshua, totally overshadowed by the Roman ianity which, of course has became the "official" status quo world-wide.

So, here is your quote of Paul's message on Mars hill. I couldn't help but make some comments in it. Please take them as satirical humor. Everyone should read and contemplate this message Paul gave on Mars hill and then ask themselves, " is this our present understanding of Christ-ianity? Most here at ULC will probably say, yes indeed it is, however in most denominational circles it is not. I am highlighting some of the words that really spark me.

[it is late here and the further I go on, the more surrealistic I become... but.... I haven't had a drop I promise. (hmmm... maybe I should have.....)]

22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious. 23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

This is the Ein Soph of the ancients--- the UNKNOWABLE. But this UNKNOWABLE becomes KNOWN through the annointed Christ who is the very visible physical outlet, the expression of the First Source. And, the CHRIST is not confined to Yeshua who was only the First of many brethren not the "ONLY" begotten Son but in the original Aramaic it says the "FIRST" begotten son. That is because he brought the awareness of the Christ Spirit and principle into the world's conscious awareness. It was already here, of course, but not recognized very well nor properly defined in the outlets that arrived on planet earth before Yeshua.

Yeshua was the seed that fell into the earth and died bringing forth many many seeds (sons-of God.) "Now are we the Sons of God," says John, "but it does not yet appear what we SHALL BE...." this is our spiritual evolution (growth) to become..."for we shall be LIKE HIM (LIKE YESHUA)."

And Yeshua himself tells us that "all that he does we will do ALSO and even MORE shall we do...." Today's ianity trys to express this by show biz fakery to rake in mountains of... cash. But every now and then.... someones faith over rides the circus. Oral Roberts once said that if he could inspire faith in folks they would be healed. So, that's why he paid folks to arrive in wheel chairs and jump up as if they had been healed. totally fake but.... every now an then..... so that's how Oral justified it in his own conscience. But i say... why not do as Yeshua suggested and heal others with a totally clear conscience? And, NO ONE, no matter who they are, should EVER charge ANYTHING WHATSOEVER to lay hands on the sick. NEVER. If they do, it is completely polluted and will eventually destroy such a practitioner. The same goes for meditation. Buddha knew that. No one should ever "pay" to learn meditation. EVER. And no one should ever "pay' for anyone to pray for them. That is really an abomination. In my opinion.

I had a pastor once who continually defrauded his congregation by offering risky investments.

"Now, this is an opportunity to triple your money in 90 days... but there is always a chance you might loose it all."

Guess what? They ALWAYS lost it all----and could not complain too much because they had been duly warned----but the gambling lust made them go-for-broke and, like all gamblers, they accepted their losses due to their own risk taking.

They never turned the pastor over to the vice-squad for fear of "embarassing" the church. hahahah.

My pastor also happened to be my boss ( God help me) and I was always too broke to invest anything in his many schemes. I probably would have. He was an excellent salesman. One day I confronted him about this fraudulent activity. He said, "well, as a Christian moving out of this evil world we should do as the Jews did in Exodus and SPOIL EYGPT as we go."

GURK. Oh, how many crooked agendas under the cover of the Holy Bible!

Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

No. He/She does not. However the Source of All That Is also inhabits the stones being their Source also... but they have trouble communicating to humans.

But, the Truth is "Christ IN you the hope of glory." Not only in one man named Yeshua who lived 2000 years ago and has been made into a religious icon to be "worshipped" with men's hand and of course plenty of Mammon to grease the "outreach."

25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;

Yes, Almighty God is our ONE SOURCE and there is no other SOURCE. Christ is that ONE SOURCE expressed making the invisible VISIBLE---and is fully ONE with the All-Parent forever. We are too.

26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men

All the institutionalized separations of race, religion, culture, politics, tradition etc are completely ignorant of the fact that all human beings on planet earth are the SAME ONE family. In the near future, when the ongoing interface with ETs becomes well established we will be known as "Earthlings" only.

for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord,

The ianity says "worship," Paul and Yeshua say SEEK. There is A BIG BIG cognitive dissonance with the ianity. Paul says Almighty God needs no "worship" because Almighty God has need of nothing and only wants seekers to find the Source within themselves, not worshippers in an outward monkey see monkey do religious entertainment.

if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us: 28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being;

"FEEL" after him??? That must mean we are spiritually blind but need to use EVERY POSSIBLE sense organ and our whole heart, mind and soul to SEEK and FIND. Yeshua echos this, of course. Or rather Paul echos Yeshua here.

Again the OMIPRESENCE of the PRIME ALL-PARENT.

as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

What could be clearer? This knowledge of WHO and WHAT Almighty God IS was already known in the east and in the east, they well know that outlets such as Krishna and the many Buddhas were living expressions of the ONE. What happened to the "only begotten Son?" Wasn't Paul even "saved?"

Again, a few decades later, Yeshua was hijacked by the ianity and made into a religious icon to be put up on an alter and "worshipped." This produced SEPARATION from that which is completely NOT separated in any way whatsoever.

So, now we have "Sunday Worship" which keeps the sheeple in lock-step by effectively replacing 24/7 SEEKING, where someone is likely to overstep their bounds, have a creative thought or spiritual vision and become a "heretic."

Let's go play church and fulfill our weekly obligations. Be a decemt member of society. Be sure and put a check on the offering plate, eat a ** and drink some grape juice. Make it a big check so you can win a raffle ticket and then we'll go have our ice cream social after the evening worship---you know, "fellowship." Don't bring up anything serious there. It's all about a place to have fun and games instead of watching Miami Vice on tee vee and being enticed by demons of murder and lust. Ho hum.

29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Be sure and give the Evangelist plenty of gold and silver in order that Gaaawd wil; make you a millionaire for the sake of bringing the gospel of abundance to the impoverished savages, jungle bunnies and Hotentots in dark ignorance. Thnk of all the guuud you will do after God blesses you with that unexpected check in the mail.

30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Forgive my creative speculation in the next paragraph but these ideas are also believed by some folks as much as folks believe in a historical "Jesus." And I say, so what? Even if one, two, more or all of these perspectives are actually historicaly true-----it changes nothing.

And why should anyone be disappointed if one or more of these are actually true? If you are diappointed it only means that your belief system was based on something totally outward and you forgot the inner seeking to find out WHO and WHAT you are.

Well, whether Jesus actually died on the cross and was resurrected as reported by the Bible, or (as the Aramaic Talmud of Jmanuel reports) only had a near-death experience and was medically treated by his friends from India during the three days in Joseph of Armithea's tomb but was actually alive when the disciples saw him and then went to India where he died at the ripe old age of 125 and is now buried in a tomb in Kashmier, where incidently, there is a real shrine of the supposed tomb of Isu the Christ which is visited by pilgrims ----but it doesn't matter ONE IOTA. No.

Even if he never actually existed AT ALL, it doesn't matter.

Why?

Because all about him is US and our own individual hope of spiritual transformation and bodily ascension. Death survival. If the entire story is sheer fantasy blown up from ancient Egyptian myths, it is still not a "lie" but the longing of the human soul to get beyond this planetary dysfunction and see peace on earth and goodwill toward men---an environment where our children and grand-children can grow with happiness and not be made a human sacrifice for the demon Moloch as is not the case.

Whether anyone believes it actually happened historically or not, doesn't matter. Many believe there was never a historical Buddha, Krishna or Moses either. So what?

Even if the Holy Roman Fathers totally invented the entire thing, it doesn't matter.

Even if the whole thing is a programed viral thought--meme by extraterrestrial intelligences in an effort to keep us from blowing up the entire planet, it doesn't matter one bit.

It is whatever we want it to be. It is the longing of our collective consciousness to get unstuck from this prison planet with its long time control paradigm.

31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead. Acts 17:22-31 (KJV)

Thank God all us borned again "saved" are gonna be whisked away to glory by angels in flyin saucers before that appointed day of God's wrath! Too bad that all those heathen unbelievers left behind are gonna burn up physically and then go to hell and burn forever spiritually.... but... they wouldn't pay their tithes to the man of Gaawd sos he could buy a new Mercedes.

namaste

[Dan56]

Dan, do you think this would hold true for today, for those of other beliefs and/or religions who allegedly sin in ignorance?

I don't know, what do you think? Everyone's situation with God is determined by God. Sin crucified Jesus, in that sense, we all crucified him. We sin unknowingly in ignorance, but we also sin knowingly in disobedience. Jesus was making intercession for sinners who didn't know what they had done, and I believe he still does. But I also think the Gospel has been published in all nations, and those who knowingly reject it for a different belief will be accountable.

"That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1;9).

I would say every church puts their own spin on things. I would say that Jesus never found any church acceptable or not acceptable simply because these churches did not exist at the time of Jesus. Revelations was written later.

Jesus always exist... The revelation was revealed to John, but it was; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1;1)

The Bible is a mess Dan and here is a perfect example of two scriptures which totally contradict one another. In Acts you have the author telling us that people have worshipped pagans in ignorance and God merely winks at this ignorance. Then we have the scripture in Romans where the author tells us there is no excuse for any such ignorance as nature itself testifies of God.

