Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I said nothing about "material proof". I said "objective" and "verifiable" but I did not say "material". If the Bible is to be taken at face value; the people of long ago and far away, got plenty of proof. Objective, verifiable, facts. Maybe, the people of that time didn't need faith. When people have objective, verifiable facts -- as seems to be the case, way back then -- belief doesn't matter. Now, in the absence of facts -- Now faith is a virtue. It doesn't hold water and I'm calling bull patties.

Without facts, all we have is opinion. If others choose to disdain facts, that is their choice. I'm looking for facts. We have plenty of assertions about God. No facts. I have lost the joy of arguing, with no facts on either side. It doesn't matter.

Yes. Killing in the name of God. Possibly not, the number one cause of death. It's impossible to know. But a major cause of death.

The pious do love their mind games. Anything to cause confusion: and make simple things complicated.

Do you really want to do this? "Cogito ergo sum."

1. Free will is not given. It goes against the concept of free will. 2. Churches are like any other business. They have a product to sell. The product is belief in God -- and Church Membership. They have to motivate the sales force. It is the Church that is pushing the product. God is the product.

What objective, verifiable facts, do we have about God? None. None at all. That makes even the question of God's existence, irrelevant and meaningless. In the absence of facts, all we have is opinion.

The Koran has a great deal to say on the subject of Hell Fire. This is to be the fate of everybody, who does not follow the prophet Mohamed, and embrace the path of Islam. It sounds bad. Or, I can live my life in fear and trembling, of the Christian Hell Fire. Oh, dear. Which Hell is the more scary? The Christian Hell? Or the Islamic? Or, I can relax and live my life without fear. At least, I can ignore fear based fantasy.

Thank you for posting. It's more truth than poetry.

Well done.

You? Never.

Alright.

Thank you. Sometimes, I go off the rails, without noticing.

Yes. Just so. I used to think that I could reason with anybody. Clearly, I was mistaken. It has been instructive. I have to learn how to let go.

Wow. Just -- Wow.

Just to be clear -- that was the best solution that God could come up with? God? The best mind of any and all time? Seriously? The best possible solution?

You tell me. Why would God -- the All Good -- prevent a preventable war? When all it would have taken was a clear prohibition -- from Jesus -- on owning people as property? Why would God prevent any war? But you asked me. Alright. Either God is evil -- Or God is a fantasy. Maybe, an evil fantasy. That explains why God would not prevent a preventable war. It also explains how neither God, nor Jesus, could outright forbid slavery in all it's forms and permutations. Greedy Preachers? That's your answer? Alright. "By their fruits, you will know them". The Gospels are bringing forth some nasty fruit. Maybe, God should prune the tree. If God existed. If God existed and cared.

The thought is valid, even though Yoda is the one who said it.

There is a Buddhist thought. I don't know where it comes from. We all face obstacles. Suffering is voluntary.

Back to the topic of Mixing Money with God. First, we have the Gospels on the subject. Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations John 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables; In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations  Matthew 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Now, let's hear from the money. American Currency "In God we trust" Dan, I ask you. Why is this more of an Atheist issue, than a Christian issue? I would expect Christians to be way more upset, than Atheists over this one. Let me refresh your memory. It happened during the Eisenhower administration -- to distinguish Godly Americans, from the Godless Commies. Well? I'm listening.

The Disciples watched Jesus curse the tree. The Disciples were amazed at how quickly the tree died. If this incident was a parable, then Jesus and the Disciples were part of the parable. That means that none of it actually happened. That means there was no historic Jesus. The incident itself, as presented in the Gospels, is presented as history. When history becomes a parable -- because it's convenient -- you have no history. If you lose the historic Jesus, what do you have? Philosophy. The Resurection and all the rest of it, vanishes. You obviously have no understanding of Jewish Law. Real Law -- not never never land -- changes over time. It accumulates. The modifications and additions count as much as the original version. This is how Law works. When Jesus proclaimed that no "jot or tittle" would pass away, this is what he had to be talking about. First, your view of Biblical slavery is nothing more than wishful thinking. The slave owner is allowed to beat his slave, because "he is your property". Second, God, the All Knowing, All Good, Etc. could have prevented the American Civil War by having Jesus forbid slavery. What? God didn't know how the American Southern Clergy would understand their Scriptures? Then God is not All Knowing or is not All Good. Or God had his reasons for not preventing the American Civil War. God is "mysterious". Oh, puke. What command does Jesus provide? "Slaves, obey your masters."

When you start with faith -- and conclude the facts in advance -- without reason or evidence -- The results are bound to be strange. Consider the world as it is. Not how it should be, or what we want it to be, but how it actually is. Now, for the sake of argument, pretend that God exists. What changes? Nothing. Now, for the sake of argument, pretend that God does not exist. What changes? Nothing. I conclude from this, that neither the existence -- nor nonexistence -- of God actually matters. Which is why I have embraced Apatheism. Because in the end, it's just a lot of arguing and none of it matters. History does have an arch. In the natural course of things, religion becomes mythology. Reality prevails. The nice part, is there's nothing we have to do. The mess that is religion, will untangle by itself. We need only be patient.