RevRainbow

Cool, you always answer questions with questions. You have not answered mine: what is the condition set for Ah'hava love? And, do you have a difficulty in accepting unconditional love?. Before I answer yours again, I ask you, what about the guys that had Jesus crucified. When Jesus said to His Father, "Forgive them..." were they unconditionally forgiven or will they fry too?

I answered in defense of Fawzo for I too believe God's love is unconditional and therefore am an "other" as you describe. There are conditions for Him answering prayer and for blessings, but the Love is unconditional, deep, committed and sacrificial, to say the least.

Pete, I do understand why you and Fawzo (and no doubt others here) see the bible as such. May I present a slightly different perspective. Back in those days and prior, everyone, in one way or another, was sacrificing something or someone to their gods. We still do it today in non-bloody ways (although not everywhere) such as the "sacrifice" of the Mass in Catholicism. While I believe God instituted animal and food sacrifices in the earlier days, by law, I believe He did so as a precurser to His own sacrifice. When God sacrificed a "portion" of Himself, it was an obvious statement as understood by the followers of Jesus that there was therefore no more sacrifice for sin to appease God. It was a done deal. My reasoning says that God desires mercy not sacrifice and, by eliminating sin sacrifice, all that was left were sacrifices of thanksgiving and worship. I wonder how many folk understood that they were taking a living creature and ending its life to appease the God that created it! God's sacrifice settled the matter of sin and judgment so that worshipers now could concentrate on what was really important, spreading the love of God abroad in their hearts. No more spilled blood! By being freed from the law of sin and death once and for all, we could concentrate on fulfilling the greatest commandment, of loving God and each other. One might beleive it was a symbolic death or that it really was necessary (I think it was), but the results are the same. By believing the Christ died for our sins as the lamb of God, we no longer worship God out of fear or "appease" Him with blood sacrifices or disfiguring penances, but are liberated to walk humbly with Him doing good things not out of fear but of love. When one is forgiven, a wave of relief and thankfulness washes over them, for the burden of their trangression has been lifted. People back then feared God's judgments, as shown by some of the documented ones, which were related as perceived by the writers. Sadly, today, many Christian faiths, and religions, have placed their congregations back under the law of this fear of being in the hands of an angry God. In addition, Jesus never forced anyone to believe in Him and today that should also be the case. God does not want converts by coercion or force. It is not the numbers that count but the hearts of those who truly seek Him. I believe the sacrifice of Christ is meant for all who will believe it regardless of their depth of understanding it or their religious views. God wants us to have fellowship, a relationship, with Him and we continue to separate ourselves from this intimacy because a) we don't see the need for forgiveness in our life and/or b) we won't receive it. Another sad reason is that many who claim to beleive have all but driven others away due to their actions and judgmental-ism. Remember that initially, Jews who followed Jesus and later believed in the Atonement, were still Jews. And these early followers accepted (after some debate) those of other persuasions, eg: Gentiles,not forcing them to convert to or follow Judaic principles. We must understand that if one believes in Jesus as the Christ, one does not have to convert to anything. Rainbow, are you saying that a Wiccan or a Buddhist can believe on Jesus and not change their religion? Yes, that is what I am saying. It is not a matter of religion as much as it is a matter of believing God. If one seeks God with all their heart, it will be God who leads that person to where they should be. Perhaps that person will be led to a different place and perhaps not. It is a personal matter of trust. I was a Catholic but eventually, I left that form of religion because I was being led somewhere else. Others I knew stayed. Once we are in Christ, there are no more Wiccans or Buddhists or Catholics, because we become ONE in the Spirit. Is that so hard to understand? If we are led by the Spirit of God, regardless of who or what we are, by our faith in Christ, the Great Mediator, we will all wind up in the same place eventually. We walk by faith, not by sight. It is my contention that eventually, if we trust in God and have faith in Christ, we will put away the childish things such as religions, no longer worshiping in buildings of stone but in spirit and truth. We ourselves become the temple of God, for He is within us.

