RevRainbow

"Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also. It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices. You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually." I am not saying that other faiths or religions have more or less value. I am referencing those who call themselves Christian and, for some reason, what they once held as holy have turned and now attack the bible -not just portions- but all as uninspired. This could also be true of any religion whose disciple ultimately rejects the sacred writings. The point is, rather than just dismissing and, as you say, embrace another faith, the individuals continue to trash the scriptures while setting themselves up as a spiritual teacher/authority within the realm of Christianity. I was generalizing about a specific situation in the paragraph you quoted which was preceded and followed by what I feel puts it into a different context than what you understood it to be. The most extreme cases I can think of similar to what I was describing would be Jim Jones and David Korash.

Amen. May God provide comfort and blessing in this terrible situation.

Sorry for the double quote above. I have no idea how that happened! This is one of the dangers of spiritual blindness. Now Fawzo, do not be upset with me, for I mean all of us who do not regard the bible as inerrant (and those who do). There is a difference we should see between those who regard the bible as a means of communication from God and those who seek to disprove that premise. To me, the Bible may not be inerrant, but it certainly is sanctified. Sanctification means to be set aside, ordained, for a specific use and in this case, use by God's Spirit in communicating to us through the Scriptures. Many who have been "turned off" by various preachers, teachers and churches, have begun a crusade against the God of the Bible by trashing the scriptures. It is not fair to blame God or those who diligently seek Him through the Bible. Just as there are dangers in elevating the Bible to the ultimate truth, there are the dangers of disregarding it also. It is but a small step when one seeks alleged discrepancies, to contemptuously seek out more until everything seems to be in error, thus we can dispose of the Bible and institute our own set of beliefs as we desire, with no other foundation than ego, for then nothing is sacred other than what we hold as truth of our own devices. You say the Bible is a mess. No, it is not. It is the Word of God, but many have made a mess out of it. Before I go further, I accept that what you say above and what I say are our opinions only, it is our pride that presents our statements as fact. These may be considered our beliefs, but our beliefs are based on what very little we actually know spiritually. I do not see a contradiction in these two portions of the bible. In one instance, Paul is talking to believers in Christ and explains that the evidence of the existance of God is all around so that men are without excuse in their DENYING the existence of God. In Acts, Paul is talking to people who acknowledge the existence of gods, to the degree that they even covered their butts by erecting a statue to one they may have overlooked. Paul used this scenario as an opening to verify their belief in an unknown God and enlighten their ignorance (which God winked at) about that God. The Bible is confusing to those who read it in the flesh, rather than in the spirit. And, if we are looking for contradictions, we shall find them only because God rewards those who diligently seek Him and not those who have contempt for the manner in which His Spirit communicates to others. I have said it before and I say it again, the thing that saddens me here at ULC is the contempt expressed by some in this forum for the Bible, yet they do not show the same contempt for other so-called sacred writings of other religions. I believe this is so because of the fundamentalist aspect of being "absolutely correct" as to holding the Truth, and all others wrong and headed for hell, based on their holding the Bible (and their understanding of it) as inerrant. This does not make the Bible itself the culprit nor, as I stated, the God of that Bible.

Dan, do you think this would hold true for today, for those of other beliefs and/or religions who allegedly sin in ignorance?

A note of caution here. Referring to what is in bold above, Christian faith should NOT be based on the bible alone and, as a matter of fact, should not be based primarily on the bible, but rather faith in God and, more specifically, faith in the works of Christ Jesus. The Bible reveals Christ and the Father to us but was intended, just as the Law was, as a teacher, a guide and NEVER as a foundation. "No other foundation can no man lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ." - 1Corinthians 3:11 Our walk with God is a personal walk and it is good that we come together and worship at times and sing praises and pray. But it is a walk with YOU and God. And who is to say where God shall lead you? "Peter seeing him said to Jesus, 'Lord, what shall this man do?' Jesus answered, "...what is that to thee? Follow thou me." - John 21:21-22 I find the Bible as a source of spiritual education, comfort and guidance but it will never replace the trust and access that I have with my Father in Heaven through my older Brother, Jesus. For me, the world is my classroom, the Bible is my textbook, Jesus is my teacher and the Holy Spirit is my guidance counselor.

