Jonathan H. B. Lobl

This is starting to go off the rails. Alright then. We have Dan telling Atheists, that there is no downside to his faith. That the upside is hope. Let us look at these two propositions. Is there a downside? Several. It means NOT living an authentic life. Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? It's time consuming. Life is short. Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. It means being a coward. If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick. I refuse to be afraid. I refuse to be intimidated. No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat. At that, rather a childish threat. Is there an upside? Hope. This is a false binary. It is not Christian hope for eternity, or nothing. The more so when the Christian hope is based on so little. I will say this yet again. Evidence that requires faith is not evidence. Improved life in the here and now. The peace which passes understanding. That is the great Christian lie. That we need only turn our lives over to God -- Christ -- what ever -- and our broken lives will be fixed, as the Christ comes to live within us. To which I call bovine manure. I will now restate my basic understanding. My Apatheism: We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God. Nothing at all. There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be true. There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be false. It doesn't matter whether or not God actually exists. A god which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless, even if it does exist. Finally, I am still ready to reconsider everything, if presented with meaningful evidence. People have been trying for a long time. I have low expectation that this will change. The all knowing God -- if it exists -- would know exactly what it would take to change my mind. In truth, I don't know what that is. I do know that it has not yet happened. In closing, my favorite definition of an Atheist. Someone who has one less God, than a Monotheist.

And a joyous Merry Christmas to you.

Truly, there is no accounting for taste.

Yes.

Over time, the ULC has influenced my own thinking.

I'm going to split some hairs with you over this. I think it's empathy for the suffering of others -- and compassion -- that makes us better people. Logic can help. By itself, logic can also make us better, more effective, criminals. The people who built the gas chambers for Hitler, used logic. The best bank robbers also use logic. No. Logic is not enough. It takes Humanity, with logic.

Congratulations. I was thinking more about the people, who join Gamblers Anonymous -- after watching their lives go down the tubes. Or my friend, who lost his inheritance, in the stock market. Or the people who get sucked into MLM-s like Amway -- and lose everything. A warm glow of faith is not enough.

I have simply rejected one more religion, than you have.

It becomes more clear, if we are talking about money instead of God. You have to Believe. Buy this stock and your money will double. Hang on to Hope. With the next roll of the dice, you will win. No. Belief changes nothing. Hope changes nothing. A false proposition will still fail.

"its up to every individual to discern the truth from a lie." Dan, I have. That is why I'm not a Christian.

I am ready to reevaluate, given reasonable evidence. Something more than blind faith and bald assertions. Without evidence, we fall prey to every huckster, flim flam, confidence hustle and humbug. No thanks. You have no difficulty rejecting other religions. I have no difficulty rejecting yours.

Jediism

Faith

Dan has his issues -- and limitations. I think it's that simple. His mind is rigid. We must not expect mental gymnastics.

Still, you persist. This is a failing strategy, but you persist. Have fun with that.

I think the preliminary remarks, about Agnostics, are interesting.

How little things change. Right now, in India, there are living God men, walking around, performing miracles. Plenty of people offer witness. So what?

All of these labels are just that. Labels. A shorthand -- thumbnail -- condensed version -- of where we stand on religious matters. So, how do we pick a label? We can pick a label, that we think has something to do with our position. I chose Atheist. Over the years, it is simply staggering, how many idiots have demanded, that I prove God doesn't exist. How many idiots want to argue metaphysics. Who insist on arguing about First Cause. Evolution. Cosmology. Etc. Of course -- What if you're wrong? I'm so tired of Pascal's Wager. Every pious moron comes up with the same tired old arguments, as though for the first time. It's tedious. It's boring. I can't do it any more. A few have managed to dig into my brain. I was at a social gathering. Very casual. A pretty young woman wants to know my religion. Casual chit chat. I say "Atheist". She wants to know -- "Can't we all get along?" Using the Agnostic label has gotten me different grief. From both believers and Atheists. When I say "Agnostic", people think that I can't make up my mind. I have been stunned by how abusive and nasty some Atheists get. There is also the snark. Rodger Dalton has a line about Agnostics riding the fence. He said -- You can totally lose a nut. These days, I go with Apatheism. I still have my passions. God is not one of them. I can't do it any more. I don't care about God. It's not important. It doesn't matter. I don't care. Back to your comment about drift. I have done a lot of drifting back and forth over the years. My development has been anything but linear. Living minds change over time. The minds that never change, are either Fundamentalist -- or dead.

The core meaning of Atheism is very simple. I don't believe in God. Or gods. Over time, words do change their meaning, through use and misuse. There are a lot of people, who can not distinguish between -- I don't believe in God and I believe there is no God. There are subsets. Non-theism, used by people, who are tired of arguing about the meaning of Atheism. Polly Atheism. As in -- There are a lot of gods that I don't believe in. Anti-theism -- the people who seriously hate religion. Maybe you remember Gnostic Bishop? That's anti-theism. This is often confused with Atheism. The word Agnostic was invented by Thomas Huxley. Huxley took the position that God is not knowable, so he didn't want to talk about belief. In the common imagination, Agnosticism is a half way point between belief and disbelief. That is not what Huxley intended, but that is how the word changed over time. An additional layer of distortion came with Richard Dawkins, who came up with his Dawkins scale. On a scale of 1 through 7, One is absolute certitude, that God does not exist. Seven is absolute certitude, that God does not exist. Four is dead center, giving either possibility equal weight. On this scale, Dawkins gives himself a rating of 6.9. Humanism came about, because people wanted to say what they are -- instead of what they are not. People who don't play golf, don't spend their time talking about how they don't play golf. In the same way, there are Atheists who don't want to talk about their non-belief. They believe in Humanity. In ethics. In kindness. Etc. They don't -- as Dan puts it -- believe in nothing. We didn't mention Pantheism. God as Nature or Universe. I used to regard myself as Pantheist. On reflection, I think it causes more confusion than anything else. I will throw in Apatheism. One day, I was talking with a Catholic friend. My friend wanted to know -- friendly conversation -- what it would take for me to make up my mind. He knew me as Agnostic -- and he thought I cared about whether or not God existed. That I was searching for an answer. It came to me, that this was also the weakness of the Atheist label. That people assumed that I was searching for evidence. Well, no. I would gladly consider evidence if I found it. The truth is that I don't care any more. I used to care a lot. Not now. I'm not searching. Life is too short. I have other interests and concerns.

Yes. And tedious.

Again? You want me to explain, again? No.

You're quoting from The Age of Reason, by Thomas Paine. One of the founding documents of Deism -- to make your case. “To argue with a man who has renounced the use and authority of reason, Paine is talking about you.

It is the fatal weakness of an Interfaith church. Even narrow minded bigots -- who think the rest of us are headed for the Lake of Fire -- have a place here. Fundamentalist churches can have a purity test. We can't. Interfaith means Interfaith. We are Universal Life.

Now and then, reality peeks in through the cracks. Of course, when people bomb abortion clinics, they do argue that they did it for God.

If you're going to go there -- remember the greatest legal defense in all of history. The Devil made me do it.