Jonathan H. B. Lobl

1. It seems out of place, because it is out of place. Speaking as an Atheist; I am shocked that Christians would allow this to happen. At the very least, it lacks piety. Alright. It's not a Commandment. Still, it is consistent with chasing the money changers out of the Temple -- with a whip. This sort of thing -- mixing God and money -- is supposed to cause outrage in the followers of Jesus. I'm irritated by it. You? Matthew 22:17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Matthew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations 2. "Public" is not the issue. Consider what happens at Christmas time with Nativity Scenes. Churches put up Nativity scenes all the time. On their property. In full display of the public. Do you think I care? It's a Church. I expect them to be religious. They are fully within their rights. People put similar displays on their private property all the time. Do you think I care? People have freedom of speech and expression. I've helped my friends decorate their trees. The same display in front of City Hall? Or in front of the Public Library? Or in front of a Public School? No. That is an unlawful endorsement, by the government, of a particular religion. It is Unlawful. It is unethical. It is an intrusion -- and it is just plain wrong. 3. Marriage is an unfortunate choice to use as your example. Considering how badly, so many marriages end -- Maybe faith is a miserable way to make an important decision. 4.1. Right off the top of my head? There was the admonition that what comes out of a man's mouth is what defiles him -- while things that go into his mouth don't matter, because they go into the crapper. Even raccoons know to wash their food before eating. Hygiene counts. Food safety counts. The historic context was the dietary laws of Kashrut. Thanks to this statement from Jesus -- doctors washing their hands and instruments was set back by centuries. So was food sanitation. 4.2. There was the unfortunate incident with the fig tree. The man had a temper. He cursed an innocent fig tree to death, for not having fruit out of season. No mere parable. His disciples were standing there, watching him curse the tree -- then they stood around marveling, at how quickly the tree died. As a stand in for God -- or God in the Flesh -- or the Logos -- It would have been much more impressive, if he had blessed the tree and asked it to bring forth fruit. Then they could have all had a nice meal of figs. People would be planting fig trees, in memory and honor of their Lord and Savior. Talk about lost opportunities. 4.3. It sure would have been nice, if Jesus had outlawed owning people as property. Another lost opportunity. During the American Civil War -- Southern preachers were denouncing Lincoln as an Atheist, for wanting to free their slaves. These preachers used their Bibles to justify slave holding. Jesus blew another chance to do good. You did ask.

The God that created my mind -- or gave me my mind -- what ever -- should expect me to use my mind. Or, God wants me to be an idiot, and is setting me up to be vulnerable to every con job that comes along. For instance, Mormonism. A cult founded by a convicted con artist. Convicted of fraud. Or Scientology. Founded by a science fiction writer, who stated loud and clear, that the only way to get really rich was to create a religion. No. The mind counts for something. Facts count for something. Evidence counts for something. I am responsible for making an intelligent choice. Not just a choice. I agree. with proven facts, I don't need faith. The choices made by others, in such matters, are not my concern. Neither my friends, nor anybody else, are obligated to agree with me. I am responsible for my own choices. I make them based on what I have. What evidence would it take for me to change my mind? I don't know. God would know. It hasn't happened. At least, not yet.

1. Yet these activities, and so many more, continue. Power is intoxicating to a cultural dominant. Or perhaps, building resentment among others, is part of God's plan for Humanity. You have small cause for rejoicing. In my mind's eye, I can see the return of Jesus. He picks up a dollar bill and looks it over. "Caesar's face is still on the money." Then he looks more closely. "In God we trust." How strange. Atheists can see that this is wrong. Fundamentalists seem to like it. 2. Yes. It is an attempted force feeding. For all your new found awareness, it continues. Every day. Do you imagine that this attempt at force feeding, makes the Christian message any sweeter? Do you think it helps anyone swallow "the Word"? No. It does not. Still, Fundamentalists seem to enjoy the push. I've never seen you speak out against it. You've told me to toughen up. You've lectured me endlessly on the subject of resentment and intolerance. Always, you present it as my issue. No. None of this helped me find my way to Atheism. But it stiffens the resolve. When a man has something worth having -- he doesn't have to force it onto others. They will steal it from him. Or beg him to share.

Hello Mike: I'm not clear on what you're looking for. I do know a bit about pain. I've had a few medical procedures, that took me to places of acute pain, I hadn't known were possible. I have Arthritis. It's been an adventure in dealing with long term, chronic pain. I have been in love several times. None of it ended well. So yes. I know something about pain. None of this, has anything to do with my relationship to God. I'm an Atheist. What shall we discuss? Where are my manners? Welcome to the board. Enjoy your visits.

Good. I don't need my friends to agree with me.

