Fawzo

Probably?!?!?! We males can't even figure out the female mind yet. how we ever gonna know what goes on in the mind of deity. It is fun to speculate though.

Chester is in my prayer and thoughts. Please let us know how he fares.

Tis true nobody wins in verse wars, just wind up with a bunch of dead bored soldiers!

10 And David's heart smote him after that he had numbered the people. And David said unto the LORD, I have sinned greatly in that I have done: and now, I beseech thee, O LORD, take away the iniquity of thy servant; for I have done very foolishly. 11 For when David was up in the morning, the word of the LORD came unto the prophet Gad, David's seer, saying, 12 Go and say unto David, Thus saith the LORD, I offer thee three things; choose thee one of them, that I may do it unto thee. 13 So Gad came to David, and told him, and said unto him, Shall seven years of famine come unto thee in thy land? or wilt thou flee three months before thine enemies, while they pursue thee? or that there be three days' pestilence in thy land? now advise, and see what answer I shall return to him that sent me. 14 And David said unto Gad, I am in a great strait: let us fall now into the hand of the LORD; for his mercies are great: and let me not fall into the hand of man. 15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning even to the time appointed: and there died of the people from Dan even to Beersheba seventy thousand men. 16 And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand 2 Sam 24:10-16 (KJV)

Made me wonder if Jesus turning water into wine wasn't a form of Witchcraft.

I'll try. I started having trouble with pollen last year and I went to Walgreens and purchased a small $15 tube of that stuff you rub on your upper lip and outside of your nose and it worked great for me. Mine pollen reactions may not have been as severe as yours is.

I do not buy into much of the Judeo-Christian-Muslim reality. I know many hold to it, but for me it is nothing more the anthropomorphizational concepts of late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age men. Not necessarily Goat Herders though I took a two mile morning meditation hike yesterday and three mile afternoon hike yesterday and twirled some concepts around in my mind and this is what I came up with on good and evil and God. There is Beingness and Becomingness. The Bliss and Joy one experiences in estatic moments is the sheer experience of Beingness. These experiences occur most often when the vibrations and fears of Becomingness cease. In Beingness there is no fear or deisre, just the sheer Bliss of Being. Something or vibration , somehow arises within the felicity of Bliss and the concept of Becomingness aka Ego emerges with its Desire to Become. This Becomingness is the Ego with its desire to be seperate from Sheer Beingness and be something other than what it already is. These desires of Becomingness lead to the fears of failure and these fears lead to all the actions and thoughts we humans deem as Evil. I think every action we deem as Evil will be found to be based on the fears of someone desiring to be or have something they don't have or are. Now I see why I feel the lefthanded path of Wicca and other traditions is so evil and foolish. It is the vain attempt at becoming something greater than one can possibly be. It is based on the desire to be greater than the Divine. Instead of flowing with the flow one trys to subvert the flow for one's own purposes. So unless it is possible for the Divine to evolve, which would mean it isn't perfect in any way and is some sort of dynamic changing field of pure potential, then Ego and all lefthanded path systems are doomed to fail. My question now becomes are humans lefthanded path entities themselves and how in a perefct state of Bliss and Beingness does that first vibration or conscious thought of becomingness arise? What about all the verses where God repents for the evil thoughts and actions he incurred upon his chosen people??? Do I need to repost them all again?

Dan also stated "Its my opinion that we freely choose evil (sin). Freewill has everything to do with evil, evil could not exist without free-will. I agree that God sets the parameters, he allows what he allows and is in complete control. " You guys can haggle over who owns the copyrights later

Hi Vortex, First I liked to say that I don't see "chaos" as being evil at all since all ordered systems can arise from it. I do understand what you are suggesting and while anything is possible when conjecturing about God's mindest, your suggestion seems to paint God as schizophrenic. What seems a little more plausible to me along those lines is that maybe God could have both a feminine and masculine aspect. The Anima and Animus where the Anima exhibits the loving kind compassion of the feminine that includes intuitive processes, creativity and imagination, and psychic sensitivity and the Animus which is all powerful the athlete/muscleman/thug and the professor/cleric — "the planner" and "the guide". Maybe he responds to us in whichever of these modes we approach him with.

