Liberal Christianity

[Fawzo]

Nothing wrong with quoting material, but doesn't calling oneself a Christian imply a belief in Christ? If I thought the bible was a collection of fables, then I would not be a Christian because I would not believe the bible. People quote Shakespeare knowing he was a fictional writer, its an appreciation of fiction and not a confirmation of faith. Infallibility has nothing to do with it.

I think the good Samaritan story tells us that one doesn't even have to have knowledge of Christ or ever heard of a Bible to be a child of God.

Those who love their neighbors as themself and seek God with their whole heart and mind are the elect of God. Love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance these are the traits and the labels which makes one of Christ Mind and qualify those who deserve the Label of Christian.

One's belief about the authorship of a Book plays no part whatsoever in whether one is a Christian or not. I would rather be known as the vilest beast on the planet and exemplify the traits I metioned above than be a Bible believing fraud who condems my brother and sisters because they don't put their faith in the Bible and believe the same as I do.

The Bible is a tool nothing more. You are responsible for how you use it. It may be chipped and flaw but once a hammer gets worn do you toss it away because it isn't perfect? You may lay it down and pick up something more effective in the future once you are allowed access to such.

[Pete]

I think the good Samaritan story tells us that one doesn't even have to have knowledge of Christ or ever heard of a Bible to be a child of God.

Those who love their neighbors as themself and seek God with their whole heart and mind are the elect of God. Love, compassion, forgiveness and tolerance these are the traits and the labels which makes one of Christ Mind and qualify those who deserve the Label of Christian.

One's belief about the authorship of a Book plays no part whatsoever in whether one is a Christian or not. I would rather be known as the vilest beast on the planet and exemplify the traits I metioned above than be a Bible believing fraud who condems my brother and sisters because they don't put their faith in the Bible and believe the same as I do.

The Bible is a tool nothing more. You are responsible for how you use it. It may be chipped and flaw but once a hammer gets worn do you toss it away because it isn't perfect? You may lay it down and pick up something more effective in the future once you are allowed access to such.

Thanks Fawzo, that works for me too. Jesus was Jesus because God is God.

I recall the experience of sitting in a Quaker meetings. It is held in silence. Some are praying, some meditating, and some just in silence. The only time a person speaks (and that is usually just once in a meeting) is when they feel the Spirit moves them to do so. Many wonderful things are said and there is an incredible sense of peace felt by everyone. A waiting expectantly on God's intervention into the meeting and into the hearts of those present. It reminds me of the upper room in Acts where Jesus' followers wait expectantly on the Spirit.

We come away feeling as one and touched by the same influence that we believe that spoke to Jesus and his disciples. The remarkable thing is that although the members of the meeting come from many faiths and non-faiths alike, we each have shared the communion with the same Spirit and each persons beliefs seem to matter very little and insignificant. There is just the influence of the Spirit within.

Something I have never experienced eslewhere.

[nestingwave]

No one needs to have their faith "validated." Such divisions are just the opposite of Yeshua's teaching from what I glean from the Bible and not only that but what my own life experience tells me. Those who judge others as not having "faith" are looking into a mirror and doubting their own faith. Faith is evidence to you and is personal. It is between you and the Creator of all that is. Let no man judge you.

The meddling and judging of other people or trying to validate others as "saved," "unsaved" "damned" "liberal" "conservative" is all absolute nonsense, in my view. Faith is not political in any way and does not conform to the world system of error--both political and religious. And.... it is just this type of silliness that spills the blood of history. As long as folks point their finger in arrogance, brutal insane war will exist and be perpetrated because that is the wave-length, the frequency of brutal conflict-- no matter how benign and pious it may appear on the surface.

And, I could care less if someone calls me a "Christian" or not. I have had plenty of fingers pointed at me including much tongue wagging and I say, "So what?" In fact, for many years I would not even call myself a "Christian" because of the common misuse of that label in the erroneous concepts of our dysfunctional civilization which is based upon selfishness.

Judging the spiritual state of others may be "religious piety" but it is contrary to the son-of-man. This did not come about from Yeshua's example but from the Roman Totalitarian mind-set that established a man-made religiousity in His name. And... there was something before those doctrines and dogmas became prevalent through destroying all other thought memes that were not politically correct.

It is the confusion of religion with genuine spirituality that produces all these religious divisions and ignores Almighty God our Source---Our Father. Not just Yeshua's Father but our Father also. Now are we the sons of God but it does not yet appear what we shall be.... We are overcoming in order to become. Become what? Become "like HIM" in every way. One of the main things we must overcome is false piety and religiousity for it stands in our way worse than depravity and lust. The Prostitutes find the Kingdom of Heaven before the Priests, Clergymen and Professors of Theology. They put on a good show and many are fooled... but not God.

So much of Religious Christianity is the very first to crucify Him as he walks among us. And.... in fact He DOES walk among us because he was a seed that fell into the earth and died to produce MANY MANY MANY MANY seeds that are "like Him." The first of "many brethren." And yes, religiousity still crucifies them on a regular basis.

Spirituality, on the other hand, recognizes Almighty God as the Prime Source of all. And for the sake of peace on earth and goodwill toward men, it behooves us to become familiar with the Creator and have respect for the Great Creation including Mother Earth and all her creatures.

The Holy Spirit is the Great Spirit and all prevailing. It only takes recognition. The Bible can either help you find that.... or.... if read like a New York Times, can equally be a hinderance and source of division upon division upon division--- all pointing the finger with murder in their hearts while feeling piously justified and 'saved." Jesus wept.