In light of this thread; I feel the need to make a personal faith statement. In case anybody is confused by my Atheism. Or Apatheism. God could exist. I don't have any good reason to think that this is the case, but it's possible. God could exist. If I discover a good reason to think that I'm mistaken; I am ready to reconsider. Something more than the usual tired arguments. Yet again. I am so tired of the same arguments. Usually stated as though for the first time. Scripture is not proof. I am looking for objective, verifiable facts. Until then, I have no reason to care. Respect for my position -- and me -- is another matter. I care a great deal about respect. It is God that I don't care about. Any questions? Good. End of speech. Thank you for your time.

How wonderful. After 2,000 years, you came along and got it right. Finally, someone understands what Jesus meant. Are you ready to tell the cultural dominants to tone it down? The dominants in the majority, who don't care what anybody else thinks or wants? What am I supposed to do? Run purity tests for motivation? This is usually where you tell me that I'm intolerant. And where I refrain from telling you, what you can do with your cultural dominance.

I did read all of it. What do you want me to say? That Jesus and the Apostles were inconsistent? That Jesus and the Apostles were hypocrites? That the words of Jesus don't match his actions? Is that what you wanted to hear? Or -- Jesus was telling people like you -- not to get in everybody's face with public prayer. That was my original assertion -- before you decided to correct me. In which case -- you're the hypocrite. Jesus said so.

Seriously? You prefer unprovable faith?

In my comments on evolution; I was careful to focus on Fundamentalists. Not Christians. It's an important distinction. I hope that nobody was confused by my intentions.

Welcome to the thread. It just got a lot better.

You're talking to Dan. It's like water off a duck's back.

It is the nature of Faith to a Fundamentalist. Only faith matters. Not evidence. Not reason. Not facts. Not external reality. Faith uber alles. They choose what they believe first; then attempt to justify it. Then call the rest of fools, when we don't buy what they're selling.

Dan wants to discuss evolution theory. It's part of a larger pattern. Fundamentalists love preaching Creationism -- and explaining to scientists, why evolution is impossible. Why is that? Is it because Fundamentalists are so in love with science? Because they truly believe that Creationism is science? Or is it because they are consumed by a deep terror? It's terror. Without a literal, historic Adam and Eve; there is no "Fall" from "Grace". No "Original Sin". There is nothing to be Saved from. Nothing to be "Redeemed" from. No need for a "Savior". No need for a "Redeemer". No need to be "washed clean in the Blood of the Lamb". No need for Christ. Without "The Fall" -- the whole of Fundamentalist theology and ideology, falls apart like a rotten house of cards, in a strong wind. It is pointless to discuss evolution theory with a Fundamentalist. Or any other science. Creationism was never about science. Never about correcting flaws in science theory or methodology. Nor science fact. That is a huge fraud and a lie. Creationism was always about fear. When the first domino falls -- the rest follow. If you're a Fundamentalist. I almost forgot to say it. Genesis is not a science text! There is a reason why it's called "FAITH". Because it's not "FACTS".

I'm impressed. Twisting plain meaning out of words -- that completely. You have a wondrous skill. Truly incredible.

Instead of worshiping the Bible, you might try reading it. I'm not the one calling you a hypocrite. It's Jesus. KJV Matthew 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Matthew 6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Yes. Thank you for that.

Do not project your values onto me.

Spoken like a true Dominant. I didn't think that my opinion of you, could possibly get worse. I was mistaken.

Even Dan would notice, if all traffic in all directions came to a halt -- while the majority knelt down in prayer, facing East. In subtle ways; and not so subtle, the minority are put in their place. Such is cultural dominance. Not so enjoyable, when the demographics shift.

Every time, the President makes a big show of hosting the Evangelical clergy -- Every time, Creationism intrudes on science education -- Every time, the Pledge is recited -- Every time, I look at my money -- in so many ways, broth great and trivial -- I am confronted with the fact that my country, my culture and my Constitution have been hijacked. when some mindless buffoon -- no names -- tells me that I'm "intolerant" -- Or, I hate religion -- Or I hate God -- it rubs salt in the wounds. I recently served jury duty. Right there, over the judge's head -- our "national motto". "In God we trust." And I'm the intolerant one? For expecting equal treatment? Understand. I have perspective. In Saudi Arabia, my public stance would get me executed by the State. In Pakistan, I would be lynched by the mob. For all that, my government has failed me; and it's only going to get worse.

Of course, you think that.

For all that, Indonesia is still the Moderate Islamic country.

The American Constitution is doing a poor job of protecting minority rights. Don't expect it to neuter Islam for you. Then again, you still preach Christian dominance.

Indonesia is the Islamic State, generally described as Progressive or Modern. The rules concerning "religious defamation" are enforced. Everyone has to pick a religion, from the official list. Atheism is not on the list. People seeking employment in Indonesia, discover the doctrine of Positive Discrimination. It is permitted to favor Muslims in employment. Not that minorities are discriminated against. Muslims are simply favored. Radicalism is a creeping influence. Small, but growing.