Fawzo

Contradictions, verifiable false testimony, a description of a cosmology that is most likely the conjecture of stone age men sitting around a good fire, mythological stories like Adam and Eve, Noah, Job and the whole precept that an Omniscient deity has to kill and sacrifice a portion of himself, to himself, for circustances that he himself allows and is complicit for. Also that most of these stories are most likely the result of influence from writings of the Mesopatamian area such as the Enuma Elish, Gilgamesh Epic, Instructions of Šuruppak amd a host of others that parralel stories such as Job, Ecclesiastes, Garden of Eden, Noah, Nimrod, etc, etc. and all which predate the Biblical versions.

It is not only feelings and emotions which give me the conviction I have. The knowledge showed me that the Bible wasn't the inerrant word of God has been verified in more ways then I can count. I choose to characterize God's love as unconditional because that is what I experienced firsthand, when I stood in front of a presence I believed was the Divine. Which does a wise man trust myth or experience? Especially experience that can be verified with data and what I believe is sound logic. If I have been led astray by some entity, which I find no evidence for, then isn't it all a part of God's perfect plan, and I am still doing his will aren't I? Maybe I'm the modern version of Judas as portrayed in the Gospel of Judas. My desire is one of pure service to God with an intent to spread compassion and tolerance for others among all peoples. If successful, that wouldn't serve Satan's goals all that well.

God would not only be at fault for not insulating, but for infecting a pristine system himself. Yes it seems that God's desire was for man to make choices and first God had to create an alternative choice before that could happen. This anthropocentric outlook seems very arrogant and egoic to me. To think that the whole Universe exists just for we humans and the whole celestial spiritual realm fights over us and our salvation seems ridiculous to me.

Thanks RevRainbow. You brought up some interesting points I never thought about before, like all those who had expired before Christ was born. It would seem to me as if they would have an advantageous position. How could anyone of them reject him?

But in my model an Agape loving Entity is always there open armed for when my ignorance subsides and I come to my senses. He has an eternity with no time restrictions or deadlines to beat. His plan can't fail and no condemned entity called Satan is going to win a larger percentage of souls then God, making God look rather inept. God will go out of his way to save one lost sheep. He hates to lose anything, especially those he so dearly loves and so generously gives his all to. No one I know of on either question. Many though choose actions based in fear and separation instead of love and compassion based on the perceptual existence of duality which leads to free will. Once again all parameters the master programmer allowed within his system with foreknowledge of the effects. Seems like sloppy programming, but with an Omniscient Entity It seems impossible for such lapses and it all must be intended as is. Unless he programs in his sleep!!!

I have to say that I don't see it that way. Adam and Eve didn't premeditate anything and most the others if they had direct knowledge of God and his will I doubt there would be little premeditating as well. If I had direct knowledge that God did not wish for me to speak out against the Bible then do you think I would be doing just that with such passion. The truth is my experiences have led me to believe that is exactly what his will is for me. If I had direct knowledge of what the "truth" really is do you think I would not scream it from the rooftops in every media possible for all to hear no matter what threats come my way. You see God as a judge, and I don't see how it is possible to be agape love and judge anything. Agape love is acceptance, bearing all, enduring all and never failing me, no matter how far I dstance my own self from the love of God. It is not God that judges and condemns me, and sends me into oblivion, but myself that does so in ignorance and fear. Coolhand who in their Omniscience gave the dominion and authority to those entities with foreknowledge of their evil ways????

Great Post Dude! I can see sacrifice as being used as an early stone age tool to help people learn that true love is about giving the best that you have to others. For early man I guess the best and most valued possesions would have been livestock for food and other cultures saw human themselves sometimes such as virgins as the best choice. When Buddha and Jesus arrived man had reached a sophistication level and the ability to thrive and survive where the time for such actions was no longer necessary and our minds and technology had developed to the point where we had some spare time to relax and introspect more on our relationship with Divinity. Rev Rainbow do you believe there is any difference in a person who has never heard of the sacrifice of Jesus yet still enjoys the harmony of living with the Divine and recognizing the Divine within all thing?. Did God need the blood sacrifice on the cross, or was it more that we needed a symbol to bring our focus onto the lengths that God's love would go for us? If God wanted to forgive us he merely had to think it so. So if I walk in that love and forgiveness because I am aware of the magnificence of God's love taught to me by another tradition or through personal experience, what if anything do I miss out on by not being a Christian or having ever read the Bible? I know you already answered this in your previous post but I was hoping to get your responses framed in this manner for all to see.

