Liberal Christianity

[Dan56]

God knows the heart and, if for whatever reason, a person has not known or understood Christ and yet displays the "fruits" of good works - not that the good works in themselves save - and has a loving, compassionate and forgiving spirit, do you not think that he too shall be loved, and that God would have compassion and thus forgive him through the power of the risen Christ?

That makes sense to me. I believe everyone will have an opportunity to accept salvation through Christ, especially the good Samaritans among us.

[Fawzo]

Nice post brother!

I agree that validation from others is not important, that is just my awkward and clumsy choice of words as I was trying to find a sense of commoness and fellowship with others.

This is what I love hearing and what I would hope that all the Worlds Major Religions would help teach and focus on!!!!!!!!!

This is what I feel any message based in Truth would be all about.

The sad thing though is that many of the world systems seem to hint at an exclusivity that seems to narrows ones views and separate us. Unity, tolerance and acceptance are antithetical to its viewpoints and walls are erected without doorways. Sometimes it takes a person with a sledgehammer constantly pounding against these walls to poke a few holes in them before each side starts to see some light.

Isn't one of the things a lot of Christians and other religions fear most, which would help create a more stable and peaceful planet is a One world Religion and Government? A religion which taught us about our similarities in our beliefs of the Fatherhood/Motherhood of the Divine and a true brotherhood. A brotherhod that teaches of the importance of the worth of each individual in our quest for the survival and evolution of our species and the planet. Not just the importance of each individual in our own present system but the value of the system we leave to those future generations who we learn to value as highly as oursleves.

Is such a system possible or are we eternally doomed to our own indiviual dogmas where we chase our own tails, because we have no vision and can only see what wags right in front of our face?

Edited January 9, 2010 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

That makes sense to me. I believe everyone will have an opportunity to accept salvation through Christ, especially the good Samaritans among us.

So if you do believe that there are such people as Good Samaritans that can arise indepently of any knowledge of Christ or the Bible in other cultures around the world, then you must ask yourself how they came to be. One thought that might cross your mind is that this "potential" might exist in all peoples. Then you might naturally ask yourself what is this potential which rests in all peoples and where does it originate. Why do some have it and others seem to lack it completely.

My own answers to these self questions are that this potential is the spark of the Divine which exists at the core of every being on our planet. These sparks are eternal flames or energy which can never be destroyed. They can be hidden under very dense objects and hard to find, but they also can also be fueled to create large bon fires hard to ignore. Love and virtues feed the flames and help to keep it dynamic, sometime growing to bon fire proportions (such as Saints), while Fear and what you would call Sin create a static shell which hides it so well it can only be found by expert PaleoSpirtualtists.

Think of our own dimension and the physical properties of water. The smallest crack or opening and water quickly flows in to fill it. Now try to imagine the Spirit of God something that vibrates at such an imperceptble rate and highly more dynamic and fluid than any liquid or element in our Universe. Every niche, crock and nanny would be filled by its presence.

This why I feel one only has to figuratively open their heart a tiny wee bit to have God come in and fill it.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Fawzo

[Pete]

I feel I need to talk a little about my journey as Rev Rainbow and Nestingwave have done so.

I do not want to go into every details, except to say it has been a life of some very painful knocks.

I was brought up by a religious family. They were very strict (when I say very I mean very) in their upbringing. Something, that I am both grateful for and also regret. Grateful for the self discipline and the fact that I have not fallen into some of the perils this world has (crime etc), but regretful for not being able to see the Spirituality of those who did not think as we were brought up to. I was strongly encouraged not to mix with those who did not go to church. They were sinners and people of low morals or as I was led to believe then.

I will not go into how strict things were except to say that when I left home, I was just about fearful of most people and situations. They did not think as I did and I feared going astray but at the same time feared being very lonely. I gradually made friends with people and started to release that fear of others and differing beliefs (although in my heart I remained judgemental of them at first). In finding their humanity, I felt challenged. I started to feel anger because of the control that I had been brought up with had far from making me more able to cope with life, had brought me to feel disabled socially and for many situations in life.

I guess in order to grow among other people I needed to change. The anger led me to eventually reject the faith of my upbringing and I became an atheist and studied dialectical materialism in preference to religion.

It was later in life that I began to feel that something was missing from my life and slowly I began to study more spiritual works and personal development. I then began to pick up some of my original faith and started going to church again. It is true, that I that I began again to believe that every word of the bible was true and I could take it for fact. On reading again God's judgement plan, I began to think of everyone who did not see things as I did. They were good people who were struggling with this life too. They attempted to make sense of things of life just as I had done but came to differing conclusions. I gradually began to recognise that what I believed was not loving at all. It was judgemental, condemning and lacked any sort of compassion. How could a loving God condemn these loving people I had met to eternal hell. How could a God who can see into the hearts of people not notice how hard it is for many people in this world and not notice that the efforts to make sense in this world was a call for something more. Some loving people I know are atheists, agnostics and also from other faiths. How could a loving God condemn these people who have struggled with a world that is so full of suffering and it is their love and humanity that appear to be the world's saving grace (IMO). I also began to read of some of the things the church had done over the years and became aware that not all things good came from the church or any other religion or none faith. It came from compassion and recognition of the humanity of others. It did not come from dogma or fancy argument. It came via people being able to love one another.

I do not reject my faith in God or in Jesus but I began to realise that Jesus' life was made out of a struggle to make sense of things and to bring love into a world that needed to stop hating each other. What he said made sense to the mindset of the time. I began to recognise that God was not a force for dogma but for love. Dogma was just mankind's understanding and not that of God's. People who wrote the bible tried in their mindset to make sense of things for their time period, just as I believe we do today. Some of the verses in the bible were very loving. I love the declaration of God being love and commanding others to love and that Jesus' argued those without sin throw the first stone. I began to then recognise that in order to love that one often has to look beyond a person's beliefs and see who they truly are. Not evil, misguided, or fallen but making sense in a world that is in a mess but also could produce many loving things. How could a God condemn all on the basis of just one dogma. I then came to the conclusion that love it or hate it, I was a liberal and I could not go back.