I don't see a contradiction here. God winks (overlooks) ignorance, but once people have knowledge of God and are shown the Truth, they are accountable and without excuse.

Dan, can you share your concept of what "Whosoever believes on Him" means?

I think it means exactly what it says, I accept it as face value, and not just a concept. Belief is accepting the teachings of Jesus, and his sacrifice for our transgressions. Its accepting who he said he was, what he did, and what he promised. The 'Word' was with us, accepting it is having the Word (his Truth) dwell within us.

[Fawzo]

I don't see a contradiction here. God winks (overlooks) ignorance, but once people have knowledge of God and are shown the Truth, they are accountable and without excuse.

Dan you do not see because you do not want to. It iss plain to see that there is no excuse for any type of ignorance in the other scripture as it clearly states the knowledge is there everywhere one looks in creation. I'll repost the verse again so you can reread it.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Romans 1:16-20 (KJV)

No one could miss this contradiction unless they wished to. This is the reason why I believe you don't see any contradictions. You choose not to.

[Pete]

Hi Pete!

Please know I am not criticizing ANYONE's belief systems. I'm just a curious onlooker.

Regarding the bolded part above: Why do you suppose the "understandings of today" are different than when the texts were written? Are we less able to understand today, or are we confused by the encroachment of alternatives?

I know Hooka .

I am just surprised that people would be so quick to agree with your comment when at another time they would be calling you a condemned sinner for not agreeing with their view point. Like Nestingwave said we do not challenge atheists or agnostics, as the belief is one of spirituality. I do not believe in hell or the devil. I think these were just made up by the church so they could threaten people and blame someone else for what went wrong.

As for understanding, I do not see people getting healed in large numbers by any church (no matter what their faith) and this despite Jesus reported to have said they would do this and more. Sure there are occasional unexplained things that happen in medicine but they do not happen to people because they hold a particular faith. They happen because medicine is not all knowing. If the church was that successful then why would we need doctors and why are people not going to them first. I also do not see people having a heart attack call out "is there a preacher in the house". Oh no! they call for a doctor first.

I also do not see people rising up and down to heaven in chariots or clouds and as we know now heaven ain't up there and the stars are not held in place by some sort of firmament.

I also wonder why there are not records of events (beside the bible) such as describe in Matthew:-

27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

I believe much of this is poetic licence. I could go on but the question for me is not whether everything written is a real but are there lessons that can be learned in a spiritual sense. I believe there is, however, I recognise that others may think other wise.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

The Bible is a mess Dan and here is a perfect example of two scriptures which totally contradict one another. In Acts you have the author telling us that people have worshipped pagans in ignorance and God merely winks at this ignorance. Then we have the scripture in Romans where the author tells us there is no excuse for any such ignorance as nature itself testifies of God.

You may ignore all the contradictions that have been presented to you, but they are there and many are irreconcilable. Is there any wonder the Bible breeds confusion on many fronts?

[RevRainbow]

Sorry for the double quote above. I have no idea how that happened!

The Bible is a mess Dan and here is a perfect example of two scriptures which totally contradict one another. In Acts you have the author telling us that people have worshipped pagans in ignorance and God merely winks at this ignorance. Then we have the scripture in Romans where the author tells us there is no excuse for any such ignorance as nature itself testifies of God.

You may ignore all the contradictions that have been presented to you, but they are there and many are irreconcilable. Is there any wonder the Bible breeds confusion on many fronts?

This is one of the dangers of spiritual blindness. Now Fawzo, do not be upset with me, for I mean all of us who do not regard the bible as inerrant (and those who do). There is a difference we should see between those who regard the bible as a means of communication from God and those who seek to disprove that premise. To me, the Bible may not be inerrant, but it certainly is sanctified. Sanctification means to be set aside, ordained, for a specific use and in this case, use by God's Spirit in communicating to us through the Scriptures.

Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also.

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually.

I do not see a contradiction in these two portions of the bible.

In one instance, Paul is talking to believers in Christ and explains that the evidence of the existance of God is all around so that men are without excuse in their DENYING the existence of God. In Acts, Paul is talking to people who acknowledge the existence of gods, to the degree that they even covered their butts by erecting a statue to one they may have overlooked. Paul used this scenario as an opening to verify their belief in an unknown God and enlighten their ignorance (which God winked at) about that God.

The Bible is confusing to those who read it in the flesh, rather than in the spirit. And, if we are looking for contradictions, we shall find them only because God rewards those who diligently seek Him and not those who have contempt for the manner in which His Spirit communicates to others.

I have said it before and I say it again, the thing that saddens me here at ULC is the contempt expressed by some in this forum for the Bible, yet they do not show the same contempt for other so-called sacred writings of other religions. I believe this is so because of the fundamentalist aspect of being "absolutely correct" as to holding the Truth, and all others wrong and headed for hell, based on their holding the Bible (and their understanding of it) as inerrant. This does not make the Bible itself the culprit nor, as I stated, the God of that Bible.

Edited January 15, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Youch]

I believe much of this is poetic licence. I could go on but the question for me is not whether everything written is a real but are there lessons that can be learned in a spiritual sense. I believe there is, however, I recognise that others may think other wise.

I totally agree.

As such, I do not think there is "less understanding" so much as a loss of control for those who have benefitted from the more stricter adherence of the dogmatic interpretations of what was likely, as I believe, originally allegorical.

But as others have suggested, is straying from the dogma of established religious institutions really only a "different flavor" of that institution, or is it more of an interpretation and spiritual journey of a singularly individualistic nature? I say it is the latter. And thus, I agree with those who assert that to truely be Christian, in the institutional sense, one must believe and accept the strict tennants of the Bible. How can it be otherwise? (The Constitution keeps coming to mind, as well...)

Otherwise, like me, and perhaps you, we simple take the wonderful allegorical lessons found in the Bible, and elsewhere, and apply them to our lives to the best of our ability, as a society and as individuals.

And both are fantastic!! Live and let live! The religious-bashing nature of many athiests, and the holier than thou attitudes of the orothdox, is all rather annoying, among other things. And while I have many detractors on this forum, I think my attitude on this subject is what ULC is all about....which is probably why they allow me to stay!!

and ,

[mererdog]

It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices.

In truth, there is only danger in rejecting the Bible if the Bible has value that cannot be found elsewhere. Many who reject the bible go on to embrace non-Biblical faiths. Do you mean to say that non-Biblical faiths have less value than Biblical faiths and are, as you put it, "truth of our own devices" "with no foundation other than ego"? I don't think it is whatyou mean to say, but i see little room for your words here to mean anything else.

I have said it before and I say it again, the thing that saddens me here at ULC is the contempt expressed by some in this forum for the Bible, yet they do not show the same contempt for other so-called sacred writings of other religions. I believe this is so because of the fundamentalist aspect of being "absolutely correct" as to holding the Truth, and all others wrong and headed for hell, based on their holding the Bible (and their understanding of it) as inerrant. This does not make the Bible itself the culprit nor, as I stated, the God of that Bible.

A good tree cannot give forth corrupt fruit. What are the fruits of the Bible, if not its believers?

[nestingwave]

I don't know, what do you think? Everyone's situation with God is determined by God.

It is true God is our Creator Source. However, we are co-creators and have something called free-will. WE are the ones that choose either to pay attention to our All-Parent or not. Our most ancient ancestors (long before the Bible existed) struggled with the concept of "destiny" and "fate."

They distinguised between these two.

"Fate" is what WE determine by our choices. "Destiny" is that which is to be regardless of the choices we make. And.... it is often difficult for us to tell the difference between those two ahead of time.

So in todays dumbed down social consensus reality, most folks have no idea of any difference between "fate" and "destiny" and use the two words interchangably. Just as they do "faith" and "belief." However, there IS a distinction. That is "rightly" dividing God's word of Truth. It doesn't mean a separation but it means dispelling our own ignorance by rightly dividing in order that our cognitive minds can properly interpret what our Spirit already fully knows.

Yes I know there are those that believe in total "pre-destination." And claim to believe that because "the Bible tells me so." However, the Bible is very clear about your personal responsibility and the choices you make. So, the point I am making is that, yes indeed, we should make a distinction between Destiny and Fate and realize just as the Bible says, "ignorance is NO excuse." We need to quit making excuses and take up our personal responsibility to dispell our OWN ignorance. When we do that, sin will dissolve, not because some father-figure in the sky is holding threats of torture over us. There IS no such "God" at all. We must dispell our own ignorace because, having overcome that darkness , we become very clear about God's Law of Cause and Effect which is the way the entire Universe operates----always has and always will.

Sin crucified Jesus, in that sense, we all crucified him.

I think to "properly divide the word of Truth" means to not generalize but make distinctions such as between Destiny and Fate but also between "ignorance" and "sin." We just had this discussion did we not? Ignorance is our problem. Take care of ignorance and sin follows suit. Otherwise our correcting of our own sin (GK hamartia=to miss the mark=a MISTAKE) is nothing more than an outward "reform"----a monkey see monkey do religion because, although we "reform" we do not "transform" which requires revelation and overcoming of our own ignorance so that we can become LIKE Jesus---his words not mine.

And that is what Buddhism gave to those who follow Christ. Ignoring this is exactly why the ianity is so "messed up" today as Fawzo so eloquently put it.