I see our Father in each and every one of you and even in the worst satanic heretic and atheistic materialist on this forum. It is a matter of our conscious awareness of who and what we are and of knowing the Creator who made all--- both the dark and the light. We choose and no one can choose for us but when you actually SEE the son-of-man practically, then all else fades away. What you see in religion is division after division. What you see in your heart when you seek with all your mind, heart and soul is the Source of all. You see beyond your limited identity.

So, as for me, I have choosen to set my eye upon the direction where Almighty God is found and that is my journey. Once the heart is opened, it embraces all and peace on earth and goodwill toward men becomes a reality, not a slogan. Peace begins at home not "out there" somewhere. Christ is not "over here" or "over there." or "way over there." or "up there" or "far away in heavenly fairy-land looking down." Christ is in you the hope of glory and is right here and now. Why? Because Christ and the Father are ONE. Christ is just the practical expression of the Almighty Invisible God. God made visible. The Great Mystery demystified. And you are that potential expression when you simply let go and let God.

namaste

[Fawzo]

Thanks Fawzo, that works for me too. Jesus was Jesus because God is God.

I recall the experience of sitting in a Quaker meetings. It is held in silence. Some are praying, some meditating, and some just in silence. The only time a person speaks (and that is usually just once in a meeting) is when they feel the Spirit moves them to do so. Many wonderful things are said and there is an incredible sense of peace felt by everyone. A waiting expectantly on God's intervention into the meeting and into the hearts of those present. It reminds me of the upper room in Acts where Jesus' followers wait expectantly on the Spirit.

We come away feeling as one and touched by the same influence that we believe that spoke to Jesus and his disciples. The remarkable thing is that although the members of the meeting come from many faiths and non-faiths alike, we each have shared the communion with the same Spirit and each persons beliefs seem to matter very little and insignificant. There is just the influence of the Spirit within.

Something I have never experienced eslewhere.

Does the act and interpretation of "tongues" ever occur at some of these meetings Pete?

[RevRainbow]

There was a time when I held certain beliefs pertinent to my faith. In view of all the information over the years which has now debunked or caused some doubt (about) these beliefs, I have come to realize that thinking for one's self can be most dangerous, for when one begins to question that which is held in truth by others, watch out!

I have learned that it is not the prayer that gets the answer, but the faith in that prayer.

It is not the action that I perform, but the faith in that action, that produces results. For example, I see a chair. I know the chair exists and believe that it is supposed to hold me, but it is when I actually sit in that chair whereby my faith is tested.

Look carefully at the New Testament. Was it Jesus who healed or was it the recipient's faith that the healing was made possible through Jesus? Look carefully at the Old Testament. Were not people also healed and blessed by God because of their faith in Him – His revealed Word?

I place my trust in my Heavenly Father, The Almighty God, through His Holy Spirit which guides me. This does not mean that I toss out the Bible, God forbid, for it holds many truths, many lessons which God's Spirit can use to instruct me through the teachings and life of Jesus, my Heavenly Brother. I must keep my spiritual eyes and ears open and use the scripture as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

At a very early age, I began to talk to Jesus, just casual conversation with One with Whom I was familiar through Catholic School and my parents' teachings. I believe that is what got me going on the path, not through the repetitious or pre-designed prayer, but just plain old child-talk with Jesus. Later, when I left the Catholic Church (I could no longer accept all the dogma and doctrine) I wandered aimlessly for years, but never stopped talking to Jesus albeit in spiritual ignorance.

Today, I realize that I was not just talking with Jesus, but God the Father. Jesus was the only tangible concept I had of God all those years, One that I could relate to (no one can comprehend the All in All). I had it all backwards, though. I was asking Jesus to ask His Father things where I should have been going to the Father in Jesus' Name.

God has shown me, through scripture, I am not talking to Jesus, but to Him. Jesus proceeded from the Father and, I believe, is God Incarnate, but even then, Jesus says to pray not to Him but to the Father. The Father gave me Jesus, my older Brother, so that I might understand the Father better.

So I am not just a Christian in name, but a disciple of Jesus, for God has given me Jesus to identify with Him which makes Christ the Way (for me to understand God). Here, now, is the interesting part - how do others relate to God who have not heard of Jesus and/or practice a different religion? This is a rhetorical question, for I perceive we have many different answers.

What I do know, and have experienced, and believe with all my heart, is that regardless of how I personally may be led, God has and does enlighten and guide anyone who seeks after Him, by and through His Holy Spirit. The sacred writings, the Bible, and even the doctrines and dogma - right or wrong - are for teaching and instruction and spiritual growth. It is God in Whom we should trust. We learn through instruction, guidance, questioning, and…mistakes.

Writings are fine and dandy - they teach. Instructors are fine and dandy but it is the Spirit of God that guides. If you trust in God and what you are being taught does not sound right, then your only choice is to commit your decision to God and He shall direct your path. What you need is the faith to believe that God will do that.

Methinks this is what Jesus meant when He mentioned we must leave our mother and father and friends –to let the (spiritually) dead bury their own (spiritually) dead - to follow Him. It is meant in a positive way whereby we must not stay where it is comfortable and familiar if we realize we are now in the wrong place and must travel on if we are to advance spiritually.

There was a time when I believed that only Catholics went to Heaven and I found out I was wrong. Then I believed that only Christians went to Heaven and I was wrong. Now I believe that all who trust -not just believe- in God go to Heaven through Christ Jesus. I would not be surprised to learn that I am wrong again, but it would not shake my faith in God, Himself, for I know even my concepts of Heaven and Hell are distorted.

I am still trying, as many are, to understand the non-understandable. In the end, it will be my firm trust in my God, my Heavenly Father, Whom I have come to know in part because of His Son, the Christ, who was from The Father, full of Grace and Truth and, IMO, God with us, whereby I shall enter into the eternal.