For me, either God is loving and understanding or God is not, and if not then God is not worth the worshiping (IMO). I believe God is loving and the source of love.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Pete

[nestingwave]

This is what I love hearing and what I would hope that all the Worlds Major Religions would help teach and focus on!!!!!!!!!

This is what I feel any message based in Truth would be all about.

The sad thing though is that many of the world systems seem to hint at an exclusivity that seems to narrows ones views and separate us. Unity, tolerance and acceptance are antithetical to its viewpoints and walls are erected without doorways. Sometimes it takes a person with a sledgehammer constantly pounding against these walls to poke a few holes in them before each side starts to see some light.

Isn't one of the things a lot of Christians and other religions fear most, which would help create a more stable and peaceful planet is a One world Religion and Government? A religion which taught us about our similarities in our beliefs of the Fatherhood/Motherhood of the Divine and a true brotherhood. A brotherhod that teaches of the importance of the worth of each individual in our quest for the survival and evolution of our species and the planet. Not just the importance of each individual in our own present system but the value of the system we leave to those future generations who we learn to value as highly as oursleves.

Is such a system possible or are we eternally doomed to our own individual dogmas where we chase our own tails, because we have no vision and can only see what wags right in front of our face?

Thank you Fawzo for yet another excellent communication--something more than meets the eye--something that stirs our deepest heart yearning.

This thread is bringing out something of real eternal value--a kind of "AHA" that in spite of differences of "opinions" dissolves into passionate compassion beyond all restrictions.

And thank you Pete for so stimulating us. In other words, bringing us to the outer edge of the fourth dimensional world in which we live and allowing us to peek through a portal which we ordinarily assume is a barrier impossible to see beyond.

I tell you brothers, we are already multidimensional beings. We live in a world of four dimensions. 1) width, 2) length, 3) depth... and.... 4) duration (linear time). It is that fourth dimension which is the portal to Intelligent Infinity (our Creator at the root of the entire Great Creation in which we live, move and have our being and are co-creators.)

Yes, we are already multidimensional beings, but are about to become consiously aware interdimensional beings.

When genuine fellowship takes place, we meet in the heart. It is our linear cognitive mind that takes us on separate (but sometimes overlapping) linear time-lines of our own individual construction. When we meet in the heart, we are consciously aware of the fact that we are One. Linear time slows and stops. We are in the "now." From this vantage point, all dimensions then come into focus.

Fear and anxiety are enemies of this state of fellowship for which our deepest being continually yearns. It is an Egalitarian Fellowship without hierarchy but where those of more experience and wisdom take the lead to do things by living example. Yeshua is our elder brother in this-- a First Among Equals. He never pointed to himself but always to Our Father--Our Source. He called himself, "the son-of-man." That is because he took physical limitations upon himself for the sake of clear communication with other beings who could not have related at all to him otherwise.

He was 100% man and 100% God. You and I are also. However, we simply have not realized that yet. HU- MAN means exactly that--- GOD-MAN. "We shall be LIKE HIM..." No doubt about it but it is entirely up to us. We already are all that we will ever be but in linear time we are becoming more and more consciously aware of who and what we are. It is an awakening from amnesia, a re-discovery of what already is and it is a matter of our individual will of choice.

So, we are able to participate in this fellowship because, regardless of various opinions, we have all made that choice for the Universal Life in which all creatures live, more and have their being. At the level of the heart we recognize the fact of Oneness.

Fear is the direct opposite of love. "Hate" is just the insistant ego-self preservative of the fear about what is not known by the cognitive mind and cannot be "figured out" by linear thinking, upon which we (here in our present earth cultures) have come to almost fully rely.

That is changing rapidly.

Yes, Fawzo, there will be One World Religion and One World Government. But the terms "religion" and "government" will be defined much differently than now-- and in fact will not even be used. A new way of thinking requires an entirely new languaging system. These terms are at present limited to "sectarianism" and "rule." Neither of these terms fit this Egalitarian Fellowship which we are tasting right here on this forum.

The "fear" of One World Government is based upon our experiences of totalitarianism where governments RULE by force of arms and make slaves to do the bidding of the "state." This is our present experience. One World Religion is feared because people can imagine a world-wide priestcraft of ungodliness that will cut off your head unless you buy the goods. hmmmm.... sounds like all history up until now.

However, all of these imaginary fears are subsumed by an entirely new state of consciousness and an entirely new way of thinking. Many still cannot see this coming despite the growing evidence. And so, despair sets in because everyone knows deep in their guts that the present way of doing things is 100% UNSUSTAINABLE. Everyone knows within their own being that violence begets violence and control begets control and war begets war and ignoring of Universal Law begets destruction.

So, either a person feels despair and a complete lack of hope... or... a person realizes that "business as usual" is finished forever because every trainwreck can be seen about to occur just before it happens.

My hope, my passion, my joy, my faith and surety is that our Mother Earth will not be destroyed but will host a new civilization. In fact, our planet is far more than we think or know. It is a unique and diverse cradle of life in this quadrant to be enjoyed by all beings. In The Book of Revelation the New Jerusalem comes down OUT of heaven.... where? ONTO THE EARTH. The meek shall inherit heaven? Nope. The meek shall inherit the EARTH. This, my friends is not Utopia. It is not perfection but it is simply an awareness of the Oneness of all things and all beings. It is basic... SANITY. Thus a respect for the entire web of life, including ourselves, emerges. This is not heavenly perfection, only a very first baby step on that long journey home. You can't go home until you learned the lessons you came here to learn and the one you are now experiencing is only kindergarten. You chose to do this. You are a volunteer.

And, when you do graduate, you might prefer to stick around for the sake of uplifting all the other beings engaged in the same school room. (The Buddhists call this a Bodhisatva---like Yeshua)

Or, if you prefer, you can continue on the escalating downward spiral to self-destruction that our present civilization so passionately embraces. That is the choice that we ALL make. Granted it takes courage to swim against the undertow but acknowledging Yeshua's prayer in John 17 is a great helper. I think all of us here in this fellowship of Universal Life are making the same choice and that's why we can experience the Oneness of heart and the profound joy beyond words (and thought) which it brings.