First, a correction, the first sentence in my post should have read "there" instead of "here." Sorry. Second, remember that it was not evil that entered the world, but sin. The sin -Adam knowingly choosing to disobey, produced the knowledge of (between) good and evil. Note to Cool: In a way, if we use OT wording, God can send evil our way (We would not say it like that today!). 1 Peter 4:12 16 "....think it not strange the fiery trial which is to test you...if any man suffer as a Christian...." Is God evil because He allows us, and not just Christians, to suffer, have fiery trials, etc.? Does it not also say that "whom the Lord loves, He chastens?" -Heb 12:16 When bad (evil) things happen to "good" people, we say God "allows" it only because we don't completely understand why these things are so. But when they do happen, we must have faith and trust in God who does know why these things are so.

Dan, here are many verses which can be used to refute/contradict a position. For example, Psalm 54:5, Jer 6:19, Exodus 32:14 and Micah 1:12, as pertaining to evil. How many times did God "repent of the evil...?" I do not think that any of us fully understand this anomaly or we would not be questioning it so deeply. While I will not argue whether or not God created evil (I think He said He did), methinks evil is like good in the sense that it is existing but does not become operative until acted upon. When God created stuff, He saw that it was "good." How could it be good unless there were an alternative: bad (evil)? Satan is evil because he acts on that condition, becoming the accuser and adversary of those who love God. So, for some reason unbeknownst to me, evil and good existed from the very beginning (IMO). Satan was the first to act on the evil long before Adam and Eve showed up, by rebelling against God. What was his sin? Pride. The early meaning of evil is vanity (besides bad). It also can mean worthlessness or chaos in some cases. Eve was tempted and beguiled but Adam ate out of pride and therein lies the sin. Evil existed but it did not affect mankind until Adam acted on it. Now, the scripture states "where there is no law, there is no (knowledge) of sin." The only law that Adam had was not to eat of the tree and when he did, he broke the law and thus came the knowledge of good and evil (bad). If you notice, the bible, as we have it, is a progressive knowledge of the Nature of God and the exposing of evil. As the scripture grows, so do the laws and ordinances, but at the same time, we are exposed to additional Names of God and His works. I believe the bible to be inspired of God because of the intricacy of the writings and how they relate and are cumulative (not to mention all the spiritual benefits I have experienced) over centuries. But I see a danger in not discerning the relationship that seemingly contradictory verses compliment each other, or by ignoring or rejecting verses that do not fit our positions. We must not fear what we don't understand. And if we don't understand where, when or why evil came into existence (and I dont think we do), we must trust in God, regardless. It is no sin to say "I don't know." Sometimes, God wants us to say that, lest we give way to pride and sin. Both good and evil exist but have no impact unless acted upon. We can embrace or resist either one.

So all that pollen accumulates on your upper lip and outer nose? Some mustache!

Usually, I speak at the university. This year, I have not received an invite yet from the vets club there. I remember when there used to be ceremonies and small parades around here, but over the last few years it has dwindled to zilch. I expect there won't be much going on, I'm not even up for my BBQ this year, breaking a 20 year tradition (only six people came to last year's). I'll probably meet my buddy at the pub and we'll wear our old jungle fatigues (theyre getting a bit gamey), and hoist a beer for our missing comrades. My war is now a history book lesson and I am a quaint reminder - thus it is for all previous wars, I guess. As MacArthur said, we dont die...we just fade away. Peace.

Thanks for taking the time in posting this. It's appreciated.

First, you must determine if one is a witch or not. This is usually done through accusation. Once accused, then the alledged witch is subjected to repetitious dunking in water until she confesses. If she does not confess, she is bound with a large rock and submerged. If she rises from the water and survives, she is a witch and can then be burned at the stake. If she drowns, she was not a witch and the accuser must apologize for the error. These are the rules set forth by the Salem committee on witches, the biggest boobs of all.