Until that time when all shall be revealed, I will try as much as is within me to walk in the Love of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that love shall be expressed primarily through forgiveness and compassion, for I also believe that the unforgivable sin is the sin of unforgiveness – a hardened heart. And that applies to all of us.

Peace and understanding to all who read.

Edited January 8, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Dan56]

I think the good Samaritan story tells us that one doesn't even have to have knowledge of Christ or ever heard of a Bible to be a child of God.

One's belief about the authorship of a Book plays no part whatsoever in whether one is a Christian or not.

This is what I mean by contradictory. You quote Christ while simultaneously denying the authenticity of the book you quote him from? I don't get it... If the bible is a collection of fraudulent records, then the Samaritan story should be nothing more than a fairytale to you.

It reminds me of the upper room in Acts where Jesus' followers wait expectantly on the Spirit.

We come away feeling as one and touched by the same influence that we believe that spoke to Jesus and his disciples.

Again, as you guys suggest, the book of Acts was written by Apostles who didn't even know Christ. Since you don't believe Acts is the inspired Word of God, how can you assign any credibility that followers of Christ waited or received any Spirit 2000 years ago?

We are overcoming in order to become. Become what? Become "like HIM" in every way.

Assuming 'HIM' is Christ, and you reject the accuracy of the books which tell you about 'HIM', then isn't trying to become 'like Him' based on a fictional man-made character?

I'm not attacking anyone here, just trying to understand why you take the Samaritan parable to heart, seek the same Holy Spirit revealed in Acts, and long to become Christlike while rejecting the Gospels that describe Christ? It just seems like double-talk because you seem to appreciate and learn from the bible while simultaneously claiming its an errant collection of fables concocted by a bunch of confused sheep herders? Why give any weight or credibility to books you don't believe? I suspect your not as unbelieving of the bible as you profess, and since it speaks to you, a bit of faith might exist?

[Dan56]

There was a time when I believed that only Catholics went to Heaven and I found out I was wrong. Then I believed that only Christians went to Heaven and I was wrong. Now I believe that all who trust -not just believe- in God go to Heaven through Christ Jesus. I would not be surprised to learn that I am wrong again, but it would not shake my faith in God, Himself, for I know even my concepts of Heaven and Hell are distorted.

Nice testimony RR... I had a similar experience being Catholic and going to a Catholic grade school, but I also prayed directly to Jesus and bypassed the repetitious prayers I was taught to use.

My only question is related to the paragraph above. If only those who trust in God go to heaven through Christ, how would a non-Christian go to heaven?

[Pete]

Does the act and interpretation of "tongues" ever occur at some of these meetings Pete?

It has not occurred to my knowledge but I would not be surprised should it occure. Each person may see things differently but in the experience it still feels like a unity.

Hi Dan,

A question. Is the story of the good Samaritan profound because it is a true event or that it has meaning? Similarly, does everyone who reads the bible, do it because every word is true of because it has meaning for them? I am not asking for an answer here but just pointing out how different some may see things.

Thanks Nestingwave and Rev Rainbow. I enjoyed the reading.

[Bro. Hex]

Hey Pete, nice work.

Regardless of the labeling, if someone has applied what the Bible teaches to their life and they find it to be solid, helpful, and liberating; and because of this freedom they decide to say that the Bible has been proven in their life and experience to be inspired and inerrant, and they tell other people that based on their experiences the Bible is inspired and inerrant,

is their opinion as valid to you as those who have not had the same experience?

Coolhand, allow me to be so bold as to dare to speak for my fellow Liberal Christians:

I will give you that "Absolutely!" that you were hoping to hear, and I will give it to you "in Spades"!

Many years ago (40+ years, to be more precise), when I was earning my own way through college by working a 2nd shift factory job every summer, I had the good fortune to meet up with a fellow, more or less my own age, by the name of Monny Betts. The two of us were assigned to the same piece of machinery...a two-man job...during the summer after my junior year. We worked side-by-side all summer long. Monny (pronounced like Monte, but without the "t") was a fervent member of the Church of God. I was a Roman Catholic at that time. We took our breaks together, and we also would work "double-time" for an hour at a time, so that we could get so far ahead of our production quota that we could just "sit and talk" for maybe twenty minutes at a time.

I never learned too much about the actual beliefs or rituals of the Church of God beyond the fact that it was a literalist bible-based denomination. But I learned something far more important: I learned that the Church of God was "central" to who and what Monny Betts was...and that I really liked and respected that person.

So "YES", Monny's beliefs and understandings (his religious "opinions") are just as valid for him (as are yours for you) as mine are for me...in my view of reality.

My fellow Liberals Christians and I do not believe that we "have any corner" on the right understanding of God or God's ways. God is "just to big" for any mortal mind to "even come close" to such an understanding.

So, Cool, does my reply adequately answer your question, or am I "missing the mark"?

Edited January 8, 2010 by Hexalpa

[Fawzo]

This is what I mean by contradictory. You quote Christ while simultaneously denying the authenticity of the book you quote him from? I don't get it... If the bible is a collection of fraudulent records, then the Samaritan story should be nothing more than a fairytale to you.

Dan there are moral stories and lessons that are to be learned even in Fairy Tales and Fables. Fairy Tales and Fables can be quite effective in getting a specific message across or teaching moral lessons to others.

The Bible is a tool Dan and it can be used for creative or destructive purposes, depending on ones intent and sophistication. It has been used to heal and maim, praise and slander, free some and enslave others.

I'm not a slave to it's teachings, promises, threats or warnings. I am however a willing servant to an Agape Loving Entity who bears all, endures all and never fails us.