By this little and simple interconnected fellowship we have the possibility of hearing that echo and it is no longer a theory written in a book for we prove it to ourselves beyond any doubt. Isn't that what "the called-out ones" are really about? We call ourselves out by calling upon the name of the Lord and we can do that because we hear and pay attention to the still small voice within. This is a realm in an entirely different dimension than the doctrines and dogmas of sectarian religion.

namaste

[RevRainbow]

Thanks for sharing your story, Pete. methinks that those of us who grew up in the 50's. rebelled in the 60's and tried to settle down in the 70's (with very poor taste in clothing styles, btw) somehow knew we were searching for something we knew existed beyond the conformity and dogmas of religion. We had a certain sense of peace about religion and God but deep down knew that there was something contradictory about a merciful, loving God who also cast souls into a burning hell for eternity. A loving Creator would not be constantly judging His creations as inferior, tossing them off into the everlasting furnace.

We dont have the answers, only a little better view, a clearer picture of the God we know IS and always will be.

Nesty, one of the nasties in the Book of Revelation is the move toward one world religion and government established by the antichrist through the Beast. Also within is a glimpse of the Millenium Kingdom which is also a one world "religion" and government ruled by Christ for 1000 years. We must be cautious to be able to spiritually discern between the mark of the Beast which is 666 (imperfection) and the mark of God which is 777 (perfection). Methinks that with the coming New Heaven and New earth that is prophecied, mankind's attempt at One World status will be imperfect as the old order tries to hold on to it's possessions and control. We must realize this and see it as a sign of the Second Coming. We must not accept the number of the Beast (imperfection) to be imprinted on ourselves, being deceived by words and wonders but endure the tribulations to come awaiting the dawn of a New Age, the visible Kingdom of God (777) with Christ in Control.

Edited January 9, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Pete]

Nesty, one of the nasties in the Book of Revelation is the move toward one world religion and government established by the antichrist through the Beast. Also within is a glimpse of the Millenium Kingdom which is also a one world "religion" and government ruled by Christ for 1000 years. We must be cautious to be able to spiritually discern between the mark of the Beast which is 666 (imperfection) and the mark of God which is 777 (perfection). Methinks that with the coming New Heaven and New earth that is prophecied, mankind's attempt at One World status will be imperfect as the old order tries to hold on to it's possessions and control. We must realize this and see it as a sign of the Second Coming. We must not accept the number of the Beast (imperfection) to be imprinted on ourselves, being deceived by words and wonders but endure the tribulations to come awaiting the dawn of a New Age, the visible Kingdom of God (777) with Christ in Control.

I think Revelations was written for a people suffering from a one world government (Rome) and ruled by a beast (Caesar) and hopeful of the coming of Christ again within their lifetime. I am not sure it is talking about a future world state. I know that would seem to some that maybe either the bible got it wrong or I am getting it wrong and there is another world government that will be ruled by another tyrant. However, judging by the last 2,000 years we have been threatened by many tyrants and the church has been one of them (IMO).

I personally believe either we learn from the past or we will make misery for the future. Excepting an unexpected ecological disaster, the future is in our hands. Either that is tolerance and love by all or more of the same for the next 2,000 years (if we last that long?).

[nestingwave]

I feel I need to talk a little about my journey as Rev Rainbow and Nestingwave have done so.

I do not want to go into every details, except to say it has been a life of some very painful knocks.

I was brought up by a religious family. They were very strict (when I say very I mean very) in their upbringing. Something, that I am both grateful for and also regret. Grateful for the self discipline and the fact that I have not fallen into some of the perils this world has (crime etc), but regretful for not being able to see the Spirituality of those who did not think as we were brought up to. I was strongly encouraged not to mix with those who did not go to church. They were sinners and people of low morals or as I was led to believe then.

I will not go into how strict things were except to say that when I left home, I was just about fearful of most people and situations. They did not think as I did and I feared going astray but at the same time feared being very lonely. I gradually made friends with people and started to release that fear of others and differing beliefs (although in my heart I remained judgemental of them at first). In finding their humanity, I felt challenged. I started to feel anger because of the control that I had been brought up with had far from making me more able to cope with life, had brought me to feel disabled socially and for many situations in life.

I guess in order to grow among other people I needed to change. The anger led me to eventually reject the faith of my upbringing and I became an atheist and studied dialectical materialism in preference to religion.

It was later in life that I began to feel that something was missing from my life and slowly I began to study more spiritual works and personal development. I then began to pick up some of my original faith and started going to church again. It is true, that I that I began again to believe that every word of the bible was true and I could take it for fact. On reading again God's judgement plan, I began to think of everyone who did not see things as I did. They were good people who were struggling with this life too. They attempted to make sense of things of life just as I had done but came to differing conclusions. I gradually began to recognise that what I believed was not loving at all. It was judgemental, condemning and lacked any sort of compassion. How could a loving God condemn these loving people I had met to eternal hell. How could a God who can see into the hearts of people not notice how hard it is for many people in this world and not notice that the efforts to make sense in this world was a call for something more. Some loving people I know are atheists, agnostics and also from other faiths. How could a loving God condemn these people who have struggled with a world that is so full of suffering and it is their love and humanity that appear to be the world's saving grace (IMO). I also began to read of some of the things the church had done over the years and became aware that not all things good came from the church or any other religion or none faith. It came from compassion and recognition of the humanity of others. It did not come from dogma or fancy argument. It came via people being able to love one another.

I do not reject my faith in God or in Jesus but I began to realise that Jesus' life was made out of a struggle to make sense of things and to bring love into a world that needed to stop hating each other. What he said made sense to the mindset of the time. I began to recognise that God was not a force for dogma but for love. Dogma was just mankind's understanding and not that of God's. People who wrote the bible tried in their mindset to make sense of things for their time period, just as I believe we do today. Some of the verses in the bible were very loving. I love the declaration of God being love and commanding others to love and that Jesus' argued those without sin throw the first stone. I began to then recognise that in order to love that one often has to look beyond a person's beliefs and see who they truly are. Not evil, misguided, or fallen but making sense in a world that is in a mess but also could produce many loving things. How could a God condemn all on the basis of just one dogma. I then came to the conclusion that love it or hate it, I was a liberal and I could not go back.

For me, either God is loving and understanding or God is not, and if not then God is not worth the worshiping (IMO). I believe God is loving and the source of love.