We sin unknowingly in ignorance, but we also sin knowingly in disobedience. Jesus was making intercession for sinners who didn't know what they had done, and I believe he still does. But I also think the Gospel has been published in all nations, and those who knowingly reject it for a different belief will be accountable.

Ignorance is what leads to disobdience. And that is true even if we consciously go against God and mentally KNOW we are violating Universal principles and ignorantly assume we can get away with it. This is indication that we have no idea what the Law of Cause and Effect IS. This is ignorance indeed. Once we understand the purpose and beauty of how this vast Creation operates we fall down upon our knees full of humility and awe. We do not OUTWARDLY follow anything but are inwardly enlightened and only want to become pure outlets of the Christ within.

You seem to be saying that just because they were "ignorant" they weren't responsible for crucifying and mocking the Christ. Nonsense. We are always responsible for our own actions even done in ignorance. Our main reponsibility is to overcome our own ignorance. The idea that our sins crucified Jesus is absurd. If you had been there or I had been there we would not have grabbed him and put him on the cross. No, Mary and John were NOT responsible for the crucifixion and neither were we. Neither are we responsible for Sirhan Sirhan killing Robert Kennedy and to take such guilt upon ourselves is utterly ignorant.

The Crucifixion of Jesus was our planetary destiny because of the overall environment that is best described as the "sin against love." This was, and is, our collective consciousness apart from our individual "sins." Jesus and the believers did NOT contribute to the environment of the "sin against love." The disciples sinned individually and were often ignorant but, again, the "sin against love" needs to be distinguished from our daily mistakes. We do need to rightly divide the Word of Truth. Oh, I have heard the emotional wailings about how our "sins put Jesus on the cross because we are rotten sinners mia culpa mia culpa." Utter nonsense. More useless Christian guilt to keep you from seeking the Truth that sets me free. More useless bondage and entanglement with illusory religious baggage.

"That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world" (John 1;90.

The Buddhists call the conscious recognition and application of this inner light "enlightenment." And indeed it is open to every man. And that is regardless of culture, race, religion, education, opinions, or whatever. This verse proves that the Bible teaches the indwelling Christ as distinct from the son-of-man Jesus. Christ has ALWAYS been the light that lighteth every man that comes into the world---that includes our very life energy to keep our heart beating and keep us breathing in and out. It is not just "spiritual" but biological as well. All Jesus did was explain it through example and take the vails off our eyes if we pay attention.

And that is exactly why we are responsible to overcome our own ignorance.

Jesus always exist...

Not as that personality. Jesus was a man born 2000 years ago. Here again a distinction must be made between "Jesus" and "Christ." Jesus was the name of a particular personality.

"Christ" is a basic principle of Almighty God's expression. Almighty God is invisible, unknowable, untouchable and unapproachable. "Christ" is the visible, knowable, touchable and very visible, approachable manifestation and expression of Almighty God the invisible. Jesus was a clear, pure OUTLET and anyone else can be likewise even if not the pure outlet that Jesus was.

"Jesus" was one incarnation. "Christ" is the potential of ALL incarnations including you and me. You are right that Christ always existed, even before the foundation of the world. "Before Abraham was, I AM." Interesting that Jesus used the eternal "name" of Almighty God here. (Exodus 3) I AM. He didn't say "I was." If he had said "I was" he would have been talking about his human ego-personality not the eternal Christ within us. Thus, he makes a distinction that the ianity does not make between himself ("Jesus") and "Christ" our First Source manifested.

Of course the two are in no way separate and neither are we separate from the Christ, but we are not the personality "Jesus" who was ONE incarnation. We are different personalities. We only need become consciously AWARE of WHO and WHAT we actually ARE beyond those different personalities. In other words, the ONE and ONLY TRUE SELF of ALL THAT IS.

That is the meaning of "Self-Realization."

You and I are two more incarnations able to learn, experience and express the eternal Christ through the work of Immanuel (God WITHIN us) and the LIVING EXAMPLE of the son-of-man, Jesus.

Christ always has been, but Jesus (one incarnation) revealed the Christ and made it known to us as never before. We became more consciously AWARE of the Christ, although it manifested many times throughout history in many personalites who were less pure OUTLETS than the man Jesus.

The revelation was revealed to John, but it was; "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" (Rev 1;1)

And Jesus Christ was the Revelation of the invisible ONE ALMIGHTY GOD. God manifested right in front of us and entirely "touchable" by our hands. But Jesus was not the sole expression of the Christ. No. And there have been many expressions of the Christ throughout history through many other "personalities." Jesus was only one personality. St. Francis was another for example. This expression of the Christ through many personalities are the "many seeds".

"NOW are WE the sons-of God...." Yep.

The differences between us are simply our differing life experiences and our differing interpretations of those experiences. ALL personalities have different life experiences and that's not only "good" but absolutely WONDERFUL because it broadens all cognitive concepts of what the eternal CHRIST is. The CHRIST cannot be contained in one personality, even Jesus. That's why Jesus was the FIRST of MANY BRETHERN.

That wonderful expression of the invisible God (Christ) is not confined to a single personality despite so much false advertising to the contrary by the Roman religious control paradigm that invented the "ianity."

And that is exactly why many of our Jewish brethren call the religion of Christianity IDOLATRY. Islam does likwise. Both are very polite about it usually but when you recognize that God is ONE, it makes the Roman manufactured doctrine of the "Trinity" seem rather idolatrous. And especially when you have a so-called "Holy Ghost" flitting here and there coming and going like a confused fairy. And especially when a religion puts a bloody idol up on a stand and falls down to worship it. So, can you see WHY the ianity does not set well with some people?

It is because a single pop star was elevated up on a pedestal and "WORSHIPPED." And we know exactly how that came about and why. It is the story of today's ianity which ignores the Christ and focuses on a personality instead. An invented personlaity that relieves you of personal responsibility because he already "paid" for all your sins with his blood ( a human sacrifice) and does not hold you responsible for your ignorance. A pure artificial invention. A mind-control program. His work on the cross was not to alleviate the consequences of your "sins" but to redeem the entire world from the "sin against love." Again, that is not the same thing as shedding his blood for your individual daily sins. YOU are responsible to deal with the consequences of those by repentance and taking a different direction. And also by forgiving your fellow men. Otherwise, Jesus blood on the corss avails nothing and never was intended to anyway because the "sin against love" is not your individual sins but the whole environment of the entire planetary paradigm and he "redeemed it" that is, he made the way for a consciousness of unconditional love to blossom forth.

That's really as clear as I know how to put it.

I don't see a contradiction here. God winks (overlooks) ignorance, but once people have knowledge of God and are shown the Truth, they are accountable and without excuse.

Sorry. There are no "excuses." Even Mother Nature constantly reflects the Truth of God. The reason many Christians are always looking for excuses is because they tremble in terror that a totally UNREAL and NONEXISTANT Jealous God of Wrath up in the sky somewhere will torture them forever and ever for making a mistake.

BRAIN--WASHING by the hand of the Roman ianity.

Yes, mind-control is VERY effective. However, it is our responsibilty to overcome it. And it is easily overcome actually---simply by overcoming our own ignorance. Brain-washing doesn't work unless we willingly abdicate our God given free choice over to a fast talking saleman who threatens you with eternal torture unless you buy the faulty product. That's what many have done. They willingly abdicated their free choice over to the Roman Control Paradigm and became mind-slaves to error.

You are talking about "God" here as if God was a separate entity up in the sky dispensing blessings or curses. This is not even the Biblical view of "God." Not even the Romanized version of the biblical view of God. You and I are accountable for our own ignorance. It is up to us to seek with all our heart, mind and soul to find and bring forth and manifest the Kingdom of God which already exists inside.

That is our personal responsibility, not just to correct our bad behavior. If you are referring to Paul's sermon on Mars hill when you say "God winks" I suggest you read it again in context.

I think it means exactly what it says,

According to whose interpretation of what it says? The way you are defining "God" and "Christ" shows clear evidence of Roman brain-washing. No, I am not criticizing you for that because each and every one of us has been under the SAME brain-washing all our lives. But, this is what overcoming and becoming is all about. The time has come to quit making excuses and take up our personal responsibility---and that is the message of Yeshua. In order to do that we must come COMPLETELY OUT of Babylon. That's what the genuine "Church" IS and Bablyon is what the Great Whore Church IS.

You and I are called OUT.

And certainly the ianity is a large part of what we are called OUT OF. Just as we are called out of sin. We are also called out of ignorance. Ignorance of our past. And most especially ignorance of WHO and WHAT WE ARE.

I accept it as face value,

This is not that shallow, brother. The Bible is many fathoms deep. Do not read it like a New York Times. If you do, you entirely miss everything. Reading the Bible at "face value" means you cannot see the heart of the matter. Christ is not a shallow matter. Christ is a HEART matter. Its depth is infinite.

and not just a concept. Belief is accepting the teachings of Jesus,

But not blindly accepting the falsely so-called "teachings of Jesus" given to you by the Roman control paradigm. Come out of Babylon. It is the Great Whore that sits on many waters. It buys and sells the souls of men. It produces human suffering, war, terror, threats, lies, deceptions, greed etc. And it does it all in the name of "Jesus Christ" in order to deceive. What an insult to Almighty God and Jesus Christ!