Edited January 8, 2010 by Fawzo

[Fawzo]

Coolhand, allow me to be so bold as to dare to speak for my fellow Liberal Christians:

I will give you that "Absolutely!" that you were hoping to hear, and I will give it to you "in Spades"!

Many years ago (40+ years, to be more precise), when I was earning my own way through college by working a 2nd shift factory job every summer, I had the good fortune to meet up with a fellow, more or less my own age, by the name of Monny Betts. The two of us were assigned to the same piece of machinery...a two-man job...during the summer after my junior year. We worked side-by-side all summer long. Monny (pronounced like Monte, but without the "t") was a fervent member of the Church of God. I was a Roman Catholic at that time. We took our breaks together, and we also would work "double-time" for an hour at a time, so that we could get so far ahead of our production quota that we could just "sit and talk" for maybe twenty minutes at a time.

I never learned too much about the actual beliefs or rituals of the Church of God beyond the fact that it was a literalist bible-based denomination. But I learned something far more important: I learned that the Church of God was "central" to who and what Monny Betts was...and that I really liked and respected that person.

So "YES", Monny's beliefs and understandings (his religious "opinions") are just as valid for him (as are yours for you) as mine are for me...in my view of reality.

My fellow Liberals Christians and I do not believe that we "have any corner" on the right understanding of God or God's ways. God is "just to big" for any mortal mind to "even come close" to such an understanding.

So, Cool, does my reply adequately answer your question, or am I "missing the mark"?

One summer I was walking past the school yard where I played basketball and some Fundalmentalist Preacher was proselytizing with a mic and loudspeaker system setup. My ego thought it would be fun to walk up to him and have some fun in respect to the contradictions in the Bible. I started heading towards the makeshift stage when I noticed out of the crowd one of the heroin junkies from the neighborhood who was in very bad shape approached the stage in tears and gave his life to Christ and accepted Jesus.

I then realized that the Salvation message was probably one of few this poor guy could accept due to his upbringing in our society. No matter how I feel about the Bible this guy was heading in the right direction. A step up from where he was.

I think we all are currently worshipping the Divine from a perspective we resonate with at the present moment. No two people are the same. More importantly we should never codemn and demonize others who don't resonate with life and the Divine the same way we do.

[RevRainbow]

Nice testimony RR... I had a similar experience being Catholic and going to a Catholic grade school, but I also prayed directly to Jesus and bypassed the repetitious prayers I was taught to use.

My only question is related to the paragraph above. If only those who trust in God go to heaven through Christ, how would a non-Christian go to heaven?

IMO, the same way...through Christ. I am not saying I am right on with this concept, Dan, nor understand it completely as to the awesome power available through the Blood of Christ but, if Christ died for all, and somewhere, someplace, a soul was seeking God, "is the Lord's arm so shortened that it cannot save?" I believe that redemption through Christ can be imparted by God as He so wills. God knows the heart and, if for whatever reason, a person has not known or understood Christ and yet displays the "fruits" of good works - not that the good works in themselves save - and has a loving, compassionate and forgiving spirit, do you not think that he too shall be loved, and that God would have compassion and thus forgive him through the power of the risen Christ? "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth thus also shall he reap."

One last thing, "He (anyone) who calls upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved." How many NAMES does God have, Dan? Would saying, "God save me!" be sufficient to enact this verse of scripture? Jesus doesn't save, God saves because of Jesus. Jesus is the love of God in human form and God showed us how much He loves us by sending Christ (John 3:16-21) so that the world could be saved (by God) through Christ. I will not confine God's saving Grace and the redemptive powers of the death and resurrection of Christ to my limited understanding for, "with God all things are possible."

Edited January 8, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

I will not confine God's saving Grace and the redemptive powers of the death and resurrection of Christ to my limited understanding for, "with God all things are possible."

I also believe all things are possible for God as well, and if it is God's will that none should perish. Who or what could possibly deny that.

I hear a cacophony of voices shouting "but a person has free will" yea yea yea and what effect does this "free will" have on growing old and dying? NONE! A persons free will can not break through the barriers and parameters God has set in any system. It's God's system and His game, He created, for His enjoyment, so His will that none should Perish is all but a done deal IMHO.

[Pete]

I believe that the Christianity that the disciples held was varied and this variation spread. It was not until Rome came along and said that they knew the only thing to believe that Christianity became much more narrow (IMO).

A person who believes the bible is in my perception as much a Christian as one who doubts its contents but learns from its lessons. The reason why we have so much conflict is not generally over whether someone is a Christian but over the lessons they feel they have learned. Hence, we have problems agreeing on topics like gay relations. Yet, this conflict is in my view a healthy thing. Progress does get made (even if it is slow at times). If the bible was followed as it is written and women still had to remain silent and listen only to men then we would be at a loss of some very profoundly women ministers. Few conservative preachers today would say that women may only preach to women only.

Much progress that has been made over the years has been made by someone who says "hey, I do not see it that way". The trouble has been many were killed and then called martyrs later.

Although I feel conservative and liberal Christians are often polarised in debate, I also feel they often need each other to make progress and further learning. The issue I feel that is important is how to make progress and learn from each other without making more martyrs and to show that love that is supposed to be central to Jesus' message. Can we see from a more inclusive perspective, that does not say they are not like us and therefore they should be ignored and can we grow together and value each other without always agreeing?

A difficult question that I struggle with at times, but one that I feel needs asking.