The fearsome, terrible God of wrath and destruction and the God of love are One in the same, depending upon your own individual interpretation of Almighty God according to your individual experience. The God of Wrath and destruction whips his slaves into shape and the God of love brings the enlightenment that all is One in Love beyond words. You get whatever you call upon from your deepest spiritual signature.

Thanks for sharing your journey so honestly, Pete. However, I wouldn't call it "liberal" nor would I call dogmatism "conservative." Those terms have been so far distorted from their original meaning that they have now lost all communication.

The word "liberal" for example is now used in a very negative way to mean Marxist Communist, Socialist, Amoralist, Atheist, UnAmerican, Welfare Statist, Homosexual Activist by many demagogs---even though "liberal" thought was an essential part of the very founding of this nation. And in reality "liberal" means absolutely none of todays distorted definitions. That's how language gets twisted and used by people for their own purposes.

"Conservative," that is suppose to be about less government control and more fiscal responsibility, has in recent years made the U.S. government into a distorted megalithic monster of mega-control which is totally controlled by $$$ and "Corporate Fascism" which is a far more accurate definition of what our government now is---both "liberal" AND "conservative."

Those two terms (liberal and conservative) are now used to perpetrate an "us" and "them" political distraction to keep folks occupied with utterly foolish name calling instead of waking up to the slavery engulfing them from every side. The magician always distracts the audience away from his tricks. It works well with a wooed hypnotized audience constantly consuming false advertising and venting their rage upon imaginary "enemies.". Keeps the herd docile---like a punching bag in the basement upon which to take out ones frustrated aggressions.

Recognizing the Oneness is not "liberal" in the present usage of that highly distorted word.

Your spiritual journey, like most of us, was a bumpy road. That is not abnormal but normal. Your dear parents were only following what had been handed down to them through many centuries of planet earth's dysfunctional self-destruction among human beings fighting themselves.

However, when push came to shove your seeking did not cease. So, although your parents were restrictive, they were so because in their very limited concepts they felt it was their responsibility to give you training and direction in life about what they themselves had experienced---which they did, although you slowly went through the process of sorting out the wheat from the chaff and. like all of us, are still in that process.

Restrictive prison is both a blessing and a curse. It is a curse in that we only want to get out of it and feel much suffering at the time because the human spirit desires freedom above all else. But, it is a blessing in that it causes us to deeply question and find out for ourselves what's real and what isn't.

This is the way all nature works.

The chrysalis prison of the caterpillar/butterfly is necessary for it to finally overcome and become. It emerges into an entirely diffrerent realm which was beyond its imagination as a caterpillar--thanks to the restrictive prison which made it strong enough to fly.

Seeing it this way will bring forgiveness toward the past actions of yourself and others. With such forgiveness, you are free. And, no doubt, you are already experiencing that.

All of mankind has been laboring under the prison of the "vain traditions of the fathers," which is the terminology the Bible uses. One generation teaches these vain traditions and the next generation does as they have been taught. Distortion is compounded over and over again until someone finally awakens and says, "wait a minute, I see the repetitious loop of this destructive programming and know there is a much better way."

That is an act of faith, since you know there is a better way but not precisely what it is. You have to seek it with all your heart, soul and mind to find it, since long-time generational programming is very difficult to overcome and no one can tell you how to do it, only point out the direction---look within and hear the very still, small voice constantly speaking to you---and that is hard to do, as long as the fear and angst and frustration of the destructive program still prevails to keep you fighting windmills.

Forgiveness of yourself and others opens the way for compassion and understanding and ends the fear, angst, doubt and anger at having been so duped. Of course, if you hadn't gone through all this, you would have never had the drive to seek with all you heart, mind and soul, as Yeshua and many others highly recommend.

This simple understanding has brought many families back together after years and years of separation over differences of religious opinion.

-------------------------------

I just heard a true story from my wife that I wish to share with all.

Perhaps you are all familiar with Sothbys? This is a NY auctioning firm that auctions off very expensive items such as fine paintings, art works, jewelry etc.

One time Sothbys put ONE TON OF HORSE MANURE up for auction. There were no bids and great puzzlement among the wealthy bidders who were expecting to aquire something of great value.

"What is this?" they whispered to each other.

Finally, after a long silence, the auctioneer cleared his throat and said, "Now, ladies and gentlemen, I remind you that Sothbys can ship anything to anywhere in the country. So, perhaps you may want to send this item as a gift... to a.... friend?"

Suddenly the bids exploded!

(a humorous and kind way to make a statement?) <=== better than an annonymous turd in a flaming paper sack on someone's front porch. Why? Because at least the gift from Sothby's opens up the possibility for two-way communication with a "thank you" note.

namaste

[Pete]

Hi Nestingwave. Thanks for your post but I do not have to forgive my parents and as you rightly say, they were a product of their personal journey as I am mine. I told the story not to blame my parents or gain sympathy but speak about how a ministry of love can if not checked, can have the opposite affect. If we hang onto every word of something being so correct then it sometimes prevents one from seeing the reality of something else. I have heard from people who speak about heretics deserving their fate and how many deserve to suffer for ever because they contradicted a particular doctrine. The point I was attempting to make is that sometimes a person can be so right according to a dogma, they are wrong or end up achieving something that they thought they had hope to avoid or ministered against.

I call myself a Liberal, not in a sense of politics but in the sense of where I mainly stand in the theological spectrum.

See:-

"What is a Liberal Christian?

Sometimes liberals are thought to be Christians who have backslidden; people who don't have enough faith, or are too "in the world." Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth. Liberal Christians are committed believers in the Lord Jesus Christ, who have thoroughly studied the scriptures and traditions of the Church, and have examined their faith in the light of reason and experience. They believe in:

Diversity

Perhaps the defining characteristic of liberal Christians is that they are comfortable with ambiguity and diversity. They realize that life is a complex spiritual journey, and that each person on that journey is confronted with unexpected revelations and unique experiences. Liberal Christians therefore welcome a variety of approaches to understanding God, and are open to new ways of talking about the divine. Religious questions are seen as complex, and answers only tentative. Certain that "now we see through a glass, darkly" (1 Cor. 13:12), liberals are cautious about making dogmatic statements or claiming to have a monopoly on the truth. They see the search for truth as an ongoing task, rather than one that has already been completed.