The genuine teachings of Jesus are far more than a highly edited New York Times article. Really.

and his sacrifice for our transgressions.

A part of our "transgression" is our willing ignorance and abdication of our free will over to the vain traditions of the fathers.

Its accepting who he said he was, what he did, and what he promised.

Yes. But... not just who someone "says" he "was" but who He IS right now beyond the doctrines and dogmas invented by the vain traditions of the fathers and passed down generation after generation to compound ignorance and darkness.

The 'Word' was with us, accepting it is having the Word (his Truth) dwell within us.

It already "dwells within you" whether you accept it or not. It is your responsibility and my responsibility to become AWARE of that indwelling Christ and become clear OUTLETS for that light to shine. Look... if Christ is the light that lights every man that comes into the world. Doesn't that tell you that Christ is MORE than a spiritual item. It includes your wonderful biology.

Accepting what? The Roman Bible? Is that the "it" you refer to or do you mean the reality of the Christ? I think you tend see those two as one and the same and are still somewhat unable to make the distinction.

However, in my view, they are polar opposites. One clearly represents fear, threats, war, confusion and violence and the other represents peace on earth and goodwill toward men. I choose the later and I'm sure you do too. So, I suggest you look a little further into it.

Just do as Jesus suggested and don't STOP seeking because if any of us do and become self-satisfied smugly thinking we have "arrived", we become petrified and frozen and slaves to the control paradigm that does not have Christ's interest at heart in any way whatsoever.

Just like there is a distinction to be made in order to rightly divide the Word of Truth between "fate" and "destiny" between "Jesus" and "Christ" between "faith" and "belief" between "predestination" and "free will" between our sins and our ignorance---we must also rightly divide the Word of Truth by making a distinction between "outward" and "inward."

Yes, my brother there is only ONE THING which is OUR SOURCE, however, in this Great Creation of duality, rightly dividing the Word of Truth is necessary as Paul so well pointed out.

To do that, we must seek with ALL (not part) of our mind, heart and soul. This means to prove all things instead of blindly accepting something simply because it was handed down to us by tradition---especially when it is fully exposed as being completely fraudulent and historically proven to represent an agenda of control over the minds, bodies and souls of men and uses violence and threats to do so.

It should be obvious---but of course viral mental programming is an extremely strong prison indeed. And we have ALL been in that prison. ALL without exception because we were BORN INTO IT on a Prison Planet where religion is used to keep the inmates well under control. It has been highly successful but not completely so. It's limitations become more exposed every single day.

And now, the time has come for it to end forever.

May all our ignorance and suffering be dispelled and replaced by peace on earth and goodwill toward men---- and may our seeking be thorough and complete as Jesus Christ so desired.

namaste

One more thing. The fact that Jesus was slain "before the foundation of the world" does not mean anything more than the fact that as soon as ignorance was there, the alleviation of that ignorance was sure destiny because the evolution of consciousness and all LIFE is a basic principle of the entire Universe, just as is the Law of Cause and Effect. The "effect" of the actional "cause" of ignorance is the release of Christ's manifestation which cannot be murdered by an instrument of torture. You must realize that the historical event of Jesus' crucifixion and resurrection (whatever you judge that to be) was a turning point that is completely outside of linear "time" altogether and the ignorance of man demanded it because the destiny of our world is the coming Kingdom of God and that is not fate which our free will effects. The Kingdom of Almighty God ON THE EARTH is our planetary destiny.

Of course, the control paradigm has brain-washed many to embrace a phoney la la heaven of eternal perfection and bliss that cannot even be found in the Bible.

When this transformation fully manifests, it will NOT be heavenly perfection but only the very beginning of moving toward perfection. Only Almighty God is perfection and there is no other "perfection."

Our present biology is not even able to contain such perfection even in its most "glorified" state as seen in the son-of-man after his "resurrection."

We have millions if not billions of years in linear time before we reach even the edge of such ultimate perfection. And when we do, instead of selfishly choosing our own heavenly bliss and perfection for ever and ever, we will come back because of our (Christ's) unconditional love to lift up all the other beings who are undergoing the same dysfunctions, fear, violence, doubt, confusion and suffering that we once experienced.

This is true compassion.

This is what the Mahayana Buddhists call a Bodhisatva--and Jesus was one of those. The most striking example of a Bodhisatva to ever grace our planet but there have been others. And that is what genuine unconditional love is all about.

The transformational process we are undergoing is not unique and it is not unusual---but the very way LIFE develops throughout the entire Universe and all the infinite dimensions of time and space.

[Pete]

I totally agree.

As such, I do not think there is "less understanding" so much as a loss of control for those who have benefitted from the more stricter adherence of the dogmatic interpretations of what was likely, as I believe, originally allegorical.

But as others have suggested, is straying from the dogma of established religious institutions really only a "different flavor" of that institution, or is it more of an interpretation and spiritual journey of a singularly individualistic nature? I say it is the latter. And thus, I agree with those who assert that to truely be Christian, in the institutional sense, one must believe and accept the strict tennants of the Bible. How can it be otherwise? (The Constitution keeps coming to mind, as well...)

Otherwise, like me, and perhaps you, we simple take the wonderful allegorical lessons found in the Bible, and elsewhere, and apply them to our lives to the best of our ability, as a society and as individuals.

And both are fantastic!! Live and let live! The religious-bashing nature of many athiests, and the holier than thou attitudes of the orothdox, is all rather annoying, among other things. And while I have many detractors on this forum, I think my attitude on this subject is what ULC is all about....which is probably why they allow me to stay!!

and ,

I understand where your coming from (I think), but liberal theology has an establishment and a body of differing studies. Fundamentalism and the belief that the bible is inerrant is not the only school of thought around. My journey may be as individual (how else can I be true to what I believe), but that should not be read as I am alone. There are many who have walked similar journeys before.

See:- http://en.wikipedia....al_Christianity

People such as Paul Tillich, John Shelby Spong, Matthew Fox and many others have had to endure much criticism because they stepped outside of the order of others, but they do give some wonderful reading (IMO). See:- http://matthewfoxcs....rticles-of.html (please forgive display of this article but I cannot find another one yet). ( I love article 32 and you can see how Matthew seems to have a differing take on the bible, but no less relevant (IMO).

Fundamental Christianity has not the right in my opinion to declare that they hold the only definition of Christianity or that the belief that the bible is inerrant is fundamental to Christianity. There are institutions such as the Quakers, the Roman Catholic church, Anglican church and others who allow the questioning of the bible. For sure, they may not agree with each other, but for them it is faith in God that matters and is central to the faith and not whether a person accepts a book as inerrant. Faith for me is a journey and not an arrival at a given set of dogmas. Jesus stepped out of the order of his time and many questioned him too.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Pete

[Pete]

I hope people do not mind if I print the 95 theses here (Taken from http://matthewfoxcs.blogspot.com/)

1.

God is both Mother and Father.

Gott ist Mutter und Vater.

2.

At this time in history, God is more Mother than Father because the feminine is most missing and it is important to bring gender balance back.

In unserer Zeit ist Gott mehr Mutter als Vater, denn das Weibliche fehlt am meisten, und es ist wesentlich, das Gleichgewicht der Geschlechter wieder herzustellen.

3.

God is always new, always young and always “in the beginning.”

Gott ist immer neu, immer jung und immer „im Anfang“.

4.

God the Punitive Father is not a God worth honoring but a false god and an idol that serves empire-builders. The notion of a punitive, all-male God, is contrary to the full nature of the Godhead who is as much female and motherly as it is masculine and fatherly.

Gott als strafender Vater ist keine anbetungswürdige Gottheit, sondern ein Götze, der den Imperialisten dient. Die Vorstellung eines strafenden, männlichen Gottes widerspricht dem umfassenden Wesen der Gottheit, die ebenso weiblich und mütterlich wie männlich und väterlich ist.

5.

“All the names we give to God come from an understanding of ourselves.” (Eckhart) Thus people who worship a punitive father are themselves punitive.

"Alle N amen, die wir Gott geben, stammen aus unserem Selbstverständnis." (Meister Eckhart*) Deshalb sind diejenigen, die Gott als strafend bezeichnen, selbst strafend.

6.

Theism (the idea that God is ‘out there’ or above and beyond the universe) is false. All things are in God and God is in all things (panentheism).

Der Theismus (die Vorstellung, daß Gott irgendwo `da draußen´ ist oder oberhalb oder außerhalb des Universums) ist falsch. Alle Dinge sind in Gott, und Gott ist in allen Dingen (Panentheismus).

7.

Everyone is born a mystic and a lover who experiences the unity of things and all are called to keep this mystic or lover of life alive.

Jede und jeder ist als MystikerIn geboren und als LiebendeR, der oder die die Einheit aller Dinge erlebt und berufen ist, dieses Mystische und diese Lebensliebe lebendig zu erhalten.

8.

All are called to be prophets which is to interfere with injustice.

Alle Menschen sind berufen Prophetinnen und Propheten zu sein, was bedeutet, sich in Ungerechtigkeit einzumischen.

