Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I was thinking along similar lines. God, the all knowing, knows every change it will ever make. Which means there are no changes. If God can be surprised, then God isn't all knowing -- and isn't God. It's worse. God, the all knowing, knows everything that God will ever know, think or do. That means that God has no free will. There goes the omnipotence. Since every change that God makes, is known in advance, God can't change anything. Which brings us to Dan's line. "God can change what He knows" Somebody has not thought this through.

I know about your source. That seems unlikely. You are not concerned with developments in physics.

More assertions, with nothing to back them up. Fairies could exist. So what? It's not urgent. I can wait. I don't find the Bible credible.

Do we have a choice?

Yes.

Maybe. 👽 🛸 👽

Yes.

I'm going to repeat myself. We have no objective, verifiable facts about God. There is nothing about God that can be demonstrated. God does not intervene, show itself or otherwise demonstrate it's existence. It is impossible to detect or discern God's existence. Worse, the attributes of God are mutually contradictory. Despite all this, God could still exist. It doesn't matter. Even the question of God's existence is meaningless. It is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. There is only one reason to even consider God's existence. Assertions. Empty assertions, with nothing to back them up. Assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence. Threats of damnation, are part of those empty assertions.

1. Did Jesus stay dead? Three days in the tomb, then on to glory. Big deal. The world's worst weekend. In any event, I was speaking of God. In your terms, the Father. Not Jesus. 2. Do you know anything about real shepherds? They kill their sheep, eat their flesh and wear their skins. After years of "fleecing". 3. Are you placing limits on God's all knowingness? First, that's blasphemy. Second, it looks like you are making this up as you go. God knows everything. Everything means everything. That is the most basic of theology. Beyond that, congratulations. You have found one of the many contradictions in Scripture.

Why indeed? The supreme ego-maniac. Petty, mean, spiteful, jealous, vengeful, sadistic -- and He knows your every thought before you do. All He wants is your devoted love, praise and worship. It had best be sincere devotion. Or else. He will know if you're faking. All of eternity. Praise, love and worship. On and on and on....... It doesn't sound like Heaven to me. It sounds like the other place.

When you start looking for logic or consistency, failure is inevitable. Consider the sacrifice of Jesus. The sacrifice that saved everyone, everywhere, for all time. What kind of ultimate sacrifice is this? Seriously, did he stay dead? Taking the story at face value -- he rose from the dead in three days. That's it. God in the flesh was dead for three days. Now he reigns at the right hand of God the Father. The world's worst weekend, followed by eternal glory. Some sacrifice. When we die, we stay dead.

To speak of God in the abstract, is not useful. God is a three letter word. It helps to be specific. There is the God of Deism. Maybe it is real. Maybe it's not. I don't think it actually matters. There is the God of Pantheism. There are some interesting ideas here. All natural forces as God? Conflating God with the Universe? Maybe the Universe itself is sentient? The connective unity of all things? God is One? Some interesting ideas. I think it makes confusion without benefit, to throw in the God word. There are the modernisms. God is Love. God is the ultimate mystery. Etc. In the end, it's all word salad. IMO Taoism allows for more abstraction. "The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao." Sometimes, Tao is translated as God. I think that doing so is a mistake. The Force, is dumbed down Taoism, with it's own mythology and magic. The God of Hinduism or Vedanta is open to interpretation. It is many gods. It is one God with many aspects. Similar to the Christian Trinity, except the idea is taken a lot further. Of course, the God of the Bible and Koran. Along with the angels, devils and other supernatural elements. I suppose it could be real. There is no good reason to think so. The God's attributes are a logical contradiction. Pretense to the contrary, there is no supporting evidence. But sure, it could be real. Not that it matters.

That is very much my point. It is Dan. Why am I engaged with this? I know better. It doesn't matter. It's time to let go. I'm still here for friendly conversation. I'm not leaving. I'm done with crazy.

I don't know how to respond to that. Words fail.

Alright Dan. One more time. It is not the Bible's threats that I find repugnant. It is your threats that irritate me. Perhaps you don't remember making threats? Your words were not hard to retrieve. Perhaps this will jog your memory. "The evidence came and left, but don't worry, he said "I'll be back". Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience." If you insist on making threats, the very least you can do, is remember them. That is not the Bible making a threat. That's you.

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In support of this thread.

I thought that the whole point of the flood, was to remove "wickedness" from the world. God seems to have trouble with his plans. Why does a God -- with perfect knowledge of the future -- have difficulty with his plans? Nothing seems to work out as God expects. Adam and Eve was a plan. The Great Flood was a plan. The Covenant with Abraham was a plan. All of God's plans seem to fail. Yet he know the future. And he's all powerful. And he's perfect in every way. One more plan that went wrong. The Jews -- the people of Jesus -- were not buying what he was selling. Taking the story at face value -- maybe they knew something? When the people who run a restaurant, won't eat the food -- eat someplace else.

I would like to make a distinction here. As nonbelievers -- we don't have any ill will or opposition to the Pagan world. That's because the Pagans don't get up in our faces -- and tell us that we are going to Hell.

And there we go with the threats again. As I gaze into my cracked crystal ball; I can already see Dan's outraged response. It isn't a threat unless you believe it. You know. The usual two faced crap. He gets to make the threat -- except that it's not a threat. He is so predictable.

Not believing now will make that second advent a very unpleasant experience. More terrorist threats. Intended to enforce submission onto the nonbeliever. How very Christian of you. Christ was not cursing the tree, but the bad figs (Israel). Interesting. Twisting Scripture into something antisemitic. Maybe the author meant it as antisemitic? Anyway -- How very Christian of you. Yes God has a temper, In the Bible, God also says that He is jealous. Shall we enumerate God's other character and personality flaws? It's all there, in the Book.

This goes to the core of Christian belief. God, the all powerful -- the God that can do anything -- can NOT simply forgive. First, we need the cosmic circus. First, there is the debacle of Adam and Eve, creating and passing down Original Sin. They understood nothing of good and evil. They understood nothing about consequence or responsibility. But everything was their fault. God the parent is a fool. Any Human father knows, that if he says to his children -- "Don't put beans up your nose" -- that he will have to debean them. Noah's flood was not enough to purify the world. Drowning everyone and everything wasn't enough. Original Sin survived. So, what is God's perfect plan to deal with Original Sin? (The God that knows everything, has a plan?) First, he impregnates His mother with Himself. (Oh, yuck) Then, He demonstrates that He is the perfect man -- for the rest of us to model ourselves after. (You remember how He cursed the fig tree, for not having fruit out of season? He gets mean when He's hungry.) Then, because He can not simply forgive -- we have the drama of sacrificing Himself -- to Himself -- in the nastiest and most brutal ways that he can find. So that He can rise in three days -- one awful weekend -- and rule forever. God can now forgive anything -- Anything -- except not believing this story. Which part of any of this, are YOU buying? Remember, by Dan's definition -- God is Christ. That is how he defines God. That actually fits. The Old Testament God also has a temper. We can't leave out the Devil in Christian thinking. That's a different rant.