A Non-Literal View of Scripture

Conservative Christians are often content to answer religious questions by appealing to the absolute authority of Scripture. Liberal Christians, on the other hand, find such an approach to be flawed. Many see the Bible as a witness to revelation, or generally inspired, rather than completely inspired in all its parts. Just as Jesus was fully human and wholey divine, so one must also see the Bible as a product of both human and divine influences. Indeed, liberal Christians are quick to point out that the falleness and imperfection of its human authors gives the Bible an imperfect quality and authority.

Liberals view Scripture through a critical lens, and are not afraid to challenge traditional assumptions and interpretations. They rely heavily on higher criticism of the Bible, which looks into the origin and composition of the biblical texts, revealing a great deal about the human aspect of Scripture. Modern philosophical, biological, and cosmological theories that are well supported by evidence, and reflect the true nature of the world around us, can also shape the way liberals interpret Scripture. Traditional Christian doctrines, such as the Virgin Birth, the Atonement, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and the Resurrection, are sometimes given new interpretations by liberals.

Perhaps more so than evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians, liberal Christians see the teachings of Jesus as having a central place. Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience are each given equal footing in determining Christian faith.

An Intimate, Personal View of God

Imminent and personal images of God in Scripture are attractive to liberals. For some this takes on the form of a belief in panentheism (Everything-in-God-ism). Liberals also see little distinction between the natural and the supernatural, and therefore do not look for "miracles" to confirm the existence of God. Instead, they feel that faith in God allows one to see the Spirit moving in the everyday stuff of life.

Universal Salvation

The concept of personal salvation is not typically stressed by liberal Christians. Accordingly, traditional images of heaven, hell, and the End Times are not given much weight in their theologies. When salvation is discussed, liberals are more apt to stress its "this worldly" aspects, and appeal to a universalist interpretation of Scripture when confronted with questions of eternal punishment and rewards.

For many liberal Christians, social justice is a central concern, and the transformation of society, rather than that of the individual, is more typically stressed. Equality for racial minorities, women, homosexuals, and the economically disadvantaged is seen as an essential part of the Gospel message. A concern for the environment, and other typically liberal social issues, also find a great deal of support among liberal Christians.

Fellowship & Community

Liberals tend to stress the centrality of community in the Christian experience. They can be found in almost all churches (from Roman Catholic to Southern Baptist), but tend to be in greater numbers in the mainline Protestant denominations: American Baptist Churches, USA; Disciples of Christ; Episcopal Church; Evangelical Lutheran Church in America; Presbyterian Church, USA; United Church of Christ, and the United Methodist Church. The Unitarian Universalist Association and the Metropolitan Community Churches are even more liberally minded.

....

I find many of the liberal Christian views on God, salvation, women, homosexuality, Scripture, and Creation to be convincing. When I was an evangelical Christian, I often felt the need to wash over historical and scientific evidence with "faith" because the world around me did not mesh with my preconceived notions about Scripture. I had questions about Evolution, the Bible, other religions, etc., but those questions were always met with criticism or simplistic answers by my fellow evangelical believers. As a liberal Christian, I don't feel like I have to be intellectually dishonest to myself any more. I can incorporate what I know about science, history, and theology into my world-view without conflict. In other words, liberal Christianity just makes more sense! It is ultimately the reason why I became one."

from:- http://jmm.aaa.net.a...icles/13746.htm

A conservative/fundamentalist on the other hand are described (for the most, however, there is variation in both conservatives and liberals) :-

http://en.wikipedia....st_Christianity

An example of a situation that often highlights our differences in the ULC forum has been when discussing whether God loves Gay people and would bless their relations. Most liberals would whole heartily say yes because it is within the spirit of love and most conservatives would say no because it contradicts the bible. Believe me, topics like this have been very explosive on this and other forums.

Yet. saying that I note Coolhand's comment of wishing we could take the best of each other and my view is that one needs to overlook some our differences and to value them (even if we disagree) before this can occur, as neither side is likely to give much on what they feel is important.

Hey! it is a big and varied world.

Edited January 9, 2010 by Pete

[Fawzo]

Thanks for sharing your story, Pete. methinks that those of us who grew up in the 50's. rebelled in the 60's and tried to settle down in the 70's (with very poor taste in clothing styles, btw) somehow knew we were searching for something we knew existed beyond the conformity and dogmas of religion. We had a certain sense of peace about religion and God but deep down knew that there was something contradictory about a merciful, loving God who also cast souls into a burning hell for eternity. A loving Creator would not be constantly judging His creations as inferior, tossing them off into the everlasting furnace.

We dont have the answers, only a little better view, a clearer picture of the God we know IS and always will be.

Nesty, one of the nasties in the Book of Revelation is the move toward one world religion and government established by the antichrist through the Beast. Also within is a glimpse of the Millenium Kingdom which is also a one world "religion" and government ruled by Christ for 1000 years. We must be cautious to be able to spiritually discern between the mark of the Beast which is 666 (imperfection) and the mark of God which is 777 (perfection). Methinks that with the coming New Heaven and New earth that is prophecied, mankind's attempt at One World status will be imperfect as the old order tries to hold on to it's possessions and control. We must realize this and see it as a sign of the Second Coming. We must not accept the number of the Beast (imperfection) to be imprinted on ourselves, being deceived by words and wonders but endure the tribulations to come awaiting the dawn of a New Age, the visible Kingdom of God (777) with Christ in Control.

This may be bizzaro logic, especially since I don't believe in any portion of Revelations, but if what you believe is true RevRainbow shouldn't Christians want the One World government as soon as possible and be helping to bring it about as soon as possible, so that Christ can start His reign and the rapture happens as soon as possible.

Doesn't doing anything to delay it just further delay the inevitable?

<in a monotone authoritave voice> Desist and surrender, resistance in futile!

[RevRainbow]

This may be bizzaro logic, especially since I don't believe in any portion of Revelations, but if what you believe is true RevRainbow shouldn't Christians want the One World government as soon as possible and be helping to bring it about as soon as possible, so that Christ can start His reign and the rapture happens as soon as possible.