Some liberal sites :- http://jmm.aaa.net.au/articles/13746.htm

http://www.suite101.com/course.cfm/18861/overview/34858

[RevRainbow]

We fail to understand the depths of it all, Fawzo. Adam was the first man and (I speak in human terms) failed God's test. Jesus was the second Adam (we are told in scripture) and He passed the test. Thus, mankind was redeemed and for all intent purposes, mankind, through Christ's victory, has been restored to the same relationship/fellowship man (Adam) had in the garden with God in the beginning. In God's eyes, we are as we should have been before the Fall.

Those who believed God prior to Christ could not yet enter into heaven but remained in the "good" side of Sheol until Christ descended into "hell" and released them. Now, that part is empty, because of Christ, whereby when we die, we are immediately present with the Lord.

For now, we must work out our salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit given us and God says, if we trust Him, we shall not fail. The magnitude of all this is beyond our feeble means to add or subtract. Surely, IMO, if we understand the purpose of Christ, and rest in the assurance of God's promises, we shall have a better hold on things than one who does not know or understand. This however, is a personal matter between each person and God. We have enough to do in our own personal spiritual walk. which is helping others; not judging or condemning them.

[nestingwave]

There was a time when I held certain beliefs pertinent to my faith. In view of all the information over the years which has now debunked or caused some doubt (about) these beliefs, I have come to realize that thinking for one's self can be most dangerous, for when one begins to question that which is held in truth by others, watch out!

Hi Rainbow, okay, I have to divide this in two parts. So this is Part 1. heheheh.

This post of yours is so excellent that I gave it a whole lot of contemplation. It is really uplifting to say the least.

I once saw a double Rainbow over the Painted Desert in Arizona. Quite unique I am told. As usual your frequency of colors embraces the whole spectrum and I really appreciate that. Christ embraces the whole spectrum also and never dogmatically stays in the red nor in the blue screaming "damnation" to the other colors which are equally necessary for the whole spectrum. The fact that your "beliefs" were challenged is extremely positive. Mine were/are too. It helped you to see that whatever color you were choosing was only one of many and that the richness of that favorite color depended upon the contrast of all the other colors.

Somewhere a unity and synthesis becomes quite obvious.

At one point in my seeking I embraced the compassionate Buddha only to later find out that indeed Buddhism was one of the great influences on the earliest Christians through the many Buddhist missionaries in the land of Palestine at the time--a fact not reported by the early Church "fathers." They had Roman politics to consider in formulating their doctrines and dogmas by attempting to annhilate all other ideas. They wanted a "State" religion of enforced "unity" and used the Roman Empire Military methods to achieve it because they looked upon Rome as the seed of the Kingdom of God manifest upon the earth--according to their own writings. They envisoned the Kingdom of God as a kind of controlling power over the bodies, minds and souls of men rather than the truth that sets men free, as Yeshua did. Slavery is what Romanism and the later Protestantism is about, although many of both persuasions prefer the freedom embodied in the Christ and usually feel "at odds" with the status quo. The "protest" didn't mind the religious control paradigm because it secured political power and the concept of the "state religion" prevailed, even though there were those who attempted to break away. They eventually wound up doing the same old same old because they couldn't conceive of how to behave otherwise.

But, over time I have learned to forgive those early and later church "fathers" because all their efforts to suppress other ideas about the truth only strengthened those ideas in the long run. Truth persists regardless and opposition to it only strengthens it. So, thank God for such opposition. Without a "devil" no vision and determination for truth can arise because there is no contrast.

A precious jewel can only shine at its fullest on black velvet.

In the world, the wheat and the tares exist side by side until the "judgement" when all is exposed for what it really was all along. No more masks. So, in this present world we have the devil/saint polarity existing side by side.... devils and saints desperately need one another in order for their choices to be solidified and manifested. So, thank you devil... but no thanks. We can say, "I prefer peace over war and joy over suffering because I have seen and experienced the fruit of both."

Yes, our own thoughts about anything are highly limited and so it is best to consider the views of others. However, ultimately we have to decide. We can't say "they made me do it." But, we must assume personal responsibility. So, to make an informed decision it is best to let our seeking hearts... branch out, so to speak. By "branch out" I mean go beyond local prejudices and biases, whatever they may be. Some disdain being "ecclectic," others, such as myself, embrace it and find a very rich unity in viewing the world through Rainbow colored glasses.

I have learned that it is not the prayer that gets the answer, but the faith in that prayer.

It is not the action that I perform, but the faith in that action, that produces results. For example, I see a chair. I know the chair exists and believe that it is supposed to hold me, but it is when I actually sit in that chair whereby my faith is tested.

And... if the chair collapses it is not that the idea of a "chair" was wrong but that it was poorly constructed or worn out.

Look carefully at the New Testament. Was it Jesus who healed or was it the recipient's faith that the healing was made possible through Jesus? Look carefully at the Old Testament. Were not people also healed and blessed by God because of their faith in Him – His revealed Word?

Of course, Jesus had a "hand" in it too because the very presence of Jesus (and other healers) inspire the faith of individuals whose own inner faith then aligns with the Universal Compassion flowing out like living water from the healers. Those who are healed may have not even had any faith at all until faith suddenly stood before them in human form causing them to let go and let God. One can "feel" the deep compassion but not explain it because it is well beyond explanation.

Such healers are reminders that Almighty God only wants the best for all beings and when the resistance of the unnecessary baggage is removed, healing is there with no effort. So, the presence of the healer is important to prove the power of compassion and God's intention to bring joy to all creatures.

"You shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover." A fact already well proven to me time and time again.

But genuine healers always say, "go and tell no one" because they aren't interested in becoming popular icons but in seeing people find their own faith. "Thy faith hath made thee whole." In other words, I didn't "do" it.... YOU did. "I only reminded you of the healing Source within you. I did not zap you with some kind of magical supernatural power." And, many times, even a fake healer only trying to bilk money causes a persons inner faith in Almighty God to trigger and healing occurs. This is often how the fake healers justify themselves even while counting their cash and ridiculing the dupes who gave him their life savings. Sometimes a placebo (a sugar pill) will heal the patient because the patient believes in the medicine.