Some folks have a problem with the apostle Paul, but in his writing, I think there is one inspired part that we sometimes miss, or maybe just have not considered to any great length. Pete, methinks God made it very clear about salvation. You see, He saved us, we don't save ourselves. The good news is that we are redeemed by the death and resurrection of Christ. When I say we I mean all. Read 1st Corinthians chapter 15, verses 12 through 28. Notice how many times Paul says the word "all." Not just some, not just the Corinthians, but ALL. This is the most exciting verse: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be made alive." -vs22 I have heard the allegation here that it is unfair for God to condemn everyone (all) because Adam sinned. Yet, I hear no argument that through Chist ALL shall be made alive (born again, if you will). Read the verses and see if I am incorrect as to God's will that "ALL men be saved...AND come to a knowledge of the Truth." Does this mean that we are redeemed before we understand the truth about Christ, God, spirituality? Herein is love, not that we loved God but that He first loved us...For God so loved the world that He gave...Salvation is a gift. God has redeemed Mankind through Christ. Period. Rejoice in it.

A good point, Cool. The Spirit of God is at work in the world convicting hearts of the existence of the Almighty, so we are without excuse. I agree with your entire statement which I quoted above.

No, what I meant was you should not just accept an answer you were expecting but also consider those answers that differ rather than rejecting them. I personally do not believe in praying for the dead. That does not make me right and, if I am wrong, then there are a lot of dead people who will be angry with me. Praying for the dead is a Catholic (for one example) belief within Christianity. I was brought up to pray for the "poor souls" in Purgatory and even offer my afflictions as a sacrifice for them to help shorten their stay. Most Catholics that I knew/know, do not consider themselves evil enough for hell, but will spend "some time" in Purgatory and believe if they have prayer from the living, they can obtain an "early release." This concept is no longer believable to me. So, IMO only, if the caregiver prayed for Ken ONLY after he died, I don't believe it helped. I was under the impression that the caregiver had been praying for Ken also while he was alive, I apologize for not entirely understanding the scenario. I feel sorry for Ken if, during his whole life, there was not someone praying for him or expressing the love of God to him and, also that he did not seek God in his own heart. God is not unfair. I leave it at that for now. PS: I do admit to asking God, after someone I knew well and had prayed for, had passed away, to have mercy on them, yes, even though I say I do not believe in prayer for the dead, but I do not offer continual prayer for them.

I dunno, Pete, it seems like you only accept an answer that you are looking for..and that, of course would be from a conservative who responds as you think a conservative should respond (and I am not saying Dan is wrong - as a matter of fact he is as correct as Cool and myself). If your "fictional" Ken had an unforgiving heart, hated his parents and society, then his heart was hardened and, IMO, he will be judged accordingly. To give him the benefit of the doubt, I suggested the prayers of the faithful DO have an effect on the hearts of others (by God, through Christ). That is not a liberal view, but one based on scripture.

Well, there is a verse in the NT where one of the Philippian guards asked, "What must I do to be saved?" and Paul and Silas answered, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved AND your house." Now that didnt mean the guard's domicile but rather his household, all that were under his care (wife, kids, servants). How that is possible is not made known, or whether it is all at the same time or one by one, but it is a verse which can be claimed by a beleiver. So, IMO, if that caregiver prayed, it is possible Ken was thus sanctified by her faith. Paul also points out in the epistles that a beleiving husband sanctifies his wife and vice-versa.

I can understand your position somewhat, Pete, and I would like to comment. I do not think it is correct to equate liberalism with loving kindness and conservatism with being judgmental or condemning. You are understanding the principle of requiring mercy rather than sacrifice, as God desires, which I gather from two points of the story. The first point is that the caregiver prayed for God's mercy. IMO, an unselfish prayer from a "righteous" personal avails much. Second, you point out it is unknown what Ken believed and "not Likely" that he called upon God. Well, it is just possible that he did call on God because of those prayers. We cannot judge Ken because only God knew his heart. How many times, perhaps, in the darkness, did Ken call out in tears, perhaps even cursing God, wanting to be "saved" from this lifestyle? We just dont know. Your unspoken suggestion is that conservatives would label Ken a lost cause, and that would not be totally accurate. There is always the interjection of the word "some." Some may, some may not. Both cases are judgmental for the answer should be, "I don't know." All else is opinion. My encouragement to you is not to box yourself in with labels such as liberalism. I am a fundamentalist, by label, and yet, strangely enough, not in the same manner as those who also claim that title. Do you see what I mean? YOU may call me a liberal, but I do not see myself as such. Is it possible for one to be a liberal fundamentalist? Should we judge by words or actions, or perhaps, neither? Our meaning of the words is in our definition. You do not have to label yourself anything in order to express love, mercy and forgiveness, other than a child of the Almighty God. Remember, in Christ, there is no Greek or Roman, no male or female and, I might add, no conservative or liberal. We are one in the Lord. Being one in the Spirit should be our position. Peace.