Doesn't doing anything to delay it just further delay the inevitable?

<in a monotone authoritave voice> Desist and surrender, resistance in futile!

Methinks intervening and trying to hasten or delay a prophecy is very dangerous ground indeed especially when there are a multitude of interpretations. We are supposed to watch for the signs of the times, not provoke them. Gee, Fawzo, I thought you knew me better than that.

[emalpaiz]

I should not post here, because I am not a Christian; but I would like to say something. Every religion has liberals and conservatives. It is an unavoidable reality. Most of the conservatives are literalists and most liberals are allegorists. We have one Scripture, and we understand it in different ways.

As a religious liberal, I believe in the fundamental teachings of my religion just like my conservative sisters and brothers do. Nevertheless I interpret those fundamentals in a different way. I reject some current practices of my religion, because I understand that they go against the spirit of the Vedas.

Some followers of my religion believe that you can not find Enlightenment (Spiritual Emancipation, Salvation) unless you follow the strict Vedic path. That means that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Parsis, liberal Hindus (me and others like me),etc., can not find Spiritual Emancipation, Enlightenment or Salvation. For generations this attitude has been challenged by the more liberal followers of our faith. I believe that Hindus of all sects and castes, Christian, Muslims, Parsis, Atheists, Buddhists, and members of all religions who follow a path of Understanding, Love, and Compassion are already living the life of Spiritual Emancipation.

As a religious liberal I have enjoyed reading the Bible, the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, the old Gnostic texts, the Greek and Roman philosophers together with modern philosophy and science, and I have found in those teachings words that inspire me in my search for God (I have also found things that I do not understand).

I have visited Hindu temples (liberal and conservative), Christian churches of many denominations, and in each I have found people that are filled with the Spirit of Understanding, Love, Compasson, and Joy. I do not find myself a stranger among them. I continue to be who I am... a liberal Hindu. But my contact with members of other religions has changed my life in many ways... I have discovered that the Spirit of God -- under different names or no name at all -- abides in the hearts of my sisters and brothers of those different religions. I have come to understand that we all worship the same God, but we call God by different Names; I have come to understand that every religion is a different path that leads to the Divine; I have come to understand that every Sacred Book is an instrument of God written by inspired persons to help us in our path to Supreme Enlightenment.

But the most important thing that I have learned is that God is Love, and that God is the God of all.

May all my sisters and brother -- conservative and liberals -- find happiness.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

[nestingwave]

Hi Nestingwave. Thanks for your post but I do not have to forgive my parents and as you rightly say, they were a product of their personal journey as I am mine.

Ok Pete, thanks for clarifying.

namaste

[Pete]

I should not post here, because I am not a Christian; but I would like to say something. Every religion has liberals and conservatives. It is an unavoidable reality. Most of the conservatives are literalists and most liberals are allegorists. We have one Scripture, and we understand it in different ways.

As a religious liberal, I believe in the fundamental teachings of my religion just like my conservative sisters and brothers do. Nevertheless I interpret those fundamentals in a different way. I reject some current practices of my religion, because I understand that they go against the spirit of the Vedas.

Some followers of my religion believe that you can not find Enlightenment (Spiritual Emancipation, Salvation) unless you follow the strict Vedic path. That means that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Parsis, liberal Hindus (me and others like me),etc., can not find Spiritual Emancipation, Enlightenment or Salvation. For generations this attitude has been challenged by the more liberal followers of our faith. I believe that Hindus of all sects and castes, Christian, Muslims, Parsis, Atheists, Buddhists, and members of all religions who follow a path of Understanding, Love, and Compassion are already living the life of Spiritual Emancipation.

As a religious liberal I have enjoyed reading the Bible, the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, the old Gnostic texts, the Greek and Roman philosophers together with modern philosophy and science, and I have found in those teachings words that inspire me in my search for God (I have also found things that I do not understand).

I have visited Hindu temples (liberal and conservative), Christian churches of many denominations, and in each I have found people that are filled with the Spirit of Understanding, Love, Compasson, and Joy. I do not find myself a stranger among them. I continue to be who I am... a liberal Hindu. But my contact with members of other religions has changed my life in many ways... I have discovered that the Spirit of God -- under different names or no name at all -- abides in the hearts of my sisters and brothers of those different religions. I have come to understand that we all worship the same God, but we call God by different Names; I have come to understand that every religion is a different path that leads to the Divine; I have come to understand that every Sacred Book is an instrument of God written by inspired persons to help us in our path to Supreme Enlightenment.

But the most important thing that I have learned is that God is Love, and that God is the God of all.

May all my sisters and brother -- conservative and liberals -- find happiness.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

Oh Hermano,

I understand what you mean as I often found that liberals of each faith are able to see God at work in the other. Your welcome here no matter what you would call yourself. As I said in an earlier post I really do not think God minds what you call God. Thanks for the post.

[nestingwave]

I should not post here, because I am not a Christian; but I would like to say something. Every religion has liberals and conservatives. It is an unavoidable reality. Most of the conservatives are literalists and most liberals are allegorists. We have one Scripture, and we understand it in different ways.

As a religious liberal, I believe in the fundamental teachings of my religion just like my conservative sisters and brothers do. Nevertheless I interpret those fundamentals in a different way. I reject some current practices of my religion, because I understand that they go against the spirit of the Vedas.

Some followers of my religion believe that you can not find Enlightenment (Spiritual Emancipation, Salvation) unless you follow the strict Vedic path. That means that Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Parsis, liberal Hindus (me and others like me),etc., can not find Spiritual Emancipation, Enlightenment or Salvation. For generations this attitude has been challenged by the more liberal followers of our faith. I believe that Hindus of all sects and castes, Christian, Muslims, Parsis, Atheists, Buddhists, and members of all religions who follow a path of Understanding, Love, and Compassion are already living the life of Spiritual Emancipation.

As a religious liberal I have enjoyed reading the Bible, the Qur'an, the Dhammapada, the old Gnostic texts, the Greek and Roman philosophers together with modern philosophy and science, and I have found in those teachings words that inspire me in my search for God (I have also found things that I do not understand).