The energy for the healing comes from our own changed psycho-physiological state in which we let go of all hinderances in order to receive that which we already have, but seldom interface with because we tend to get in our own way. We become entangled with our "what about this? --what about that?" rabbit trailing mind of distraction and that is sure to diffuses healing energy.

There is more to "mind" than what we can cognitively frame. Our individual minds are totally interconnected with The Universal Mind. All we need to do is recognize it. The Universal Mind of God has the basic intention to uplift and bless all life without exception. Healing of body, mind and soul is natural, when faith is present to allow one to let go and let be. That's why healing is not confined to folks of any given religious persuasion. Such bias is entirely a preoccupation of the cognitive mind. And our cognitive "minds" are quite restricted.

Buddhist call it our "wild" mind. And to clear up something which is often usually obscured, Buddhist don't seek to "annhilate" the mind, as many falsely assume, but only to stop the mind temporarily in order to receive that which is beyond all thought. That makes cognitive thought much clearer and exact. Temporarily halting the thinking process means ones gains control over their own thoughts, for as a man thinks in his heart, so is he. There is a great power within which comes from the Source of All---Almighty God. That is... our Life/Spirit energy and power which already lies at the root of all life without exception. With our conscious contact with the Universal Intelligent Energy Field (God), our wonderful individual bodies and minds are perfectly capable of self-healing and already know precisely how to accomplish it in the inner wisdom of our trillions of bodily cells and neurons. You don't have to "think" in order for your heart to beat either. Nor to breathe.

I place my trust in my Heavenly Father, The Almighty God, through His Holy Spirit which guides me. This does not mean that I toss out the Bible, God forbid, for it holds many truths, many lessons which God's Spirit can use to instruct me through the teachings and life of Jesus, my Heavenly Brother. I must keep my spiritual eyes and ears open and use the scripture as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path.

And this, of course, is a great statement of faith. It is your inner evidence beyond question and just stating it reaffirms it and strengthens it. Someone who read through the Bible might "toss it." I felt like that at times. But when I did, I dived deeper into it and found many different layers and riches not found in Popular Mechanics nor Reader's Digest nor the common theological interpretations arrived at through linear thinking in only one dimension.

....more.....

Part 2... Okay, I have to divide this one too. GURK.

At a very early age, I began to talk to Jesus, just casual conversation with One with Whom I was familiar through Catholic School and my parents' teachings.

And a little child shall lead them. So, regardless of doctrines and dogmas, right or wrong, this shows the fundamental value preserved amidst any and all subtrafuge. Hey, without the subtrafuge you might take it for granted and quit seeking.

I believe that is what got me going on the path, not through the repetitious or pre-designed prayer, but just plain old child-talk with Jesus. Later, when I left the Catholic Church (I could no longer accept all the dogma and doctrine) I wandered aimlessly for years, but never stopped talking to Jesus albeit in spiritual ignorance.

Yep. The inner truth swallows all that is extraneous and/or erroneous.

Today, I realize that I was not just talking with Jesus, but God the Father. Jesus was the only tangible concept I had of God all those years, One that I could relate to (no one can comprehend the All in All). I had it all backwards, though. I was asking Jesus to ask His Father things where I should have been going to the Father in Jesus' Name.

But... it didn't matter. And I have come to understand that the "name" alone connects you with all the vast reservoir of thought and emotion throughout all time that has ever been connected with that "name."

"He who calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."

Just 'calling" tunes into the broadcast where you can received the entire gospel in all the necessary detail. The Buddhists understand this also. For example, when they say Om Mani Padme Hum they are accessing the entire Dharma of the compassionate Buddha written down in thousands of volumes.

Names are like a signature of the whole person. If you call "Hey Bob!" I will come immediately and say, "how may I serve you?" So, all those who 'call" get what they call upon. Better to call upon the Father of all lights than upon "Bob" who is highly limited. Our Father does not turn a deaf ear to those who call.

"And men began to call upon the name of the Lord" means more that just saying a certain name. "Calling upon" means to desire the person and all the person stands for. "Calling upon" acknowledges 1) that the person exists and 2) you need the assistance of their living wisdom. So, calling upon the Lord is an act of humility. I am not sufficient in my very limited restriction and, for the sake of my life itself, need additional wisdom and healing from beyond what my cognitive thought will allow. I need something beyond this highly limited world of my perceptions and prejudices. Calling upon the Lord is recognizing and admitting ones extreme limitation and lack of conscious awareness. That is humility over arrogance.

God has shown me, through scripture, I am not talking to Jesus, but to Him. Jesus proceeded from the Father and, I believe, is God Incarnate, but even then, Jesus says to pray not to Him but to the Father. The Father gave me Jesus, my older Brother, so that I might understand the Father better.

Since the son-of-man and the Father are ONE in every way, to call upon one is to call upon the other. And therein lies the value of scripture even when it is sometimes distorted by man-made doctrines and dogmas.

So I am not just a Christian in name, but a disciple of Jesus, for God has given me Jesus to identify with Him which makes Christ the Way (for me to understand God). Here, now, is the interesting part - how do others relate to God who have not heard of Jesus and/or practice a different religion? This is a rhetorical question, for I perceive we have many different answers.

And that's why you are Rainbow and recognize the entire spectrum.

What I do know, and have experienced, and believe with all my heart, is that regardless of how I personally may be led, God has and does enlighten and guide anyone who seeks after Him, by and through His Holy Spirit.

