Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I'm always pleased to hear from you. I'm surprised to see you on this thread. A mistake? Well, here you are. When I identify as Agnostic, it sets up expectations. That I take the idea of God seriously. That I am striving to come to a decision. That I actually care. The big question. Does God exist? I don't care. It comes down to basics. We have no objective, verifiable facts about God. There is nothing that can be demonstrated. With no objective facts at all, there is nothing even to debate. With no objective facts at all, what are we even discussing? When I identify as Atheist, I find that I attract silly arguments. Arguments of philosophy. (The first mover and such) Arguments of morality. (Is murder wrong?) Arguments of science. (Evolution vs. Creationism -- Cosmology vs. Genesis) Arguments about the burden of proof. (Prove that my God doesn't exist.) Arguments about post death existence. (Like anybody actually knows) Arguments about Bible reality and history () Pascal's Wager, Etc. The really silly part. It's always the believer who get to define the god, that I don't believe in. So, where are we? A god that can't be defined. That may or may not exist. That can't be detected or discerned. That doesn't intervene in the affairs of Humanity. That does not protect anyone from natural disasters. That does not prevent birth defects. About which we have no objective, verifiable facts. I don't care about such a god. Even if it exists -- so what? That is Apatheism. I suspect that Apatheism was the thread you had in mind. I've done that mistake myself plenty of times. It happens.

Punctuation would be a good start. What I find more troubling is your stream of consciousness. I was thinking you might have schizophrenia. I can see from your statement that you are capable of coherent thought. Really. I was wondering.

That's a lot to unpack. As you wish. Belief is knowledge No. It isn't. Do I have to argue about unicorns or alien abductions? , it answers a lot of questions that you can't I want true answers. I don't want silly answers. . What facts do you have about where you came from, or for that matter where anything came from? You have nothing but vague speculative theories. I'm not interested in arguing about Cosmology. You wish to assert that a god created the Universe? Fine. That gives us Deism. Or Pantheism. Where is the evidence that it was your God? No. Genesis is not evidence. Jesus said the Temple would be destroyed, it was. Jesus said he would rise from the grave, he did. Your claims that the temple is still there and Christ is still in his tomb are assertions made without evidence, so they can be dismissed without evidence. The Roman military destroyed the Temple. I have no good reason to believe that Jesus was real. The 'evidence' that you require to substantiate facts were already demonstrated, you just weren't there to see it. The Bible is full of fiction. God has intervened, you just weren't there to observe it. The Bible is full of fiction. . Because you have no verifiable evidence that proves any of it is false, your conclusions are as meaningless and irrelevant as those who believe its all true. I don't have to prove it false. Someone has to prove it true. All of it. Are you telling me that it's not all true? You can dismiss the written record (bible), but that's no different than rejecting an affidavit that a witness provides for a court. The truth was shown, the truth was known, and the truth is believed. I have also dismissed the Koran -- and various other sacred books. Do you want to argue about those decisions? The existence of God is not irrelevant, there's nothing more important. Seriously?

I think he's conflating the Mark of the Beast -- 666 -- with modern chip technology. Maybe not. He keeps drifting and it's more trouble than it's worth.

Further demonstrating that God is not a useful idea.

To Dan: Such wonderful consistency. You will never change. To Key: There are times when reason does not prevail.

Your belief is not knowledge. Your empty assertions are not facts. You have no objective, verifiable facts about God. You can demonstrate nothing. Without facts, there is no knowledge. Without facts, belief is meaningless. Without facts -- you are just as ignorant of God as I am. If you can't show it -- you don't know it. I have long since given up, on trying to explain Atheism to you. I have long since given up, on trying to explain Agnosticism to you. I was certain, that Apatheism would be within your grasp. Clearly, I was mistaken about your capacity to understand, yet again. A god which is not detectable, might well exist. It is, however, irrelevant. A god which does not intervene is also irrelevant. Your empty assertions about God -- your god -- are meaningless. You have nothing to back them up. Only more assertions. Clearly, you have no concept of what constitutes evidence. Assertions made without evidence, can be dismissed, without evidence. On this basis, I don't care about your god's alleged existence. Have a blessed day.

Do you know how to make a simple declarative statement? You're drifting.

I find it difficult, trying to understand your stream of consciousness style of writing. You lack focus. You don't come to a point.

Faith.

It's too much for me. I gave up.

I have gone one step further, than you have. I have gone on to not believe that your God exists. They can't all be right. They can all be wrong.

The ability to express ourselves, through words, is a skill that takes practice. Don't worry. Nobody is grading you. You are doing well now. With practice, you will become more skilled. Like anything else. Remember, the people who don't make mistakes -- seldom make anything else, either. Life is full of mysteries. Deep mysteries. Some people are happy to slap a God label onto things. They think that this answers all questions. I'm not one of them. For that matter, there are different ideas about God. And gods. I am still searching. Still questioning. Over the years, I have found answers and discarded them. Because I have been through these changes -- I don't worry about what other people think they have found. At this stage in my life, I am much more clear about what I don't believe -- than what I do believe. This much I am clear about. It is best for me to be honest with myself -- and know when I don't know. I don't need wrong answers, for the sake of having answers.

Yes.

Alright. I'm considering. Your point? Brain damage might also remove the necessity of belief. That would be a bad thing. Proof would be a good thing. This is why religion is called faith. Not facts. Muslims also have faith. So?

That was a nice try. A really nice try. It won't do any good. Dan's standard response at this point, will be about receiving belief by faith. He will also tell you that accepting belief is a choice. He will say this and he will be sincere. I can't do it any more. Have fun.

You figured out more than I did. I tried and then I gave up.

Atheist is a good word. These are the Atheists who make me want to say Apatheist.

I don't want to argue about having no belief in God. (Atheism) I don't want to argue about having no knowledge of God. (Agnosticism) Introducing, not caring about God. (Apatheism)

And there we are. Unchanging and unyielding. Impervious to nuance or distinction. And proud of it.