I have visited Hindu temples (liberal and conservative), Christian churches of many denominations, and in each I have found people that are filled with the Spirit of Understanding, Love, Compasson, and Joy. I do not find myself a stranger among them. I continue to be who I am... a liberal Hindu. But my contact with members of other religions has changed my life in many ways... I have discovered that the Spirit of God -- under different names or no name at all -- abides in the hearts of my sisters and brothers of those different religions. I have come to understand that we all worship the same God, but we call God by different Names; I have come to understand that every religion is a different path that leads to the Divine; I have come to understand that every Sacred Book is an instrument of God written by inspired persons to help us in our path to Supreme Enlightenment.

But the most important thing that I have learned is that God is Love, and that God is the God of all.

May all my sisters and brother -- conservative and liberals -- find happiness.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

Great post Hermano and my own journey is much the same. Likewise is the journey of many others. As for me, the Vedas and the Dharma greatly helped me to understand what Christ is about. Peace be upon you.

namaste

[Coolhand]

As for me, the Vedas and the Dharma greatly helped me to understand what Christ is about.

You would be my hero if you started a topic about this; I have a real interest in this!

May God richly bless you brother!

[Pete]

You would be my hero if you started a topic about this; I have a real interest in this!

May God richly bless you brother!

One of the problems with Jesus in the Vedas is that many scholars think they were doctored by early evangelical missionaries in the 18oo's

http://www.gosai.com...-the-vedas.html

Edited January 10, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

One of the problems with Jesus in the Vedas is that many scholars think they were doctored by early evangelical missionaries in the 18oo's

http://www.gosai.com...-the-vedas.html

So it seems the Bible isnt the only sacred texts claimed to be tampered with? Ah me, "what is truth?" -Pontius Pilate (allegedly)

[nestingwave]

You would be my hero if you started a topic about this; I have a real interest in this!

May God richly bless you brother!

A "hero" eh? . I'm really not that Greko-Roman but I will gladly share with you where and how to do this study for yourself. I can't do that for you and have no need to "persuade" anyone of anything. [This actually fits the present topic of this thread (Liberal Christianity) I suppose.]

I can tell you this right now. No Christian church of today (except possibly the most liberal of the liberal) will approve this study and will ridicule it. Why? Because, in many ways it uncovers some things quite contradictory to the official Greek texts penned by the Roman fathers to establish their program which is the Orthodox Christianity of today both Catholic and Protestant.

Before that, there existed a Heterodox Christianity very unpolitically correct for the ambitions of Empirical Rome.

When Orthodoxy became the official version approved by the Roman Empire, a great effort was made to utterly destroy and burn all the evidence and scriptures of the Heterodox Christianity. They were almost, but not quite, successful. The disciples of Yeshua saw it coming.

However, since contact with these original writings was forbidden, any dealing with them could get a person burned at the stake as a heretic---those who dared to seek out these original writings were all lumped under the category of "gnostics." This, in spite of the fact that your present Bible is full of some of these so-called "gnostic" ideas. John 17 is the most "gnostic" chapter in the entire Bible---one of my favorites and probably yours too. Paul is talking gnosticism when he talks about the spirit struggling against the flesh.

Remember St. Francis? He interfaced with the birds, animals as well as human beings. He was basically a follower of the earliest heterodox tradition although accepted by the Roman church which could not deny his genuine spirituality. Throughout the Christian era, the original heterodoxy has peeped through every now and then. St. John of the Cross was incarcerated by the Inquisition but God delivered him. He wrote a beautiful work entitled "Ascending Mt Carmel." Yes, he knew what Mt. Carmel was all about. One dark night, he simply walked out of the dungeon because he was needed elsewhere.

Many of those later lauded and put up on pedestals of glory as "Saints" were greatly presecuted by the Roman Church during their lives. The original Christianity could not be killed although overshadowed by the boot heel of Roman control. Of course, certain parts of that heterodox tradition dared not be mentioned if one desire to continue to draw breath.

Much false slander was leveled at this "gnostic" categorization by those formulating a state religion for Rome. They saddled all "gnostics" into one pile (makes em easier to burn) as believing that physical matter was "evil" ---which was simply not so. Yes, there were cults of gnostics that followed many erroneous and false doctrines but to saddle all gnostics with that one was just plain evil and untrue. However, it was politically expedient and had great propaganda value to win hearts and minds.

So, if you decide to undertake this study, just coming into contact with these original writings and teachings automatically makes you a heretic in the eyes of some traditionalists, even if you do not believe nor accept them. The Romans had an agenda and these original writings were not amicable to totalitarianism and Militaristic Empire. In fact, they were just the opposite.

I spent quite a number of years on this simply because I wanted to find out everything I could about the origins of Christianity.

Basically, what I found out is this: the religion we know today as Christianity was formulated a few hundred years after a very different body of scriptures and practices which were occurring right after the advent of Yeshua right up until the Roman Orthodoxy was officially formulated into being---through the Roman Church Councils of Hippo and Nicea etc. Before that, there existed a body of scriptures in Yeshua's original spoken language--- Aramaic.

The oldest of these is a gospel written by ALL the original disciples together as ONE, called "The Gospel of the Twelve." or sometimes called "The Gospel of the Nazareen." Those original Aramaic scriptures were eventually ordered by the Church to be sought out and burned. Destroy the evidence because in many respects they did not coincide with the Roman program.

The Gospel of the Twelve

This document survived the burning because it was hidden in a Tibetan Monestary for several centuries and discovered later by a Catholic Monk who took it to Rome. There, the "holy: fathers listened intently as the Monk read it aloud having translated it from the Aramaic. They absolutely loved it and felt its great Divine inspiration.... until.... it got to certain parts that contradicted their doctrines and dogmas which the holy fathers centuries before them had invented and passed down as their "inerrant" tradition never to be questioned.

The Mediterranian area came under influence from all the spirituality of the entire world. The Vedas are perhaps the oldest scriptures on earth--passed on by mouth and only written down centuries later.