Dan according to your logic it had to begin before even the creation of Satan within the mind of God. For Satan to have had free will then according to you the choice of evil have had to already existed within the mind of God. God could not judge anything as Good unless there was Evil to compare it to. Free will will, evil, duality all had their source within the mind of God or Divinity. We are merely creations of His mind working within the paremeters that the Master Program has initiated. We are like a computer whos basic language is 1 or 0. We have the choice of 1 which is ego and fear and 0 which is selfless love. Duality, the whole good-evil, male-female, hot and cold all came into being when the "Zeros" became " I AM" and the 1 came about. This is my belief. There is nothing that is not God and the did not have it origins in God's mind, unless you can come up with another being that creates. There is no question in my mind that evil came from God's mind and must have a purpose. The question is why and your concept of testing us fails miserably in my eyes. The only partialy reasonable explanation I can see for its existence is sheer "Experience" as Eternity is a very long time for God.

...whatever the reason the fact is that it is allowed because God wills it so. It serves his purpose or pleasure. God could have stopped and pre-empted any infection before it began. Instead of creating Christ as the propitiation for sin, he could have given his new creation a measles or polio shot. So once again it is clear that evil is a tool God is using for his own purpose. A judge that really cares about the pain and suffering of sentient beings and does all that he can to keep it to a minimum. If God saw that I was going to lose my mind one day and do something stupid like burn down lets say the Westboro Baptist church full of trapped parishoners I would surely hope that he would take me out of this world before I would cause such pain and suffering. The key word being activated. Which means the programming was dormant but the parameters were still there for when situations arose that the programmer forsaw. Either that or he left holes and openings and his Omniscince was lacking when certain random events would eventually occur and Sin activated and infected the whole Earth PC. One argument I once entertained my own self for the existence of sin was that everything God created was good but that certain good elements which when combined made something deadly. A good example is carbon and oxygen. Two of the essential elements of almost all life on our planet, but yet if one carbon atom bonds with one oxygen atom we get CO which is carbon monoxide and is deadly. The problem with this reasoning once again fails when one considers Ominiscience. Omniscience, good and evil is very difficult to justify no matter what deity one serves.

Then you have seen the error in your earlier statement that evil needed to exist for there to be free will? Yes for the sake of those going to hell sounds rather ridiculous to me. The human body seeks out and destroys bad blood cells beofre they are allowed to effect the body. Are you telling me God couldn't do the same with souls before they are allowed to infect our whole system. Of course a person can be codemned and rewarded for what they would have done if the Judge has omniscience. Do you think Omniscience is flawed in some way? I don't think you fully comprehend the full totality of Omniscience if you can make that statement. Because as all your previous statements add up to "IT IS GOD'S OMNIPOTENT WILL" He wouldn't have it any other way, because if he would have it any other way guess which way it would be. He is the Master Programmer and any viruses or worms that exist within his programs are there because he programmed them in. Unless you believe in another Super Master Programmer who can infect your Master Programmers system without his knowledge which would mean your Master Programmer is not all that Omniscient in the first place. Next time you read Isaiah 45:5-7 keep these thoughts in mind and drop the whole calamity apologetic. It doesn't work.

Then your free will by correlation would only be temporary and cease to exist as well. Why do souls need to be tested by an Omniscient Deity. He knows, hes not running around with evil as some type of battery tester going.... good one.....bad one .... good one .... bad one .... Dan not sure yet lol

Now you're starting to see glimpses of why evil is an integral part of God's plan and has always been.

Then I'm assuming from that statement, that you believe the existence of evil is his will then? Why would we freely choose sin unless we were designed by the creator with a propensity for such behaviour. Satan didn't design and program me contrary to Christian rumor lol

Are you saying we created evil? And we dicussed before your free will only works within the parameters which God has allowed and programmed into the system. Free will has nothing to do with evil, just as hot coffee has nothin to do with your choice of hot or cold coffee.