9.

Wisdom is Love of Life (See the Book of Wisdom: “This is wisdom: to love life” and Christ in John’s Gospel: “I have come that you may have life and have it in abundance.”)

Weisheit ist die Liebe zum Leben (siehe das Buch der Weisheit: „Weisheit heißt: das Leben zu lieben.“ und Christus im Johannes-Evangelium: „Ich bin gekommen, damit ihr das Leben habt, Leben in Fülle.“)

10.

God loves all of creation and science can help us more deeply penetrate and appreciate the mysteries and wisdom of God in creation. Science is no enemy of true religion.

Gott liebt die ganze Schöpfung, und die Wissenschaft kann uns helfen, tiefer in die Mysterien und die Weisheit Gottes in der Schöpfung einzudringen. Wissenschaft ist kein Feind echter Religion.

11.

Religion is not necessary but spirituality is.

Religion ist nicht notwendig, wohl aber Spiritualität.

12.

“Jesus does not call us to a new religion but to life.” (Bonhoeffer) Spirituality is living life at a depth of newness and gratitude, courage and creativity, trust and letting go, compassion and justice.

"Jesus ruft uns nicht zu einer neuen Religion, sondern zum Leben" (nach Bonhoeffer*). Spiritualität heißt, das Leben in tiefer Neuheit und Dankbarkeit zu leben, in Mut und Kreativität, Vertrauen und Gelassenheit, Mitgefühl und Gerechtigkeit.

13.

Spirituality and religion are not the same thing any more than education and learning, law and justice, or commerce and stewardship are the same thing.

Spiritualität und Religion sind ebensowenig das gleiche, wie Bildung und Wissen, Gerechtigkeit und Gesetz oder Treuhänderschaft und Kommerz.

14.

Christians must distinguish between God (masculine and history, liberation and salvation) and Godhead (feminine and mystery, being and non-action).

Christen müssen unterscheiden zwischen Gott (männlich und Geschichte, Befreiung und Erlösung) und Gottheit (weiblich und Mysterium, Sein und Nicht-Handeln).

15.

Christians must distinguish between Jesus (an historical figure) and Christ (the experience of God-in-all-things).

Christen müssen unterscheiden zwischen Jesus (einer historischen Gestalt) und Christus (der Erfahrung von Gott-in-allen-Dingen).

16.

Christians must distinguish between Jesus and Paul.

Christen müssen zwischen Jesus und Paulus unterscheiden.

17.

Jesus, not unlike many spiritual teachers, taught us that we are sons and daughters of God and are to act accordingly by becoming instruments of divine compassion.

Ähnlich anderen spirituellen Lehrern lehrte Jesus uns, daß wir Söhne und Töchter Gottes sind und uns deshalb als Werkzeuge des göttlichen Mitgefühls zu verhalten haben.

18.

Ecojustice is a necessity for planetary survival and human ethics and without it we are crucifying the Christ all over again in the form of destruction of forests, waters, species, air and soil.

Ökologische Gerechtigkeit ist für das Überleben des Planeten und eine menschliche Ethik notwendig. Ohne eine solche kreuzigen wir den Christus immer wieder in Form der Zerstörung von Wäldern, Wasser, Spezies, Luft und Boden.

19.

Sustainability is another word for justice, for what is just is sustainable and what is unjust is not.

Nachhaltigkeit ist ein anderes Wort für Gerechtigkeit, denn was gerecht ist, ist auch nachhaltig, und was ungerecht ist, nicht.

20.

A preferential option for the poor, as found in the base community movement, is far closer to the teaching and spirit of Jesus than is a preferential option for the rich and powerful as found in, for example, Opus Dei.

Eine Option für die Armen, wie beispielsweise in der Bewegung der Basisgemeinden, ist der Lehre und dem Geist Jesu viel näher als die Option für die Reichen und Mächtigen, wie beispielsweise im Opus Dei.

21.

Economic Justice requires the work of creativity to birth a system of economics that is global, respectful of the health and wealth of the earth systems and that works for all.

Ökonomische Gerechtigkeit braucht das Wirken der Kreativität, um ein Wirtschaftssystem hervorzubringen, das global ist, das Achtung hat vor der Gesundheit und dem Reichtum der planetaren Systeme und das für alle Menschen funktioniert.

22.

Celebration and worship are key to human community and survival and such reminders of joy deserve new forms that speak in the language of the twenty-first century.

Feier und Kult sind Schlüssel zur menschlichen Gemeinschaft und zum Überleben. Derartige Anstösse zur Freude verdienen neue Formen, welche die Sprache des 21.Jahrhunderts sprechen.

23.

Sexuality is a sacred act and a spiritual experience, a theophany (revelation of the Divine), a mystical experience. It is holy and deserves to be honored as such.

Sexualität ist eine heilige Handlung und eine spirituelle Erfahrung, eine Theophanie (Offenbarung des Göttlichen), eine mystische Erfahrung. Sie ist heilig und verdient es, als solche geehrt zu werden.

24.

Creativity is both humanity’s greatest gift and its most powerful weapon for evil and so it ought to be both encouraged and steered to humanity’s most God-like activity which all religions agree is: Compassion.

Kreativität ist sowohl die größte Gabe der Menschheit wie auch ihre mächtigste Waffe für das Böse. Deshalb müssen wir zum Mitgefühl ermutigt und gelenkt werden, das – wie alle Religion übereinstimmend sagen – die gottesähnlichste Handlung der Menschheit ist.

25.

There is a priesthood of all workers (all who are doing good work are midwives of grace and therefore priests) and this priesthood ought to be honored as sacred and workers should be instructed in spirituality in order to carry on their ministry effectively.

Es gibt eine Priesterschaft aller Arbeitenden (die gute Werke tun und Hebammen der Gnade sind und darum PriesterInnen), und diese Priesterschaft sollte als heilig geehrt werden, und die Arbeitenden sollten in Spiritualität unterrichtet werden, um ihr Amt wirksam ausüben zu können.

26.

Empire-building is incompatible with Jesus’ life and teaching and with Paul’s life and teaching and with the teaching of holy religions.

Imperialismus ist nicht verträglich mit dem Leben und der Lehre Jesu und dem Leben und der Lehre des Paulus und mit der Lehre der heiligen Religionen.

27.

Ideology is not theology and ideology endangers the faith because it replaces thinking with obedience, and distracts from the responsibility of theology to adapt the wisdom of the past to today’s needs. Instead of theology it demands loyalty oaths to the past.

Ideologie ist keine Theologie, sondern gefährdet den Glauben, weil sie das Denken durch Gehorchen ersetzt und von der Verantwortung der Theologie ablenkt, die Weisheit der Vergangenheit an die heutigen Bedürfnisse anzupassen. Statt Theologie verlangt sie Loyalitäts-Eide auf die Vergangenheit.

28

Loyalty is not a sufficient criterion for ecclesial office—intelligence and proven conscience is.

Loyalität ist kein ausreichendes Kriterium für ein Kirchenamt – wohl aber Intelligenz und ein unter Beweis gestelltes Gewissen.

29.

No matter how much the television media fawn over the pope and papacy because it makes good theater, the pope is not the church but has a ministry within the church. Papalolotry is a contemporary form of idolatry and must be resisted by all believers.

Ganz gleich wieviel die Fernsehanstalten den Papst und das Pontifikat hofieren, weil das eine gute Show macht, ist doch der Papst nicht die Kirche, sondern hat nur ein Amt innerhalb der Kirche. Pontifikalismus ist eine zeitgenössische Art des Götzendienstes, dem alle Gläubigen widerstehen müssen.

30.

Creating a church of Sycophants is not a holy thing. Sycophants (Webster’s dictionary defines them as “servile self-seeking flatterers”) are not spiritual people for their only virtue is obedience. A Society of Sycophants — sycophant clergy, sycophant seminarians, sycophant bishops, sycophant cardinals, sycophant religious orders of Opus Dei, Legioneers of Christ and Communion and Liberation, and the sycophant press--do not represent in any way the teachings or the person of the historical Jesus who chose to stand up to power rather than amassing it.

Eine Kirche von Sycophanten zu schaffen ist nichts Heiliges. Sycophanten (laut Lexikon „unterwürfige, sich selbst suchende Schmeichler“) sind keine spirituellen Menschen, denn ihre einzige Tugend ist der Gehorsam. Eine Gesellschaft der Sycophanten – sycophantischer Klerus, sycophantische Seminaristen, sycophantische Bischöfe, sycophantische Kardinäle, sycophantische religiöse Orden wie Opus Dei, die Legionäre Christi oder `Gemeinschaft und Befreiung´, sowie eine sycophantische Presse – vertreten in keiner Weise die Lehren oder die Person des historischen Jesus, der sich gegen die Macht aufgelehnt hat statt sie anzuhäufen.

31.

Vows of pontifical secrecy are a certain way to corruption and cover-up in the church as in any human organization.

Pontifikale Verschwiegenheitseide sind in der Kirche ein ebenso sicherer Weg zur Korruption und Vertuschung wie in allen anderen menschlichen Organisationen.

32.

