Jonathan H. B. Lobl

A lot of people were crucified. It was what the Romans did. It was their thing.

So, the tombs opened and the dead walked among the living. Just a normal day in Jerusalem. Nothing for an outsider to notice. The Roman field agents saw nothing. The historians neither saw nor heard anything interesting. Conversation in the markets was normal. Move along. Nothing happening here. Move along. Do your ears hear what your mouth is saying? This is the big proof of the Gospels? Nobody noticed? There must have been a lot of people not paying attention. Jesus himself -- followed by all those huge crowds...... The Romans needed to pay Judas -- just to point him out.

For me, the real eye opener was the Buddhist thugs of Burma. I don''t know how they square communal murder with Dharma. Somehow, they manage. It's a thing of great sadness. When the religion becomes more important, than what the religion teaches. I don't know if you remember. Before the Chinese invaded Tibet and became the bad guys -- the Buddhist monks had quite the reputation for banditry and cruelty. In India, political Hinduism has a stink all it's own. No surprises there. Theocracy always produces bad things. I'm going to add China to the list. The State religion is Communism. This is why they persecute members of other religions. The State religion of China can't abide competition.

In the ignorance of my youth, I thought that Eastern religion was more spiritual than Western religion. Now, I see that it is only different.

Before I lose this link -- Hindus also have faith. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2019/11/hindu-god-gets-his-day-in-court-and-wins-his-temple-battle/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=895 It's worth a look, to see that Hindu faith also has consequences. It is not as though Christian faith existed, as the only thing of it's kind.

We have consensus.

The Bible is a war book against non-believers. Hence, the first three quotes. "Every knee must bow....." Of course, every war has propaganda to dehumanize the enemy. Hence, "The fool says in his heart....." Look how they define wisdom. Proverbs 1:7 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge, but fools despise wisdom and instruction. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Proverbs 2:5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Proverbs 10:27 The fear of the Lord adds length to life, but the years of the wicked are cut short. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Proverbs 14:27 The fear of the Lord is a fountain of life, turning a person from the snares of death. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Proverbs 15:16 Better a little with the fear of the Lord than great wealth with turmoil. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Of course you feel insulted. That is the nature of war propaganda. Shall we go on to discuss how the Bible insults, offends, degrades, dehumanizes, defames and humiliates homosexuals? Or women? Or Pagans? Or witches? A brutal and mean spirited priesthood, will project their own values, onto their God and into their Scripture. What did you think? That the Bible was a Humanist doctrine? Full of sweetness and light? There are some good things there. It takes careful cheery picking to find them. That actually brings us back to the topic of this thread. Christian threats of damnation. As a tool of social engineering, the threat has not been as effective, as the founders had hoped. (sarcasm mode -- in particular -- for Dan)

Well done. The people who think that Nature is sweet and gentle and harmonious -- never saw a wasp fly into a spider's web. The spider won, but what a battle. That kind of mayhem is going on all around us. What kind of sick, twisted, depraved, deity -- enjoys that constant level of violence? Actually -- the God of the Bible.

An Addendum: The Imperial Nature of the Bible -- and Belief This is why the true believers persist. Non-belief is not an option. Isaiah 45:23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Romans 14:11 It is written: “‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will acknowledge God.’” In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Philippians 2:10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Icing on the cake. Psalm 14:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations Psalm 53:1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good. In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

Actually, it's 66 books bound together. But, point taken.

Dan has been speaking about the importance of Faith. That it is Faith and Belief that vindicates and proves the Truth of Christianity. Let the good times roll. https://www.patheos.com/blogs/thefreethinker/2019/11/hindu-god-gets-his-day-in-court-and-wins-his-temple-battle/?utm_medium=email&utm_source=BRSS&utm_campaign=Nonreligious&utm_content=895

If we are going to pretend that these stories are history -- does that include the zombies walking around Jerusalem? The zombies that no historian thought worth mentioning? Just a normal day in Jerusalem? The Romans took full credit for the destruction of the Temple. Their version is different. The Gospels couldn't agree with each other. Was it one angel in the tomb? Or two? It depends which Gospel. The Gospel writers tried to harmonize their fictions, with the Hebrew Scriptures. Harmonizing with history -- or each other -- was beyond them.

It's a start.

Just so. Those writers knew the Hebrew Scriptures. They wrote their stories to fit. It's called pious fraud.

A state of self deception requires maintenance. Ignoring reality takes work.

Yes. Imagine. There are people who do think the Bible is evidence.

Uh-huh

Of course. Imaginary beings are subject to creative imagination. In different movies, George Burns played both God and the Devil. In both instances, an excellent performance. Not really proof of anything supernatural. Not so well done -- -- Santa Claus meets the Martians. Also, not proof of anything. 🎅 👽

My answer to that is simple. Since Santa only exists as an expression of culture -- what Santa wears depends on that culture. It would be different if Santa actually existed. I remember looking at a department store Christmas display. I found myself thinking -- "This is silly. They don't know the difference between a gnome and an elf." Neither gnomes nor elves exist -- but I can tell the difference. For that matter, I don't believe in the Devil. But he exists in culture. We all know what he looks like.

The position here is that God exists (Theism) -- but -- is unknowable (Agnosticism). That is Theistic Agnosticism. Or Agnostic Theism. The position of non-belief is Agnostic Atheism. Or Atheist Agnosticism. Oh, the hours I've wasted caring about this stuff. All that hair splitting.

Alright. Let's take your example. What possible difference could it make to the ant? Or the whale?

The original meaning, as stated by the words creator -- Thomas Huxley -- was that God was unknowable. It wasn't meant as personal I don't know. It was meant as nobody could know. In the real world, words change their meaning over time. It's common for people to self identify with Agnostic in the new -- I don't know sense. To my own experience, I have used the different labels. I have found that each label becomes the foundation of different silly arguments. When I say Atheist, people want to argue about the burden of proof. The word, Atheist, simply means -- I don't believe. Religious people -- people like Dan, insist on hearing something else. What they insist on hearing is -- I believe that no God/god exists. When I say Atheist, I also get confronted with mind numbing, stupid arguments about meta-physics. I'm challenged to prove that God does not exist. I get outlandishly stupid arguments about Cosmology and the Big Bang -- and Evolution -- as though they were in any way relevant. You know the rest. First Cause arguments; Pascal's wager; Objective Morality; the watch maker; all the rest of them. Silly, stupid arguments. I don't want to do it any more. I've lost the fire in the belly. When I say Agnostic, I get different stupid arguments. Much of it from Atheists. Arguments about what is knowable. Arguments about what is probable. Asking if I'm Agnostic about unicorns and fairies. Of course the old -- What would it take for you to grow a spine and make up your mind? The more recent Dawkins scale. I'm tired and bored with all of it. The label that I have become fond of, is Apatheist. I don't care whether or not God exists. A God which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless. Even the question of God's existence is irrelevant and meaningless. A silly, metaphysic. I can't be bothered and I'm done arguing about it.

This is good. I would take it further. Even if everything we know about evolution was proven false. Even if everything we know about the Big Bang was proven false. Even if it could be proven, with objective evidence, that a Creator God had been behind it all -- it would still not be proof that Christian Scripture was true -- or that the Christian God was real -- or had anything to do with it. To the contrary. We would still have Polytheism, Pantheism, Panentheism, Deism and other ideas and beliefs, to select from. It is not the Abrahamic God or nothing. That is a false binary. The following video continues that thought.

You infer a lot.