Now then explain the existence of evil! Doesn't Evil then exist as well as "the good will of his pleasure"

There is nothing loving or compassionate about a Deity who behaves in that manner. Even when I was a Christian the story of Ananias and Sapphira bothered me. This was just more evidence that the Death of Jesus did little to soften God's hard nature towards us, whether the married couple lied or not. They were willing to give up their normal lives and almost all that they had and because they lied a little and kept back some for themsleves which is only reasonable for us humans they get the death penalty. I fear they did not make it into heaven or else lieing ot the Holy Spirit could be the quick way in? I personally would think a Deity would be much more appreciative and joyful because a being uses their own free will, apart from the threat of any forms of punishment, to worship and seek out said deity. This is the Deity I would serve joyfully and the one I seek after. This Deity is secure in his knowledge of who and what he is and fully expects that all will come to the knowledge of his splendor and loving kindness at some point in eternity.

What good is free will if you are given eternal damnation and torture when you use it. In a system where it is either God's way or the Hellway isn't that relationship rather similar to the slave and the slave owner. The slave has free will to disobey his owner and do whatever the slave so chooses to do, but if he does so he knows the beating is his reward for opting for his will over his masters. Isn't this the exact same type of relationship that Orthodox Christianity portrays between God and man?

Here is a very good reply to your counter argument which I knew was coming. http://errancy.org/tyre.html The strongest reply There are weak replies, like claiming it's all metaphor, which I won't bore you with. What follows is my discussion of the strongest reply. The Tektonics website notes that, at one point, the prophecy refers to the invaders as "they", and argues that "they" are someone else: the "many nations" mentioned at verse 3. This is a very unnatural reading - I expect everyone reading Ezekiel 26 for the first time thinks that "they" refers to Nebuchadnezzar's troops, rather than anyone else. In any case, most of the prophecy refers to "he", which can only mean Nebuchadnezzar. Verses 10-11 tell us that "he" will enter through the city gates, trampling through all of the streets, and killing the people. But "he" never did. So the problem still stands, even if we ignore the "they" sentences. Tyre was an island city, with associated suburbs on the mainland. Tektonics claims that these verses refer only to such suburbs, but I don't see why they should. The island was Tyre proper - as shown by verses 4-5 predicting that Tyre would become "a bare rock ... in the midst of the sea". These verses surely indicate that Ezekiel understood "Tyre" to mean the island. So when he predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would rampage through all of Tyre's streets, he must mean on the island. Further support for my position comes from verse 8: "He will kill with the sword your daughters on the mainland." These "daughters" are the mainland suburbs, and so it's clear that Ezekiel distinguishes between them and Tyre proper. In the following verses, he predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will bring devastation not only to "your daughters" but also to "you" - which must therefore mean Tyre itself. Never rebuilt? Despite Ezekiel saying it would never be rebuilt, Tyre exists to this day (the island and mainland having been connected now), and its inhabitants are even mentioned, in the present tense, several times in the New Testament (e.g. at Acts 12:20).

lol thats a good one. I've never heard that saying before and it certainly rings true to these ears. So I think we can agree that if there is an intelligent designer to this wonderful world of ours, he/she/it certainly hasn't gone out of its way to make his will for us as perfectly clear as possible. Some reasons I come up with for that is: 1) an intelligent designer doesn't exist 2) He doesn't care 3) we're extremly retarded 4) he gave us free will and expects us to learn to use it wisely on our own....the old throw you in the pool to teach you how to swim deal 5) his message and will are being subverted by an equally powerful being. Any additional thoughts or comments on some of the possible reasons givien above. Is there one you lean towards more than others. I lean towards #4 myself.