Original sin is an ultimate expression of a punitive father God and is not a Biblical teaching. But original blessing (goodness and grace) is biblical.

Die Ursünde ist äußerster Ausdruck eines strafenden Vatergottes und keine biblische Lehre. Der ursprüngliche Segen (Güte und Gnade) aber ist biblisch.

33.

The term “original wound” better describes the separation humans experience on leaving the womb and entering the world, a world that is often unjust and unwelcoming than does the term “original sin.”

Der Ausdruck „ursprüngliche Wunde“ beschreibt besser als „Ursünde“ die Trennung, die die Menschen beim Verlassen des Mutterleibes erleben und beim Betreten einer Welt, die oft ungerecht und abweisend ist.

34.

Fascism and the compulsion to control is not the path of peace or compassion and those who practice fascism are not fitting models for sainthood. The seizing of the apparatus of canonization to canonize fascists is a stain on the church.

Faschismus und Kontrollzwang sind kein Weg zu Frieden oder Mitgefühl. Und diejenigen, die Faschismus praktizieren, sind keine passenden Vorbilder der Heiligkeit. Der Mißbrauch des Kanonisierungs-Apparates zur Kanonisierung von Faschisten ist ein Schandfleck auf der Kirche.

35.

The Spirit of Jesus and other prophets calls people to simple life styles in order that “the people may live.”

Der Geist Jesu und anderer Propheten beruft die Menschen zu einem einfachen Lebensstil, damit „die Menschen leben mögen“.

36.

Dancing, whose root meaning in many indigenous cultures is the same as breath or spirit, is a very ancient and appropriate form in which to pray.

Tanzen hat in vielen ursprünglichen Kulturen die gleiche Bedeutungswurzel wie Atmen oder Geist und ist eine sehr alte und angemessene Form des Betens.

37.

To honor the ancestors and celebrate the communion of saints does not mean putting heroes on pedestals but rather honoring them by living out lives of

imagination, courage and compassion in our own time, culture and historical moment as they did in theirs.

Die Vorfahren zu achten und die Gemeinschaft der Heiligen zu feiern, bedeutet nicht, Helden auf ein Podest zu heben, sondern sie dadurch zu ehren, daß wir in unserer eigenen Zeit, Kultur und Geschichte phantasievoll, mutig und mitfühlend leben, wie sie es in ihrer taten.

38.

A diversity of interpretation of the Jesus event and the Christ experience is altogether expected and welcomed as it was in the earliest days of the church.

Wie in der Frühzeit der Kirche ist eine Deutungsvielfalt für die Ereignisse um Jesus und die Christus-Erfahrung erwartungsgemäß und erwünscht.

39.

Therefore unity of church does not mean conformity. There is unity in diversity. Coerced unity is not unity.

Einheit der Kirche bedeutet deshalb nicht Konformität. Es gibt eine Einheit in der Vielfalt. Erzwungene Einheit ist keine Einheit.

40.

The Holy Spirit is perfectly capable of working through participatory democracy in church structures and hierarchical modes of being can indeed interfere with the work of the Spirit.

Der Heilige Geist ist durchaus in der Lage in partizipatorisch demokratischen Kirchenstrukturen zu wirken; und hierarchische Modelle können das Wirken des Geistes auch behindern.

41.

The body is an awe-filled sacred Temple of God and this does not mean it is untouchable but rather that all its dimensions, well named by the seven charkas, are as holy as the others.

Der Körper ist ein ehrfurchtsvoller Tempel Gottes. Und das bedeutet nicht, daß er unberührbar sei, sondern daß alle seine Dimensionen – benannt als die sieben Chakren – gleichermaßen heilig sind.

42.

Thus our connection with the earth (first chakra) is holy; and our sexuality (second chakra) is holy; and our moral outrage (third chakra) is holy; and our love that stands up to fear (fourth chakra) is holy; and our prophetic voice that speaks out is holy (fifth chakra); and our intuition and intelligence (sixth chakra) are holy; and our gifts we extend to the community of light beings and ancestors (seventh chakra) are holy.

Deshalb ist unsere Verbindung mit der Erde heilig (erstes Chakra); und unsere Sexualität ist heilig (zweites Chakra); und unsere moralische Empörung ist heilig (drittes Chakra); und unsere Liebe, die sich gegen die Angst stellt, ist heilig (viertes Chakra); und unsere prophetisch sich äußernde Stimme ist heilig (fünftes Chakra); und unsere Intuition und Intelligenz sind heilig (sechstes Chakra); und unsere Gaben, mit denen wir an der Gemeinschaft der Lichtwesen und Vorfahren teilhaben, sind heilig (siebentes Chakra).

43.

The prejudice of rationalism and left-brain located in the head must be balanced by attention to the lower charkas as equal places for wisdom and truth and Spirit to act.

Das Vorurteil des Rationalismus und der nur im Kopf angesiedelten linken Hirnhälfte muß ein Gleichgewicht finden mit einer Aufmerksamkeit auf die unteren Chakren, die ebenso

Weisheit und Wahrheit und handelnden Geist verkörpern.

44.

The central chakra, compassion, is the test of the health of all the others which are meant to serve it for “by their fruits you will know them” (Jesus).

Das zentrale Chakra, das Mitgefühl, ist der Prüfstein für die Gesundheit aller anderen, die ihm dienen sollen, denn „an ihren Früchten werdet ihr sie erkennen“ (Jesus).

45.

“Joy is the human’s noblest act.” (Aquinas) Is our culture and its professions, education and religion, promoting joy?

"Freude ist das edelste Werk des Menschen." (Thomas von Aquin) Fördern unsere Kultur und ihre Berufe, die Bildung und Religion wirklich Freude?

46.

The human psyche is made for the cosmos and will not be satisfied until the two are re-united and awe, the beginning of wisdom, results from this reunion.

Die menschliche Seele ist für den Kosmos geschaffen und wird nicht zufrieden sein, solange diese beiden nicht vereint sind und Ehrfurcht, der Beginn der Weisheit, aus dieser Verbindung entsteht.

47.

The four paths named in the creation spiritual tradition more fully name the mystical/prophetic spiritual journey of Jesus and the Jewish tradition than do the three paths of purgation, illumination and union which do not derive from the Jewish and Biblical tradition.

Die vier von der Schöpfungstradition benannten Pfade repräsentieren die mystisch-prophetische geistige Reise Jesu und der jüdischen Überlieferung besser als die drei Pfade der Läuterung, Erleuchtung und Vereinigung, die nicht aus der jüdischen und biblischen Tradition stammen.

48.

Thus it can be said that God is experienced in experiences of ecstasy, joy, wonder and delight (via positiva).

Deshalb kann man sagen, daß Gott in einer Erfahrung der Ekstase, der Freude, des Staunens und der Begeisterung erlebt wird (via positiva).

49.

God is experienced in darkness, chaos, nothingness, suffering, silence and in learning to let go and let be (via negativa).

Gott wird erlebt in Dunkelheit, Chaos, Nichtigkeit, Leiden, Stille und im Erlernen des Geschehen- und Seinlassens (via negativa).

50.

God is experienced in acts of creativity and co-creation (via creativa).

Gott wird erfahren in Taten der Kreativität und der Mitschöpfung (via creativa).

51.

All people are born creative. It is spirituality’s task to encourage holy imagination for all are born in the “image and likeness” of the Creative One and “the fierce power of imagination is a gift from God.” (Kaballah)

Alle Menschen werden kreativ geboren. Es ist eine Aufgabe der Spiritualität die heilige Phantasie zu ermuntern, denn alle sind "im Ebenbilde" des Schöpferischen geboren und "die

wilde Kraft der Vorstellung ist eine Gabe Gottes" (Kabbala).

52.

If you can talk you can sing; if you can walk you can dance; if you can talk you are an artist. (African proverb and Native American saying)

Wenn du sprechen kannst, kannst du auch singen: wenn du gehen kannst, kannst du auch tanzen; wenn du sprechen kannst, bist du ein Künstler. (Afrikanisches und indianisches Sprichwort)

53.

God is experienced in our struggle for justice, healing, compassion and celebration (via transformativa).

Gott wird erlebt in unserem Kampf für Gerechtigkeit, Heilung, Mitgefühl und Feier (via transformativa).

54.

The Holy Spirit works through all cultures and all spiritual traditions and blows “where it wills” and is not the exclusive domain of any one tradition and

never has been.

Der Heilige Geist wirkt durch alle Kulturen und alle spirituellen Überlieferungen und "weht wo er will" und ist und war niemals einer Tradition exklusiv vorbehalten.

55.

God speaks today as in the past through all religions and all cultures and all faith traditions none of which is perfect and an exclusive avenue to truth but all of which can learn from each other.

Gott spricht heute wie in der Vergangenheit durch alle Religionen und alle Kulturen und alle Glaubensüberlieferungen, die alle nicht vollkommene oder alleinige Wege zur Wahrheitsind, sondern alle voneinander lernen können.

56.

Therefore Interfaith or Deep Ecumenism are a necessary part of spiritual praxis and awareness in our time.

Deshalb ist eine glaubensübergreifende oder Tiefenökumene notwendiger Teil einer zeitgemäßen spirituellen Praxis und Bewußtheit.