I understand that you disagree because I personally feel your perspective of where the "Knowledge of God" may come is extremely narrow and limiting. The Tao Te Ching, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Dharmapada, Course in Miracles etc etc and all of nature are useful sources for myself. I am not just limited to the Bible and disregarding anything from my vantage point. I don't ever remember publicly claiming that I am farther advanced than anyone. I do feel that "The Path" I have chosen is a more accelerated path to the ones other have chosen as right for them. I will be the first to admit I have a ways to go, and all paths no matter how twisted eventually lead to the one merging point IMHO. To be quite honest isn't it a bit dishonest not to say that one feels like their path is the perfect one for them and wouldn't a person be a bit unwise traveling a path that takes the long way. So I am quite sure that while not spoken, each and everyone of us here think our paths are best. I didn't say best for everyone just best. So if that is pride then I would say we all might be guilty. Yes we are always in luck when you are present more often brother. Yes the OT is rich with examples of love and mercy, but so too are the stories of love and tenderness of abusive husbands and we hear them quite often from the abused who defend the very person inflicting pain and suffering onto them., sometimes unto death. Slavery, selling your daughter, treating other people and nations as unclean and treating them as if they are dogs aren't very morally or ethically proper from my vantage point. The Bible has its pluses and minuses. The Sermon on the Mount I see as a gigantic plus, while other portions are sheer goat herding feces from my perspective. Other cultures and other sacred writings have just as many and maybe more precious gems to offer. I personally feel that Buddhism gives me a better understanding of the circumstances that lead to my suffering and feelings of separation from the Divine.

Who created the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil and placed it into the garden. Who also cast Satan onto the earth and did not prevent his perfect creation from being tempted by him. God had a whole Universe and many dimensions into which Satan could have been cast. Who designed the human brain which comes out of the package badly restricted and full of ignorance. The vast majority of we humans "sin" or err because we are ignorant and unaware of the purpose and will of God for our lives. I can't consider that "sin" myself. If one experiences deity personally and is aware and has knowledge of God's Will and then behaves contrarily, I could consider that sin. Notice I said "knowledge" of God's will and not "belief" of what God's will is according to somebody else or some book presumed to be Holy. Everything is going exactly according to God's plans isn't it?

It wasn't Satan that gave Miriam leprosy, or that forced Ananias and his wife Sapphira to give up the ghost and drop dead. It wasn't Satan that had 70,000 Hebrews killed because David took a census. The Bible clearly portrays the earth as God's footstool. He controls the waves of the sea and the winds of the air. Not a sparrow falls that god is not aware of and the very hairs on our head are numbered by God. God is in complete control according to the Bible. I will agree with your last statement of "God's chastening is to restore us, not destroy us." but someone needs to remind Noah's flood victims and Sodom and Gomorrah

I know you asked Pete, but my summarization is: An Omniscient Deity who has to kill and sacrifice a portion of himself, to appease himself, for something he himself is complicit and responsible for.

Would you care to venture a guess at what God's success rate is by looking at the world around you and recorded history. It appears to me that His success rate would be lower than that of a Major League Baseball players batting average. Yet if it is God's Will that none should perish and God's Will be done come hell or high water, what should His success rate be? I can agree with your statement that He may desire a family or Sonship which is an overcomer, but with an eternity to wait why must they all overcome within what would be less then the blink of an eye on God's time line, and do so within the brief span of one human lifetime.