Here are some of the failed prophecies. The first one is where Isaiah clearly prophesizes the Nile will dry up during his time period. Three thousand years later and we are still waiting. The waters of the river will dry up, and the riverbed will be parched and dry. 6 The canals will stink; the streams of Egypt will dwindle and dry up. The reeds and rushes will wither, 7 also the plants along the Nile, at the mouth of the river. Every sown field along the Nile will become parched, will blow away and be no more. 8 The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away. 9 Those who work with combed flax will despair, the weavers of fine linen will lose hope. 10 The workers in cloth will be dejected, and all the wage earners will be sick at heart. Isaiah 19:5-10 (NIV) This next one Ezekial predicts Tyre will be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar which never happened. The funny thing about this failed prophecy is that later in the book Ezekial even admits to the failure of the prophecy!!! For thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon Tyre from the north Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, king of kings, with horses, chariots, cavalry and a great army. 8 "He will slay your daughters on the mainland with the sword; and he will make siege walls against you, cast up a ramp against you and raise up a large shield against you. 9 "The blow of his battering rams he will direct against your walls, and with his axes he will break down your towers. 10 "Because of the multitude of his horses, the dust raised by them will cover you; your walls will shake at the noise of cavalry and wagons and chariots when he enters your gates as men enter a city that is breached. 11 "With the hoofs of his horses he will trample all your streets. He will slay your people with the sword; and your strong pillars will come down to the ground. 12 "Also they will make a spoil of your riches and a prey of your merchandise, break down your walls and destroy your pleasant houses, and throw your stones and your timbers and your debris into the water. 13 "So I will silence the sound of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more. 14 "I will make you a bare rock; you will be a place for the spreading of nets. You will be built no more, for I the LORD have spoken," declares the Lord GOD. Ezek 26:7-14 (NASB95) Here is the proof the prophecy failed, with another failed Prophecy contained therein where Nebuchadnezzar is suppose to conquer Egypt which never happened: Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, 18 "Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it." 19 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. 20 "I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed , because they acted for Me," declares the Lord GOD. Ezek 29:17-20 (NASB95) Ezekial undaunted by failed prophecies tries again and claims Egypt will become unihabited for 40 years and its inhabitants scattered to other countries, which never happened. 'Therefore thus says the Lord GOD, "Behold, I will bring upon you a sword and I will cut off from you man and beast. 9 "The land of Egypt will become a desolation and waste. Then they will know that I am the LORD. Because you said, 'The Nile is mine, and I have made it,' 10 therefore, behold, I am against you and against your rivers , and I will make the land of Egypt an utter waste and desolation, from Migdol to Syene and even to the border of Ethiopia . 11 "A man's foot will not pass through it, and the foot of a beast will not pass through it, and it will not be inhabited for forty years. 12 "So I will make the land of Egypt a desolation in the midst of desolated lands. And her cities, in the midst of cities that are laid waste, will be desolate forty years; and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations and disperse them among the lands." 13 'For thus says the Lord GOD, "At the end of forty years I will gather the Egyptians from the peoples among whom they were scattered. 14 "I will turn the fortunes of Egypt and make them return to the land of Pathros, to the land of their origin, and there they will be a lowly kingdom. 15 "It will be the lowest of the kingdoms, and it will never again lift itself up above the nations. And I will make them so small that they will not rule over the nations. 16 "And it will never again be the confidence of the house of Israel, bringing to mind the iniquity of their having turned to Egypt. Then they will know that I am the Lord GOD.""' Ezek 29:8-16 (NASB95) Jeremiah predicts Jehokiam the king of Judah shall have no succesor, 2 Kings 24:6 states otherwise and say he was succeeded by his son Jehoiachin. Therefore thus saith the LORD of Jehoiakim king of Judah; He shall have none to sit upon the throne of David: and his dead body shall be cast out in the day to the heat, and in the night to the frost. 31 And I will punish him and his seed and his servants for their iniquity; and I will bring upon them, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and upon the men of Judah, all the evil that I have pronounced against them; but they hearkened not Jer 36:30-31 (KJV)

I wonder if RabbiO could expound a little on what the word "repent" means in some of these other instances where it seems God changes his own heart and mind. These seems rather bizzare and almost schizophrenic for an omniscient deity. Anger itself seems ridculous for someone who knows something is going to happen ahead of time and does nothing to stop it and then they still get angry. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. 7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. Gen 6:6-7 (KJV) And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. Ex 32:14 (KJV) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel. 1 Sam 15:35 (KJV) And when the angel stretched out his hand upon Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed the people, It is enough: stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD was by the threshingplace of Araunah the Jebusite 2 Sam 24:16 (KJV) And it came to pass, that when they had made an end of eating the grass of the land, then I said, O Lord GOD, forgive, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small. 3 The LORD repented for this: It shall not be, saith the LORD. 4 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and, behold, the Lord GOD called to contend by fire, and it devoured the great deep, and did eat up a part. 5 Then said I, O Lord GOD, cease, I beseech thee: by whom shall Jacob arise? for he is small. 6 The LORD repented for this Amos 7:2-6 (KJV)