57.

Since the “number one obstacle to interfaith is a bad relationship with one’s own faith,” (the Dalai Lama) it is important that Christians know their own

mystical and prophetic tradition, one that is larger than a religion of empire and its punitive father images of God.

Da "das Haupthindernis für eine Glaubensbegegnung eine schlechte Beziehung zum eigenen Glauben ist" (der Dalai Lama), ist es für Christen wichtig, ihre eigene mystische und

prophetische Tradition kennenzulernen, die umfassender ist als eine Religion des Imperiums und ihr strafend väterliches Gottesbild.

58.

The cosmos is God’s holy Temple and our holy home.

Der Kosmos ist Gottes heiliger Tempel und unsere heilige Heimat.

59.

Fourteen billion years of evolution and unfolding of the universe bespeak the intimate sacredness of all that is.

Milliarden Jahre Evolution und Entfaltung des Universums weisen auf die innerste Heiligkeit allen Seins hin.

60.

All that is is holy and all that is is related for all being in our universe began as one being just before the fireball erupted.

Alles, was ist, ist heilig, und alles, was ist, steht zueinander in Beziehung, denn alles Sein in diesem Universum begann als ein Sein, bevor der Urknall geschah.

61.

Interconnectivity is not only a law of physics and of nature but also forms the basis of community and of compassion. Compassion is the working out of our shared interconnectivity both as to our shared joy and our shared suffering and struggle for justice.

Wechselseitige Verbundenheit ist nicht nur ein physikalisches und Naturgesetz, sondern stellt auch die Grundlage unserer Gesellschaft und des Mitgefühls dar. Mitgefühl ist die Umsetzung unserer gegenseitigen Verbundenheit sowohl in bezug auf unsere gemeinsame Freude wie auch in bezug auf unser gemeinsames Leid und unseren Kampf um Gerechtigkeit.

62.

The universe does not suffer from a shortage of grace and no religious institution is to see its task as rationing grace. Grace is abundant in God’s universe.

Das Universum leidet nicht an einem Mangel an Gnade und keine religiöse Institution darf ihre Aufgabe in der Rationierung von Gnade sehen. In Gottes Welt gibt es genügend Gnade.

63.

Creation, Incarnation and Resurrection are continuously happening on a cosmic as well as a personal scale. So too are Life, Death and Resurrection (regeneration and reincarnation) happening on a cosmic scale as well as a personal one.

Schöpfung, Inkarnation und Auferstehung geschehen auf kosmischer wie auf persönlicher Ebene ständig. Und das gilt auch für Leben, Tod und Auferstehung (Regeneration und Reinkarnation), die in kosmischem wie persönlichem Maßstab geschehen.

64.

Biophilia or Love of Life is everyone’s daily task.

Biophilie oder Liebe zum Leben ist unser aller tägliche Aufgabe.

65.

Necrophilia or love of death is to be opposed in self and society in all its forms.

Der Nekrophilie oder Todesliebe muß in uns selbst und in der Gesellschaft in allen Formen widerstanden werden.

66.

Evil can happen through every people, every nation, every tribe, and every individual human and so vigilance and self-criticism and institutional criticism are always called for.

Das Böse kann durch jede Nation, jedes Volk, jeden Stamm und jedes Individuum geschehen. Deshalb sind Wachsamkeit, Selbstkritik und institutionelle Kritik jederzeit gefragt.

67.

Not all who call themselves “Christian” deserve that name just as “not all who say ‘Lord, Lord’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven” (Jesus).

Nicht alle, die sich als „Christen“ bezeichnen, verdienen diesen Namen auch, wie auch nicht alle, „die `Herr, Herr´ sagen, ins Himmelreich eingehen werden“ (Jesus).

68.

Pedophilia is a terrible wrong but its cover-up by hierarchy is even more despicable.

Pädophilie ist ein furchtbares Vergehen, aber ihre Vertuschung durch die Hierarchie ist noch abscheulicher.

69.

Loyalty and obedience are never a greater virtue than conscience and justice.

Loyalität und Gehorsam sind niemals größere Tugenden als Gewissen und Gerechtigkeit.

70.

Jesus said nothing about condoms, birth control or homosexuality.

Jesus hat nie etwas über Kondome, Geburtenkontrolle oder Homosexualität gesagt.

71.

A church that is more preoccupied with sexual wrongs than with wrongs of injustice is itself sick.

Eine Kirche, die sich mehr mit sexuellem Fehlverhalten als mit Ungerechtigkeit beschäftigt, ist selbst krank.

72.

Since homosexuality is found among 464 species and in 8 percent of any given human population, it is altogether natural for those who are born that way and is a gift from God and nature to the greater community.

Da Homosexualität sich bei 464 Spezies und bei 8 % jeder menschlichen Population findet, handelt es sich bei denen, die so geboren sind, um eine völlig natürliche Sache, um eine

Gabe Gottes und der Natur für die größere Gemeinschaft.

73.

Homophobia in any form is a serious sin against love of neighbor, a sin of ignorance of the richness and diversity of God’s creation as well as a sin of exclusion.

Homophobie ist in jeder Form eine ernste Sünde gegen die Nächstenliebe, eine Sünde gegen den Reichtum und die Vielfalt in Gottes Schöpfung wie auch eine Sünde der Ausgrenzung.

74.

Racism, Sexism and militarism are also serious sins.

Rassismus, Sexismus und Militarismus sind ebenfalls ernsthafte Sünden.

75.

Poverty for the many and luxury for the few is not right or sustainable.

Armut für die vielen und Luxus für wenige ist weder rechtens noch nachhaltig.

76.

Consumerism is today’s version of gluttony and needs to be confronted by creating an economic system that works for all peoples and all earth’s creatures.

Konsumismus ist die zeitgenössische Variante der Genußsucht und muß dadurch nicht Frage gestellt werden, daß ein Wirtschaftssystem aufgebaut wird, das allen Völkern und allen

Wesen der Erde dient.

77.

Seminaries as we know them, with their excessive emphasis on left-brain work, often kill and corrupt the mystical soul of the young instead of encouraging the mysticism and prophetic consciousness that is there. They should be replaced by wisdom schools.

Die Universitäten, wie wir sie heute kennen, mit ihrer extremen Betonung der linken Hirnhälfte, töten und korrumpieren die mystische Seele der Jugend statt das vorhandene mystische und prophetische Bewußtsein zu ermutigen. Sie sollten durch Weisheitsschulen ersetzt werden.

78.

Inner work is required of us all. Therefore spiritual practices of meditation should be available to all and this helps in calming the reptilian brain. Silence or contemplation and learning to be still can and ought to be taught to all children and adults.

Innere Arbeit ist von uns allen gefordert. Deshalb sollten allen Menschen spirituelle Praktiken und Meditationen zugänglich sein und dabei helfen, das Reptiliengehirn zu beruhigen. Alle Kinder und Erwachsenen sollten Stille oder Kontemplation und Stillwerden lernen.

79.

Outer work needs to flow from our inner work just as action flows from non-action and true action from being.

Die äußere Arbeit muß von unserer inneren Arbeit ausfließen, so wie Handlung aus dem Nicht-Handeln entsteht und wahres Handeln aus dem Sein.

80.

A wise test of right action is this: What is the effect of this action on people seven generations from today?

Eine weise Prüfung für rechtes Handeln ist: Wie ist die Wirkung dieser Handlung auf die Menschen der siebten Generation nach uns?

81.

Another test of right action is this: Is what I am doing, is what we are doing, beautiful or not?

Ein anderer Test für rechtes Handeln ist: Ist meine Handlung, ist unsere Handlung schön?

82.

Eros, the passion for living, is a virtue that combats acedia or the lack of energy to begin new things and is also expressed as depression, cynicism or sloth (also known as “couchpotatoitis”).

Eros, die Leidenschaft für das Leben, ist eine Tugend, die der Trägheit entgegenwirkt oder dem Energiemangel, Neues zu beginnen, der sich auch als Depression, Zynismus und Faulheit ausdrückt.

83.

The Dark Night of the Soul descends on us all and the proper response is not addiction such as shopping, alcohol, drugs, TV, sex or religion but rather to be with the darkness and learn from it.

Die dunkle Nacht der Seele befällt uns alle; und die angemessene Antwort darauf besteht nicht in einem Suchtverhalten wie Einkaufen, Alkohol, Drogen, TV, Sex oder Religion, sondern darin, mit der Dunkelheit zu gehen und daraus zu lernen.

84.

he Dark Night of the Soul is a learning place of great depth. Stillness is required.

Die dunkle Nacht der Seele ist ein Ort sehr tiefen Lernens. Dazu bedarf es der Stille.

85.

Not only is there a Dark Night of the Soul but also a Dark Night of Society and a Dark Night of our Species.

Es gibt nicht nur eine dunkle Nacht der Seele, sondern auch eine dunkle Nacht der Gesellschaft und eine dunkle Nacht unserer Spezies, der Menschheit.

86.

Chaos is a friend and a teacher and an integral part or prelude to new birth. Therefore it is not to be feared or compulsively controlled.