Cool, what theologies like Pete and mine does is get ones head and mind out of the book and make them think for themself and seek God personally. It might be true that many people aren't ready and can't think for themselves and need the tidy little packages that organized religions deliver to them. The true adventurers leave the little book on the kitchen table and head off for that face to face encounter with God at the top of the mountain which replaces the book with EXPERIENCE. The book tells us many superstitious silly nonsensical things that no longer apply. It is not okay to kill disobedient children, or kill adulterers and people who work on the Sabbath. The world doesn't sit on four pillars and the earth is not immovable and is covered by a tin sheet seperating the firmanents and a man can't be swallowed by a fish for three days and live to tell about it, unless that fish is a submarine or submersible. We read fabels as children and then we grow spiritually and the fabels just don't cut it any more.

I think you are correct in that belief. What good would it be to play a game or watch a show if you knew every micro-second what was going to happen. Game programmers try to develop truly random generators just to avoid knowing what will come next. Maybe the only thing G_d knows for certain is the beginning or start of the game and the end and he allows his random generator or chaos to rule and spice things up in between. He has a really really big bowl of popcorn just waiting to see how things make their way to the finish.

Dan, God is still the one who sets and allows the parmeters for those behaviours. Adultery would not exist if my little thingofambob would not fit into almost every hoochiekoo on the planet. If my thingie only fit into one specific hoochie that God foreknew and designed for me then adultery is not a problem. He designed neuro receptors and other genetic lock and key systems that worked in a similar manner didn't he? God allows and sets all the parameters for the electro-chemical stimuli that creates such behaviours in our minds. I didn't have any control over their creation at my birth. I don't think the question is so much if God is responsible, the question in my mind is why he allowed things the way they are. If he allows it, then he is responsible and he has no reason to complain or get upset.

He sure does, and that is why I am pretty sure the Christian God does not exist as represented by the Bible.

There is also the possibilty that evil is merely an illusion and doesn't exist at all as is taught by A Course in Miracles. Brother I'm not certain about much of anything. I question my beliefs quite often to see if they can withstand close scrutiny. One reason I love coming here is to bounce my beliefs off the myriad members and see what comes back my way. When speaking about the Divine from our limited human minds it is all conjecture anyway. God loves you but he allows it to come our way doesn't he? If God is Omniscient couldn't he have stopped the existence of evil even before it came into being. You might also like to ask Jesus or Job about what can come one's way when God loves you!!! From our earthly physical perspective evil is a pretty nasty Mofo. If one seriously has faith though that they are an eternal spirit who can never die, evil loses it sting and simply becomes an experience doesn't it.

I listed two possibilities that seem plausible. Do you have any situations in mind that seem plausible to you, where an Omniscient God allows evil and is not culpable?

Ok that clarifies a bit better. Yes the Gospel of John writer tried to marginal the Baptist for this very reason. There were those who thought John was the Messiah and Jesus was just a disciple who took up the torch after John's death. One reason why in the Gospel of John the writer doesn't clearly define that John baptizes Jesus and we merely have the secne of the dove descending from on high. Thanks for the info everyone it will make me enjoy the Summer Solstice a little bit more now each year.

The only way for what Pete just described not to be the case is if that ONE SOURCE was NOT OMNISCIENT or if there were a way for him to switch omiscience on and off in the same manner that some believe we choose to forget our Divinity so that we can come and experience the physicality of the natural world and duality. In the latter case the ONE SOURCE is still culpable however.

I hope you enjoy your evening!! Which St. John is the Festivities named in honor of?

Hurray!

Satan is one of the fruits of the tree! Didn't Satan have free will to choose? Choose from what though? You stated that evil had to exist for free will to exist., if that is the case then once again evil had to exist for Satan to have free will to choose. There had to be some type of database of information for what evil is, before there could be a tree of such knowledge? Where did that collection of evil data originate. All branches of the tree lead back to ONE SOURCE and it isn't Satan.

How can anything God creates not be Divine? Doesn't the fruit represent the tree?

He did say with an aura of arrogance and delusion. So it seems some progress has been made and a few more sessions and he might even be aware of the Divinity of all