Finding comes through seeking and once God is "found" that is only the beginning not the time to stop seeking. Why? Because Almighty God is Intelligent Infinity and there is no final "find" only a beginning "find" on an infinite journey. That first "find" is nothing more than a direction to continue seeking. Seeking with all your heart, mind and soul is not a casual seeking but requires a full and continuous focus lest one becomes petrified and stunted in spiritual growth. And that, of course, leads to judgements and dogmatism. And... unforgiveness. We have all experienced this at some time or another.

The sacred writings, the Bible, and even the doctrines and dogmas - right or wrong - are for teaching and instruction and spiritual growth. It is God in Whom we should trust. We learn through instruction, guidance, questioning, and…mistakes.

Bravo!

.... more.....

Part 3

Writings are fine and dandy - they teach. Instructors are fine and dandy but it is the Spirit of God that guides.

The letters by themselves kill ----but the Spirit gives eternal life. However, the letters can interface with the Spirit interdimensionally. Not Vogue Magazine here but interdimensional, holonomic interface which recognizes the synchronic interconnectivity of all things and completely changes ones lifestyle and even their method of thinking.

If you trust in God and what you are being taught does not sound right, then your only choice is to commit your decision to God and He shall direct your path. What you need is the faith to believe that God will do that.

Excellent and very inspiring. To exercise intuition is necessary for growth in Life, Love and Light. Intuition goes way beyond cognitive thought. Just ask your mother, who fully understands when you must leave her to seek more.

Methinks this is what Jesus meant when He mentioned we must leave our mother and father and friends –to let the (spiritually) dead bury their own (spiritually) dead - to follow Him. It is meant in a positive way whereby we must not stay where it is comfortable and familiar if we realize we are now in the wrong place and must travel on if we are to advance spiritually.

Yes. And that takes much much courage. The valor of the heart is one of its deep attributes only brought out when appreciation, compassion, forgiveness, humility and understanding arise also.

There was a time when I believed that only Catholics went to Heaven and I found out I was wrong.

Christ is anything but exclusive regardless of the vast false advertising otherwise--which is by no means confined to Catholicism nor to Christians.

Then I believed that only Christians went to Heaven and I was wrong. Now I believe that all who trust -not just believe- in God go to Heaven through Christ Jesus. I would not be surprised to learn that I am wrong again, but it would not shake my faith in God, Himself, for I know even my concepts of Heaven and Hell are distorted.

hmmm..... probably less distorted than before?

I am still trying, as many are, to understand the non-understandable.

The heart understands even when the cognitive mind does not. It is beyond words... and... beyond cognitive thought itself.

In the end, it will be my firm trust in my God, my Heavenly Father, Whom I have come to know in part because of His Son, the Christ, who was from The Father, full of Grace and Truth and, IMO, God with us, whereby I shall enter into the eternal.

"Now... we know... in part but then... we shall know... even as also we are known." That is a Bioblical explanation of consciousness expansion. That is finding out who and what you are.

Until that time when all shall be revealed, I will try as much as is within me to walk in the Love of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that love shall be expressed primarily through forgiveness and compassion, for I also believe that the unforgivable sin is the sin of unforgiveness – a hardened heart. And that applies to all of us.

Father, become in us a fountain of forgiveness which we apply to ourselves and to all other beings.

As you forgive, so shall you be forgiven. No matter what doctrine you may believe, if unforgiveness remains in your heart, you have retained your own sins. Why? Because clutching and retaining the sins of others is an act of clutching and retaining your own sins. That is because you are not seperate but of One Source. Almighty God. The world you experience through your mind and senses is YOU. All of it. And it is you and no one else that determines what your interpretation of that world is. Therein is the creativity that makes you a co-creator. The creative principle that we are all gradually discovering. So, by retaining unforgiveness you create unforgiveness for yourself. Let go and let God. His/Her/It's ways are infinitely more wise than your highly limited perspective and narrow biases as a human being who is overcoming and becoming One with Christ as Christ is One with our Father. That we may all be One in our conscious awareness and inner understanding. The fruit of that is peace on earth and goodwill toward men.

So wonderful and excellent Rainbow. Your post says it all. And... thank you for such a clear cognitive explanation of that which is well beyond the cognitive mind and thus a stumbling block to anyone stuck in that linear mental realm.

Peace and understanding to all who read.

Well.... in my case... even though my understanding is highly limited, I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that God answered your prayer and my heart affirms it and says a great big, "YES!".

namaste

[RevRainbow]

Thank you, brother Nesty for your kind comments. Not only comments but your considering what you read and then responding in detail. You have understood my thinking very well and your comments are right on in defining the aforementioned in a slightly different manner. And, just so folks don't think we got some mutual admiration society going, I would have thanked you had you responded differently in the same detail. To me, it means, either way, one has read and considered what was presented. Thank you and I thank Pete for starting this most interesting thread.

[Coolhand]

Coolhand, allow me to be so bold as to dare to speak for my fellow Liberal Christians:

I will give you that "Absolutely!" that you were hoping to hear, and I will give it to you "in Spades"!

Many years ago (40+ years, to be more precise), when I was earning my own way through college by working a 2nd shift factory job every summer, I had the good fortune to meet up with a fellow, more or less my own age, by the name of Monny Betts. The two of us were assigned to the same piece of machinery...a two-man job...during the summer after my junior year. We worked side-by-side all summer long. Monny (pronounced like Monte, but without the "t") was a fervent member of the Church of God. I was a Roman Catholic at that time. We took our breaks together, and we also would work "double-time" for an hour at a time, so that we could get so far ahead of our production quota that we could just "sit and talk" for maybe twenty minutes at a time.