Chaos ist ein Freund und Lehrer und ein notwendiger Teil oder ein Vorspiel jeder Neugeburt. Deshalb braucht man es nicht zu fürchten oder zwanghaft zu kontrollieren.

87.

Authentic science can and must be one of humanity’s sources of wisdom for it is a source of sacred awe, of childlike wonder, and of truth.

Echte Wissenschaft kann und muß eine der Weisheitsquellen der Menschheit sein, denn sie ist eine Quelle heiliger Ehrfurcht, kindlichen Staunens und der Wahrheit.

88.

When science teaches that matter is “frozen light” (physicist David Bohm) it is freeing human thought from scapegoating flesh as something evil and instead reassuring us that all things are light. This same teaching is found in the Christian Gospels (Christ is the light in all things) and in Buddhist teaching (the Buddha nature is in all things). Therefore, flesh does not sin; it is our choices that are sometimes off center.

Wenn die Wissenschaft lehrt, daß Materie „gefrorenes Licht“ sei (Physiker David Bohm), dann befreit sie damit die Menschheit davon, das Fleisch zum Sündenbock des Bösen zu machen und versichert uns statt dessen, daß alle Dinge Licht sind. Die gleiche Lehre findet sich in den Evangelien (Christus ist das Licht in allen Dingen) und in den buddhistischen Lehren (die Buddha-Natur ist in allen Dingen). Deshalb ist das Fleisch nicht sündig; unsere Entscheidungen sind es, die manchmal an der Sache vorbeigehen.

89.

The proper objects of the human heart are truth and justice (Aquinas) and all people have a right to these through healthy education and healthy government.

Die angemessenen Ziele des menschlichen Herzens sind Wahrheit und Gerechtigkeit (Thomas von Aquin), und alle Menschen haben ein Recht, mit Hilfe von gesunder Bildung und gesunder Regierung dahin zu gelangen.

90.

"God” is only one name for the Divine One and there are an infinite number of names for God and Godhead and still God “has no name and will never be given a name.” (Eckhart)

"Gott" ist nur ein Name des Göttlichen. Es gibt unzählige Namen für Gott und die Gottheit, und doch „hat Gott keinen Namen und wird niemals benannt werden“ (Meister Eckhart)

91.

Three highways into the heart are silence and love and grief.

Drei Wege ins Herz sind die Stille, die Liebe und die Trauer.

92.

The grief in the human heart needs to be attended to by rituals and practices that, when practiced, will lessen anger and allow creativity to flow anew.

Wir müssen uns mit Hilfe von Ritualen und Übungen um die Trauer im menschlichen Herzen kümmern, die die Wut mindern und die Kreativität wieder in Fluß bringen.

93.

Two highways out of the heart are creativity and acts of justice and compassion.

Zwei Wege aus unserem Herzen sind die Kreativität und Taten der Gerechtigkeit und des Mitgefühls.

94.

Since angels learn exclusively by intuition, when we develop our powers of intuition we can expect to meet angels along the way.

Da Engel ausschließlich durch Intuition lernen, können wir bei der Entwicklung unserer intuitiven Kräfte damit rechnen, Engeln zu begegnen.

95.

True intelligence includes feeling, sensitivity, beauty, the gift of nourishment and humor which is a gift of the Spirit, paradox, being its sister.

Echte Intelligenz umfaßt Gefühle, Sensibilität, Schönheit, die Gabe der Zuwendung und des Humors, der eine Geisteskraft ist, mit der Paradoxie als Schwester.

[Dan56]

Dan you do not see because you do not want to. It iss plain to see that there is no excuse for any type of ignorance in the other scripture as it clearly states the knowledge is there everywhere one looks in creation. I'll repost the verse again so you can reread it.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse Romans 1:16-20 (KJV)

No one could miss this contradiction unless they wished to. This is the reason why I believe you don't see any contradictions. You choose not to.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse (Romans 1:16-20).

For me, these verses are directed to those who hold the truth, but continue to remain ungodly and unrighteous. God revealed the invisible things to show them the truth. Once the invisible things of God are clearly seen by a person, the visible things are understood, along with the power that created all that is. Everyone may physically see the 'lilies of the field, how they toil not', but they do not automatically attribute what is seen to be of God, but rather a miracle of nature.

When I see scripture which appears to be contradictory, I search for clarification to clear-up what generally turns-out to be my own confusion.

As for understanding, I do not see people getting healed in large numbers by any church (no matter what their faith) and this despite Jesus reported to have said they would do this and more.

Jesus was talking to his disciples when he said they would 'do this and more'. And the Apostles did do more. I believe that the miracles of healing were given to the Apostles to establish the Gospel, and not to the church itself. Churches can pray for the sick and anoint the sick, but I've never seen them heal anyone. If churches had that power, no one would ever die!

[Pete]

Jesus was talking to his disciples when he said they would 'do this and more'. And the Apostles did do more. I believe that the miracles of healing were given to the Apostles to establish the Gospel, and not to the church itself. Churches can pray for the sick and anoint the sick, but I've never seen them heal anyone. If churches had that power, no one would ever die!

Sorry Dan but I do not see that. See:-

John 14:12-14 (New International Version)

¹²I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these,

It seems to me that Jesus said (according to the Bible) anyone who has faith in me.

Edited January 15, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

I hope people do not mind if I print the 95 theses here (Taken from http://matthewfoxcs.blogspot.com/)

1.

God is both Mother and Father.......

Pete, thank you for posting this. This is simply what Yeshua lived and taught before the "corrector" got hold of it. Of course, it is not status-quo-ianity and so some will disdain it and even "rail" at it calling it "liberal." But... so what? It has been said anyway. Everyone can choose to take it or leave it.

Matthew Fox demonstrates his own surpassing poetical joy in mentioning these items which actually are fully in accordance with the original Aramaic writing, whether he is aware of it or not.

Some dear folks are so programmed by Rome that they do not even realize it. They haven't a clue.... yet.

However, not everyone is programmed by Rome. I have no idea if Matthew Fox knows about the original writings. I will have to find out more about him.

If he does not, it only goes to show that the Spirit is speaking right here among us. Yes indeed. If he does, at least he is not "quoting" it but has taken it within and processed it in a most creative way.

The items he is pointing out here are the exact items I have been talking about in my posts. This inspiring writing of Matthew Fox is most excellent Pete. Not only to I just "agree" with it but it is my inner revelation and also the inner revelation of many many others who, like Matthew Fox, have seriously done some intense seeking.

Some dear folks simply cannot get beyond Roman doctines and dogmas and become an outlet for the Living Christ. That highly virulent programming is really entrenched. I still have to say that this is in no way a "liberal/conservative" issue at all. It is a "freedom/slavery" issue. And doctrines and dogmas do not set anyone free but drive them deeper and deeper into complete bondage. Very sad, but we are always responsible for our own choices despite all the false advertising to the contrary.

Well, I have said too many words here and will now put my focus elsewhere. Like this wonderful writing of Matthew Fox, few have understood a word I have said and that's entirely to be expected whenever we step outside the prison of the massive Control Paradigm now governing our entire world---a prison whose bars are complete mental hallucinations held in place by a manufactured viral thought-meme begun long ago.

When we finally get down to the root of this slavery, we will simply shift our thinking and see that there was no steel box to begin with--except the one of our own making through abdication of our God-given free will over to tyrants who did not have our best interest nor Christ's gift in mind at all.

Even those who may have an inkling that something is amiss with the ianity still do not realize how virulent and serious this disease really is. However, healing is always available to all who call upon the name of the Lord and do more than just mouth the words. It is a heart matter---just the opposite of the manufactured doctrines and dogmas.

Thank you again for this thread and for all your sharing and everyone else's wonderful sharing also.

Peace be upon the earth and among all beings.

namaste

[Bro. Hex]

Matthew Fox demonstrates his own surpassing poetical joy in mentioning these items which actually are fully in accordance with the original Aramaic writing, whether he is aware of it or not.

I am truly curious, Nestingwave,

Which "original Aramaic writing" are you referring to in the above quote?

These "95 Theses" of Martin Luther were, of course, originally written "in German".

Are you suggesting that the 95 Theses were actually written "by someone else, in an earlier age"?

Do you suggest that Luther simply translated from the Aramaic into the German language, the words of some other author?

Can you identify the "original source"?

Can you identify the "original (Aramaic) author"?

[RevRainbow]

In truth, there is only danger in rejecting the Bible if the Bible has value that cannot be found elsewhere. Many who reject the bible go on to embrace non-Biblical faiths. Do you mean to say that non-Biblical faiths have less value than Biblical faiths and are, as you put it, "truth of our own devices" "with no foundation other than ego"? I don't think it is whatyou mean to say, but i see little room for your words here to mean anything else.

Guess Ill have to clarify, but it's been a little hectic around here today. Ill get back tomorrow. I'm not puttin ya off, I think you know that. I appreciate your interest in my comments.

A good tree cannot give forth corrupt fruit. What are the fruits of the Bible, if not its believers?

I dont know of any fruits of the bible, only of the Spirit. If Christians would open their spiritual eyes, they would not be misunderstanding the bible so much. Most Christians fail to realize that we should not interpret the bible for our convenience, but comment according to our (spiritual) understanding.