Even later (500B.C.) Buddhism was born and Buddhist Monks were in Palestine during the advent of Yeshua. When the links I am giving you right below mention the "Essenes" in connection with the son-of-man, you should know that those "Essenes" were not the Qumran cult (eastern Essenes) where the Dead Sea Scrools were found but rather the Northern Essenes of Mt. Carmel. They were completely unlike the Qum Ran Essenes as you will discover. They were healers. Yeshua had direct contact with these Mt. Carmel Essenes, which were a third branch of Judaism--Pharasees, Saducees and Essenes. However, the Essences of Mt. Carmel did not accept the Temple sacrifices and the continual animal slaughter. Neither did Yeshua who taught deep respect for the entire web of life. This was just one of the stumbling blocks to the Roman fathers who put together the Greek NT as "inerrant." In fact, they considered any didactions or changes they made to be directly from the hand of Almighty God because they considered THEMSELVES to be 100% inerrant no matter what they did. They did have a highly overblown view of themselves as is easily seen by their own writings. They were deluded into believing themselves to be the creative formulators of Yeshua's gospel message. However, it had already been written down by a mutual work of all the disciples. But this was too hard for those of a Roman mind-set to swallow.

It was through the Essenes of Mt. Carmel that Yeshua had fellowship with the Buddhists. Those Buddhist Monks were welcomed by the Essenes of Mt. Carmel because they were of like mind. They were vegetarians and fully accepted reincarnation, as did Yeshua. Another stumbling block for those who could only maintain power with continual threats of eternal agony burning in the unbearable fires of hell.

So here is a list of links to get you started. It requires a whole lot to dig out this information but you will do it if you are genuinely led by the Spirit to do so. Otherwise, fine. Your choice. It can be upsetting and even infuriating to realize that many of the beliefs accepted since birth as absolute spiritual truths were a manufactured product of priestcraft with their own political agenda. It took me a long time to forgive those early Roman fathers who formulated the Greek NT. But I did. You know why? Because all their manipulations only led me to seek with my entire heart, mind and soul. Otherwise, my seeking would stop cold. Thank you Roman deceivers! This is why I will not "start a thread about it." It may be too much of a stumbling block for some to get over easily once they encounter the evidence. And really I don't care to argue, debate or promote any point whatsoever. I only know what I have learned and am glad to share it. That's all. Anyone can take it or leave it and I do not have a martyr complex. This absolutely infuriates some folks and I'd rather not be in the same room with them. <===kill the messenger

Finding out about this is strictly for those who are drawn to find out about the true origins of Christianity. It is not for me nor for anyone to change anyones belief system. Everyone must travel their own journey as the Spirit leads them. And.... these things are not hard to find out about, only they require some digging out. Most folks will simply not take the time and that is perfectly okay. Most folks feel comfortable where they are and that's fine. But, for me, when that Sunday school teacher put a huge question mark up on the blackboard and said, "see this?" THIS IS AN EVIL SNAKE---A DEADLY COBRA READY TO STRIKE--A DEMON---WHICH WILL SEND YOU TO ETERNAL HELLFIRE FOREVER AND EVER!----NEVER QUESTION THE SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY OF THOSE OVER YOU AND NEVER QUESTION THE HOLY BIBLE BECAUSE IT IS THE INERRANT WORD OF ALMIGHTY GOD IN EVERY JOT AND TITTLE!" I just had to find out if that was really true. I did. It wasn't.

However, in my case, I just had to know the origins of the religion I was given from birth---where it came from---by whom---and the controversy that surrounded it. And I could not accept only one so-called "official" point of view but needed to find out all the other points of view also and why the"official" point of view felt so threatened by them that they would resort to murder to stamp them out---all in the name of Yeshua. That question was also answered to my satisfaction---but I have nothing to "defend" nor anything to sell.

Here are some links that have thousands of other links about this subject, both pro and con. Some of them are googles on the titles below so you can sort through the thousands of links given on your own.

The Nazarene Way

The Dharma and Christianity

Buddhist Missionaries in Palestine

How Buddhism Influenced Christianity

A Brief Introduction to the Vedas

The Influence of the Vedas on Christianity

These are just a starter and you must hear the voice of the Spirit to sort this information out. To put it simply. When you find out what the teachings of the Vedas and also the Dharma of the Buiddha are, you can immediately see the similarities with Yeshua's genuine teaching before Rome forcibly monopolized their manufactured interpretation of it.

In short, the basic truth of Almighty God has always been presented on planet earth and in all religions it is interpreted, distorted, redacted and adjusted by men with an agenda of control---priestcraft. Yes, God's Word is still there... but requires seeking with all ones heart, soul and miind to discern---exactly as Yeshua strongly suggested and is mostly ignored. Most usually settle for whatever someone in authority tells them.

One simply cannot depend upon what is passed down through the agendas of history. So, ultimately one must be led by the Spirit... and, of course, that is a personal relationship which is Christs way of offering himself to whosoever will. No scripture is a textbook of "how to" anyway but pointing us where Almighty God is located and can be directly interfaced---right within us at the deepest core of our being.

And this is the truth at the root of all religions when all the erroneous baggage is finally sorted through, dealt with and removed.

namaste

[Coolhand]

Thanks for the links NW. I agree with you about the NT Greek Manuscripts. I recently had a discussion with I professor I had in my undergrad program who insists the codek siniaticus is the oldest complete NT text; dated back to 350 ad. I told him about the Khubouris Aramaic which is a complete NT text that is atleast 100 years older. It seems thier is a still a schism between the eastern and western churches; both having thier preferred texts. Having studied the Greek and the Aramaic I have come away with the feeling of having wasted time because they say the same thing; minor differences that are not (in my opinion) worth the time investment to investigate.

I will save the links and I thank you for posting them. What I am actually looking for (and am starting to doubt is out there) is someone who is interested in sharing what they know about these other religious paths. Someone who is devoted to religious paths other than Christianity that I can share, and learn different aspects of the same issues; to be taught and to understand from other views. I am currently in a masters program that requires around 2,000 pages of reading and somewhere around 65 pages of writing per class; so when someone tells me "here, you go research it" I really do not have that kind of time. Many of these other religions will be coming up in my cross cultural and anthropology studies, but studying it and knowing someone who actually is dedicated to and practices them is something completely differnt. I notice that if I want someone to list the endless problems with historic or conservative christianity, man people just get in line up and let it fly. But when I try to get someone to share positively about what they believe so I can learn from them, man I am just out of luck.

Thanks for the links NW.