Tell him it's a sin and he'll go to hell? What if it's a fellow Christian who has been going to your church as long as you remember? Hyperventilate?

So it seems the Bible isnt the only sacred texts claimed to be tampered with? Ah me, "what is truth?" -Pontius Pilate (allegedly)

Methinks intervening and trying to hasten or delay a prophecy is very dangerous ground indeed especially when there are a multitude of interpretations. We are supposed to watch for the signs of the times, not provoke them. Gee, Fawzo, I thought you knew me better than that.

Thanks for sharing your story, Pete. methinks that those of us who grew up in the 50's. rebelled in the 60's and tried to settle down in the 70's (with very poor taste in clothing styles, btw) somehow knew we were searching for something we knew existed beyond the conformity and dogmas of religion. We had a certain sense of peace about religion and God but deep down knew that there was something contradictory about a merciful, loving God who also cast souls into a burning hell for eternity. A loving Creator would not be constantly judging His creations as inferior, tossing them off into the everlasting furnace. We dont have the answers, only a little better view, a clearer picture of the God we know IS and always will be. Nesty, one of the nasties in the Book of Revelation is the move toward one world religion and government established by the antichrist through the Beast. Also within is a glimpse of the Millenium Kingdom which is also a one world "religion" and government ruled by Christ for 1000 years. We must be cautious to be able to spiritually discern between the mark of the Beast which is 666 (imperfection) and the mark of God which is 777 (perfection). Methinks that with the coming New Heaven and New earth that is prophecied, mankind's attempt at One World status will be imperfect as the old order tries to hold on to it's possessions and control. We must realize this and see it as a sign of the Second Coming. We must not accept the number of the Beast (imperfection) to be imprinted on ourselves, being deceived by words and wonders but endure the tribulations to come awaiting the dawn of a New Age, the visible Kingdom of God (777) with Christ in Control.

Thank you, brother Nesty for your kind comments. Not only comments but your considering what you read and then responding in detail. You have understood my thinking very well and your comments are right on in defining the aforementioned in a slightly different manner. And, just so folks don't think we got some mutual admiration society going, I would have thanked you had you responded differently in the same detail. To me, it means, either way, one has read and considered what was presented. Thank you and I thank Pete for starting this most interesting thread.

I had never heard of this book until you presented it, Brother Sky. Thanks for the link (and additional confusion!). I will not comment other than to say I have gone back a few times and read portions from the title page links that have interested me enough to return again. This does not mean that I am persuaded in anything, but it certainly is worthy of additional perusal on my part. Thanks.

We fail to understand the depths of it all, Fawzo. Adam was the first man and (I speak in human terms) failed God's test. Jesus was the second Adam (we are told in scripture) and He passed the test. Thus, mankind was redeemed and for all intent purposes, mankind, through Christ's victory, has been restored to the same relationship/fellowship man (Adam) had in the garden with God in the beginning. In God's eyes, we are as we should have been before the Fall. Those who believed God prior to Christ could not yet enter into heaven but remained in the "good" side of Sheol until Christ descended into "hell" and released them. Now, that part is empty, because of Christ, whereby when we die, we are immediately present with the Lord. For now, we must work out our salvation through the power of the Holy Spirit given us and God says, if we trust Him, we shall not fail. The magnitude of all this is beyond our feeble means to add or subtract. Surely, IMO, if we understand the purpose of Christ, and rest in the assurance of God's promises, we shall have a better hold on things than one who does not know or understand. This however, is a personal matter between each person and God. We have enough to do in our own personal spiritual walk. which is helping others; not judging or condemning them.

IMO, the same way...through Christ. I am not saying I am right on with this concept, Dan, nor understand it completely as to the awesome power available through the Blood of Christ but, if Christ died for all, and somewhere, someplace, a soul was seeking God, "is the Lord's arm so shortened that it cannot save?" I believe that redemption through Christ can be imparted by God as He so wills. God knows the heart and, if for whatever reason, a person has not known or understood Christ and yet displays the "fruits" of good works - not that the good works in themselves save - and has a loving, compassionate and forgiving spirit, do you not think that he too shall be loved, and that God would have compassion and thus forgive him through the power of the risen Christ? "Be not deceived, God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man soweth thus also shall he reap." One last thing, "He (anyone) who calls upon the NAME of the Lord shall be saved." How many NAMES does God have, Dan? Would saying, "God save me!" be sufficient to enact this verse of scripture? Jesus doesn't save, God saves because of Jesus. Jesus is the love of God in human form and God showed us how much He loves us by sending Christ (John 3:16-21) so that the world could be saved (by God) through Christ. I will not confine God's saving Grace and the redemptive powers of the death and resurrection of Christ to my limited understanding for, "with God all things are possible."