I would expect that response from a titular bishop!

I think it depends on whether or not one's cup runneth over.

This is turning into a boobie hatch. PS: Don't get me wrong, I like boobies! PPS: I got boobies too, but I'm not female. PPPS: It was after age 60 I noticed a change... PPPPS: where were we?

Interesting. I like it, Pete.

I felt more of a sadness. I will pray for our friend, that God helps him with the splinter in his eye. I am sure someone, a time ago, was praying that I would see also, for I was once blinded. The spiritual concepts that we have and share with each other, though at times different, are all clouded by that "dark glass" which separates the carnal from the spiritual. One thing I realized is that when we gaze into a darkened window, we tend to see our own image disrupting the view beyond unless we get real, real close and cup our hands to the glass. We must be cautious that we do not dwell on our own reflection as we peer into that window, for once we get past it, we begin to see much more clearly.

and there was my sister who thought God's Name was Art...you know, Our Father, who's ART in heaven.

"Love me or die!?" That dont make sense. One does not love someone - even a god - out of fear. I might obey out of fear, but I could not - would not - love.

When I was a young lad, about 9 years old, my Aunt (not a real aunt) Agnes gave me a book for my upcoming Confirmation (sort of like a catholic bar-mitzvah). It was a book that would change my entire attitude about prayer, and approaching Jesus for the rest of my life. My family was pretty solid Catholic and I was raised in the religion, went to Catholic school (when the nuns wore those black outfits and habits and taught classes). So my early knowledge of God was as some bearded old patriarch, sitting on a throne some where in Space, of a Holy Family and a bunch of saints who we could pick and choose to pray to for specific wants. It was all so formal, with the prescribed prayers - we used to all kneel at the family altar and pray the rosary every day on our knees – and patron saints for every malady. But it was when I opened that little book and began to read, I suddenly realized that I could just have a little talk with Jesus and maybe get some answers as to how to get in good with His Father, as well as mine. The book was titled, "Jesus and I." translated from the original French, written by Jean Plaquevent, and published in the U.S. in 1950. It was a book for children, approved by the Catholic Church (imprimaturs, Nihil Obstinate and stuff) and so I was safe reading it. Granted, it was a bit dogmatic, but it was the first time I realized a kid could just hold a plain worded conversation with a spiritual "biggie" and not get sent to hell for being disrespectful! So I began talking to Jesus – I became as a child, for I was a child. Years passed by and the book was eventually lost. Several years ago, I tried to find the book and the only modern copy was much different than the one I remembered. I did find an old copy for sale on Ebay and, when I opened it up for the first time in years, the pages I read as a child were vividly recalled. Re-reading it now brings back many childhood memories (not all pleasant) and how I began to grow spiritually even within the restrictions of an organized religion. Aunt Agnes may not have known it back then, but I have always been extremely grateful for that little book. Later, when I began reading the bible more intently (as a catholic, we were told we could not understand the bible reading it alone, so I never did), I suddenly realized that I could go directly to the Father in the Name of Jesus. I had direct access and didn't need all those saints to ask in my behalf. Having known and conversed with Jesus, He finally told me one day to just go to "Our" Father if I needed anything (I know, You'll say if Jesus IS God then aint that the same thing? Yes and no, but I don't want to get too theological here). So now, in my medicare years, I know if I need anything, I can go to my Heavenly Father and ask, but, thanks to Aunt Agnes and her gift of that little book, sometimes, when I'm down, confused or lonely, I still go to my big brother Jesus and just plain-talk for a while.

(Prithy, I didst not knowest there was a correct bible!)

I see your point and agree with some group's intent of purpose premise. As far as an "agenda," how would evidence of a prehistoric helicopter further Christianity (unless that's how Jesus ascended)? As far as obvious looking tanks, airplanes and rocket ships appearing on cave walls, what other conclusion could I draw as to what they are - the idea of non-working prototype drawings is a little far-fetched also.