I never learned too much about the actual beliefs or rituals of the Church of God beyond the fact that it was a literalist bible-based denomination. But I learned something far more important: I learned that the Church of God was "central" to who and what Monny Betts was...and that I really liked and respected that person.

So "YES", Monny's beliefs and understandings (his religious "opinions") are just as valid for him (as are yours for you) as mine are for me...in my view of reality.

My fellow Liberals Christians and I do not believe that we "have any corner" on the right understanding of God or God's ways. God is "just to big" for any mortal mind to "even come close" to such an understanding.

So, Cool, does my reply adequately answer your question, or am I "missing the mark"?

You are awesome!

I kinda "knew" that there was a common ground that existed, and that whatever side person is 'placed' in this discussion is one of thoses things that just does not really matter. We all talk about love, and Jesus said that His followers would be known by thier love for one another. I know there are things wrong with my theology, nobody has it 100% right. If one of was 100% would the rest of us agree with that person? Jesus never said we would know his followers by thier defence of innerancy, or thier systematized theology, or impeccable philosophy.

I think you hit the 'bull's eye' brother!

Finding what we can unite under and enjoying each other's fellowship is what I think Jesus had in mind.

[Coolhand]

No one needs to have their faith "validated." Such divisions are just the opposite of Yeshua's teaching from what I glean from the Bible and not only that but what my own life experience tells me. Those who judge others as not having "faith" are looking into a mirror and doubting their own faith. Faith is evidence to you and is personal. It is between you and the Creator of all that is. Let no man judge you.

The meddling and judging of other people or trying to validate others as "saved," "unsaved" "damned" "liberal" "conservative" is all absolute nonsense, in my view. Faith is not political in any way and does not conform to the world system of error--both political and religious. And.... it is just this type of silliness that spills the blood of history. As long as folks point their finger in arrogance, brutal insane war will exist and be perpetrated because that is the wave-length, the frequency of brutal conflict-- no matter how benign and pious it may appear on the surface.

And, I could care less if someone calls me a "Christian" or not. I have had plenty of fingers pointed at me including much tongue wagging and I say, "So what?" In fact, for many years I would not even call myself a "Christian" because of the common misuse of that label in the erroneous concepts of our dysfunctional civilization which is based upon selfishness.

Judging the spiritual state of others may be "religious piety" but it is contrary to the son-of-man. This did not come about from Yeshua's example but from the Roman Totalitarian mind-set that established a man-made religiousity in His name. And... there was something before those doctrines and dogmas became prevalent through destroying all other thought memes that were not politically correct.

It is the confusion of religion with genuine spirituality that produces all these religious divisions and ignores Almighty God our Source---Our Father. Not just Yeshua's Father but our Father also. Now are we the sons of God but it does not yet appear what we shall be.... We are overcoming in order to become. Become what? Become "like HIM" in every way. One of the main things we must overcome is false piety and religiousity for it stands in our way worse than depravity and lust. The Prostitutes find the Kingdom of Heaven before the Priests, Clergymen and Professors of Theology. They put on a good show and many are fooled... but not God.

So much of Religious Christianity is the very first to crucify Him as he walks among us. And.... in fact He DOES walk among us because he was a seed that fell into the earth and died to produce MANY MANY MANY MANY seeds that are "like Him." The first of "many brethren." And yes, religiousity still crucifies them on a regular basis.

Spirituality, on the other hand, recognizes Almighty God as the Prime Source of all. And for the sake of peace on earth and goodwill toward men, it behooves us to become familiar with the Creator and have respect for the Great Creation including Mother Earth and all her creatures.

The Holy Spirit is the Great Spirit and all prevailing. It only takes recognition. The Bible can either help you find that.... or.... if read like a New York Times, can equally be a hinderance and source of division upon division upon division--- all pointing the finger with murder in their hearts while feeling piously justified and 'saved." Jesus wept.

I see our Father in each and every one of you and even in the worst satanic heretic and atheistic materialist on this forum. It is a matter of our conscious awareness of who and what we are and of knowing the Creator who made all--- both the dark and the light. We choose and no one can choose for us but when you actually SEE the son-of-man practically, then all else fades away. What you see in religion is division after division. What you see in your heart when you seek with all your mind, heart and soul is the Source of all. You see beyond your limited identity.

So, as for me, I have choosen to set my eye upon the direction where Almighty God is found and that is my journey. Once the heart is opened, it embraces all and peace on earth and goodwill toward men becomes a reality, not a slogan. Peace begins at home not "out there" somewhere. Christ is not "over here" or "over there." or "way over there." or "up there" or "far away in heavenly fairy-land looking down." Christ is in you the hope of glory and is right here and now. Why? Because Christ and the Father are ONE. Christ is just the practical expression of the Almighty Invisible God. God made visible. The Great Mystery demystified. And you are that potential expression when you simply let go and let God.

namaste

Nice post brother!

I agree that validation from others is not important, that is just my awkward and clumsy choice of words as I was trying to find a sense of commoness and fellowship with others.

[Dan56]

Hi Dan,

A question. Is the story of the good Samaritan profound because it is a true event or that it has meaning? Because it has meaning. Similarly, does everyone who reads the bible, do it because every word is true or because it has meaning for them? I am not asking for an answer here but just pointing out how different some may see things.

I understand what your saying. I happen to read the bible because I believe its true and I want to know the meaning. If I didn't think it was true, I wouldn't read it, nor would I care what it said. I suppose others read it for the meaning, with hopes of finding some truths. So I guess we are all motivated in seeking answers, but go about it in different ways. I just need to believe that what I'm reading is true, otherwise I lose interest.