There was a time when I held certain beliefs pertinent to my faith. In view of all the information over the years which has now debunked or caused some doubt (about) these beliefs, I have come to realize that thinking for one's self can be most dangerous, for when one begins to question that which is held in truth by others, watch out! I have learned that it is not the prayer that gets the answer, but the faith in that prayer. It is not the action that I perform, but the faith in that action, that produces results. For example, I see a chair. I know the chair exists and believe that it is supposed to hold me, but it is when I actually sit in that chair whereby my faith is tested. Look carefully at the New Testament. Was it Jesus who healed or was it the recipient's faith that the healing was made possible through Jesus? Look carefully at the Old Testament. Were not people also healed and blessed by God because of their faith in Him – His revealed Word? I place my trust in my Heavenly Father, The Almighty God, through His Holy Spirit which guides me. This does not mean that I toss out the Bible, God forbid, for it holds many truths, many lessons which God's Spirit can use to instruct me through the teachings and life of Jesus, my Heavenly Brother. I must keep my spiritual eyes and ears open and use the scripture as a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path. At a very early age, I began to talk to Jesus, just casual conversation with One with Whom I was familiar through Catholic School and my parents' teachings. I believe that is what got me going on the path, not through the repetitious or pre-designed prayer, but just plain old child-talk with Jesus. Later, when I left the Catholic Church (I could no longer accept all the dogma and doctrine) I wandered aimlessly for years, but never stopped talking to Jesus albeit in spiritual ignorance. Today, I realize that I was not just talking with Jesus, but God the Father. Jesus was the only tangible concept I had of God all those years, One that I could relate to (no one can comprehend the All in All). I had it all backwards, though. I was asking Jesus to ask His Father things where I should have been going to the Father in Jesus' Name. God has shown me, through scripture, I am not talking to Jesus, but to Him. Jesus proceeded from the Father and, I believe, is God Incarnate, but even then, Jesus says to pray not to Him but to the Father. The Father gave me Jesus, my older Brother, so that I might understand the Father better. So I am not just a Christian in name, but a disciple of Jesus, for God has given me Jesus to identify with Him which makes Christ the Way (for me to understand God). Here, now, is the interesting part - how do others relate to God who have not heard of Jesus and/or practice a different religion? This is a rhetorical question, for I perceive we have many different answers. What I do know, and have experienced, and believe with all my heart, is that regardless of how I personally may be led, God has and does enlighten and guide anyone who seeks after Him, by and through His Holy Spirit. The sacred writings, the Bible, and even the doctrines and dogma - right or wrong - are for teaching and instruction and spiritual growth. It is God in Whom we should trust. We learn through instruction, guidance, questioning, and…mistakes. Writings are fine and dandy - they teach. Instructors are fine and dandy but it is the Spirit of God that guides. If you trust in God and what you are being taught does not sound right, then your only choice is to commit your decision to God and He shall direct your path. What you need is the faith to believe that God will do that. Methinks this is what Jesus meant when He mentioned we must leave our mother and father and friends –to let the (spiritually) dead bury their own (spiritually) dead - to follow Him. It is meant in a positive way whereby we must not stay where it is comfortable and familiar if we realize we are now in the wrong place and must travel on if we are to advance spiritually. There was a time when I believed that only Catholics went to Heaven and I found out I was wrong. Then I believed that only Christians went to Heaven and I was wrong. Now I believe that all who trust -not just believe- in God go to Heaven through Christ Jesus. I would not be surprised to learn that I am wrong again, but it would not shake my faith in God, Himself, for I know even my concepts of Heaven and Hell are distorted. I am still trying, as many are, to understand the non-understandable. In the end, it will be my firm trust in my God, my Heavenly Father, Whom I have come to know in part because of His Son, the Christ, who was from The Father, full of Grace and Truth and, IMO, God with us, whereby I shall enter into the eternal. Until that time when all shall be revealed, I will try as much as is within me to walk in the Love of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and that love shall be expressed primarily through forgiveness and compassion, for I also believe that the unforgivable sin is the sin of unforgiveness – a hardened heart. And that applies to all of us. Peace and understanding to all who read.

What the heck is a spitritual? Some secret atheist rite thingy? (only joking, Pete!)

...and the same to you. Oh, doggone, I don't have any gay apparel to don!

Just watch those cheese blintzes and jelly filled donuts!