Jonathan H. B. Lobl

If the experts on demographics are correct; Islam is the fastest growing religion, and we will live long enough to see it gain numeric dominance. There should be some bitter humor, in watching to see how the Christian dominants take to the change. I expect that they will find new respect, for ideas like minority rights -- and government neutrality in religious matters. Of course, by that time, it will be too late to matter. But the ideas will finally penetrate. Of course, all the special perks, now enjoyed by the dominant Christians, are setting legal precedents for the new dominants. I live in New York City. I've already heard some of the new street preachers. Dan will find out the hard way, what life is like in an Islamic dominated country. I expect we all will. At least those of us who live long enough. I still think that Atheism is the world's best hope.

Water is common in the Universe. In our solar system, the Asteroid belt is full of mountains of frozen water. There for anyone who wants it. Free of gravity. Real low hanging fruit. What could be rare in the Universe is wisdom. Or sanity. High tech does not make a species wise or sane. It would be nice if you were the historic model, that we could fall back on. A minister of wisdom, sanity and judgment. Someone who understands the perspective of others, without losing his own. Alas, missionary zeal might be exactly the force behind First Contact. Well, til they get here, it's all hypothetical.

I agree with you. We can't possibly know how we would be different, if religion had not been part of our culture. Perhaps, we would both have become much better people, than we did.

1. You keep repeating that. In time, you will discover that you don't dictate reality. No matter how many times you say it. 2. This coming from you? The Wheel turns. When you find yourself NOT in cultural dominance; then you will understand. Or understanding will evade you. In which case, you will simply mourn the loss of cultural dominance. 3. Yes. Just your opinion. Exactly what I have come to expect from you. 4. If only you actually meant that. We wouldn't be talking about cultural dominance.

Perhaps a bit of history. When I protested the inclusion of "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance -- Dan's solution was that I thicken my thin skin -- and cough my way through the offending words. Or stay silent. No. He means dominance. Unless his other face is showing. Both faces are on display on this page.

Yes. Like Jane Goodall, studying Gorillas.

When you sell a crapy old desk, it's available for examination, as is, no false promises. Contrast that with what Dan is selling. Everything on faith, any examination of the goods, is out of the question.

No. Of course you don't find it disrespectful. I'm looking forward to the day, that you find yourself with Muslims in cultural dominance. I expect that you will find new value, in minority rights. Alas, you can not understand any perspective but your own. You spin the truth like a Dervish. You have way to many faces.

"By their fruits, you will know them" -- and that is some foul fruit. What is the fruit of Christ? Christians. Before you trot out the usual nonsense about Catholics not being Christian -- Are you the Fruit of Christ? You, who does such a splendid job of representing Christian values and virtues? The only way your protest makes any sense at all -- is if you think Christians have special privilege. Back to cultural dominance. Most people do not love bullies.

Said the cultural dominant -- while pretending to be reasonable. You can dominate or you can have respect. You have chosen domination.

I was thinking in terms of historic parallels. On Earth, missionaries frequently make "first contact" with isolated cultures. As a matter of pragmatics, what would such an alien culture need? The Universe is full of minerals and water for the taking. Our own world is in the process of replacing workers with automation. What do we have that an alien culture might care about? Culture and souls. The space between star systems is a long way to come for cultural insight. Missionaries might be willing to make the investment. I mean -- missionaries....... Who else would bother?

I know. It's like a mosquito bite. It's trivial, but I find myself scratching without thinking. Even though this makes it itch more.

Well said.

You're still trying to make the rules. No. You can have cultural dominance; or you can have the respect of others. Not both. Clearly, you have chosen dominance. Enjoy your deal with the Devil.

You seem to have forgotten, everything you have ever said to me, on the subject of cultural dominance and Christian rights. I remember, even if you don't.

You don't know how lucky you are, that Atheists don't behave that way.

I'm trying. A Buddhist could discuss "suffering" and "attachment" with anybody. There is nothing about the Tao that is species or culture specific. It's all ideas. I don't understand Stoicism all that well. Maybe. It's ideas. What does Christianity have to offer? Salvation? That's a hard sell here.

It would depend on what they were Fundamentalist about. The Protestant missionaries who went to Korea were highly successful. In wide parts of the world, Islamic missionaries were very successful. Buddhism spread well, all over the East. Or they could have a cultural imperative, to destroy all god worship, everywhere. For now, it is pure speculation. My point in bringing this up, in the first place -- which has been forgotten even by the thread -- is the value of religion. What is the value of religion? If it only speaks to the people of Earth, the value is minimal. If an Earth religion has something to say to an alien visitor -- then it really does have universal values. For now, a simple question. Does Christianity -- or Islam -- have anything to say to an alien?

On the face of things, the Bible was written by people, who didn't know where the Sun goes at night. It explains why Scripture defined the Firmament as it did. Something useful, from Scripture, would have been instructions on how and when to wash our hands. That would have saved lives beyond counting. Instead, we have the wisdom of Jesus, who told us, that what enters into a man (contaminated food) doesn't matter. Only what he says. Something useful, would have been to forbid owning people as property. Instead of rules about how to regulate slavery. A few lines written in modern English -- beyond the Scribes of the time -- would have suggested future knowledge, in the hands of God back then. Instead, the All Knowing, confined himself to the limits of the Human Scribes -- Both cultural and knowledge. It's almost as though God had nothing to do with it. Did Scripture really have to tell us, the correct way to twist the head off a dove -- and sprinkle the blood? Knowledge for the ages?

Sometimes, primitive sells. Earth has a rich history of Ph.D. candidates in Anthropology, looking for primitive cultures to do a paper on. The more primitive, the better. In addition, artists and musicians look for inspiration in strange places. The stranger, the better. Linguists might also enjoy coming here. If only to talk with the whales and dolphins.

Eggs and rabbits are symbols of fertility and signify rebirth and renewal. By extension, spiritual renewal, hence Easter. Evergreen trees keep their needles year round. As in eternal life. All highly Pagan. The new religion has borrowed greatly, from those that came before. Or, if you prefer, stole and misappropriated ancient symbols. My favorite example is the Snake in the Tree. Ancient goddess symbolism, turned inside out.

The question remains. Do you think that Stoic philosophy, might be of interest to aliens?

It depends on the historic model. Americans have a tradition of going to India, to find a guru. (It was popular when the Beatles did it.) Or to South America to find a shaman. Or to Tibet, to find a lama. High tech people, sometimes get romantic notions of "finding themselves" -- and discovering spirituality in low tech places. Missionary traffic does flow in both directions. We can see this by the popularity of Yoga in the West. Buddhism is very much in vogue. The great Zen masters are no longer in Japan. They're in Colorado.

Do you think that I'm being unfair? Or unreasonable? I have a mistrust of missionaries, which I think is justified. One of the historic examples that comes to mind, is the Jesuit invasion of Japan. Islamic missionaries, have been known to employ more drastic means. Buddhist missionaries, tend to actual persuasion. This is not something that we can count on.

Yes. There are plenty of such stories. If our hypothetical aliens had their own version of these stories, it wouldn't mean anything. Unless it were hyper specific. Their god getting nailed to something, for remission of sins, for all entities everywhere. Even then, I would suspect that they had done research on us -- and had prepared a story that Christians would be comfortable with. Let's face it. Missionaries lie. They tell the audience what the audience wants to hear. Not that this would help them with Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Pantheists, Pagans, etc.