Jonathan H. B. Lobl

Yes. Now Dan wants to argue Scripture. Been there. Done that. All very tedious and useless. You know the game. No matter what I say -- I lack understanding. Or something is out of context. Or the translation is defective. Or I lack the Spirit. Or it's explained away by more Scripture -- which sure looks like a blatant contradiction. It's a true exercise in futility. Worse, Dan always makes the final pronouncement. I hate God. Or the Bible. Or I have no spiritual awareness. I believe in nothing........ I've been in that swamp too many times. I'm not going back.

Yes.

I am not going to argue Scripture, with you. As you said. "Folly". That is your rabbit hole.

It is all speculation. It's also interesting. Back in the 1960s and 70s, there was a major fad in America and England. Young people were going to India to find themselves. That was when the Beetles and Mia Farrow, found Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. That's when Transcendental Meditation became big. How's that for a template? They could be looking to us to save them. Or they could be like Jehova's Witnesses. Not dangerous. Only very annoying. Knocking on every planet in the neighborhood. Or they could be like the Mormon's. Very friendly. Another template: Think of the Jesuit invasion of Japan. Buddhist monks travel to distant places, spreading Dharma. That sort of thing could be fun. Not so much, if they are spreading the True Faith, by the sword, like Islamists. Or they could be Atheists. It's all speculation. TO SERVE MAN

Now, now. Cherry picking is it's own skill set.

I never said that you were stupid. I said that your mind is very, very rigid.

If I said Atheism offers no hope, no inner peace, is a waste of time, is the cowards choice, and leads to no where, you would probably consider my perspective of atheism to be disparaging. See how the ball rolls both ways? Cut the crap. That has always been your opinion, and you have not been shy about stating it.

It's part of a larger pattern. This doctrine that God is not all knowing -- that God can be surprised. Dan also keeps insisting that Noah's Flood was a local event. (All the animal "kinds" of the world, had to be saved from extinction. Over a local disaster.) That the Lake of Fire results in permanent extinction. Not the eternal torment that Christianity has preached for 2,000 years. Dan is not preaching standard doctrine. I don't know if he's making this crap up as he goes. It looks like it. To me, it looks like heresy. Not the standard Evangelical teachings.

That is the strength of Polytheism. When the Greek and Roman cultures met, their gods also met. From what I can see, both cultures, and their gods, did just fine. I think that when people are prepared to coexist, their gods also get along.

So much for God being all knowing. This is heretical at the most basic level.

In households with at least one dog and at least one cat -- the dogs and cats often become close friends. It's the old nature vs. nurture argument.

Yes.

Dan, you made a flat declarative statement, that there were no downsides to becoming Christian. I named three. You call this disparaging? "disparaged my faith" When you insist on calling on Atheists to take up your faith. When you further declare that doing so, has no downside. Atheists are going to point out the downsides. This is not disparaging. This is refusing to take your crap. The time for Atheists to roll over and just take it, is past.

Speculations on Alien Life and Religion

Back to a look at evidence. No matter how often faith and prayer fail.......

This is not complicated. Every idea that I put forth, gets filtered through Dan's belief system. What emerges is not recognizable. It was never my intention to turn Dan into an Atheist. Or an Agnostic. I did try -- very hard -- to get Dan to understand, what those words mean. It was a vain attempt. It was also my conceit. I used to think that I could explain anything, that I understood -- to anybody. I was mistaken. No matter. I have learned a valuable lesson. Life goes on.

If God were all powerful. If God cared. A way could be found. People couldn't do it. God could. If God were not all powerful. If God could not be bothered. If people were behind all of it. We would have a situation, that looks like what we have. If God, the all powerful, all good, all knowing, all caring, involved with Humanity -- were really the force behind religion -- what would the world look like? Not like this. If people were behind all of it -- what would the world look like? Exactly like this. Is this proof of God's non-existence? No. God could still exist. Still, call it circumstantial evidence. Of course, if we only care about faith -- and belief -- and ignore the obvious.........

Within the English translations alone, there is tremendous variety in wording. Each difference in wording, has great change in meaning. www.BibleGateway.Com Have fun.

I want to be clear about my message. Dan is not stupid. His mind is very, very rigid, but this is not stupidity. It is a limitation. I don't expect someone with sever arthritis, to engage in gymnastics. I don't expect Dan, to understand Atheism. Or Atheists. I have been slow in understanding this. I used to think that Dan was playing evil mind games. No. I was mistaken. He has limits. I don't know who said it. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. The attempt is doomed to fail -- and it annoys the pig."

Yes.

I was responding to your insistence, that there is no downside to faith. I listed three downsides. You responded. Alright. Your responses. Is there a downside? Several. It means NOT living an authentic life. Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets. It's time consuming. Life is short. Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time. It means being a coward. If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick. I refuse to be afraid. I refuse to be intimidated. No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat. At that, rather a childish threat. There's no stick (Lake of Fire) to believers, so no downside. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right. 1. Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets. I am living my truth. You are insisting that I live your truth. No. You don't understand my perspective. 2. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time. I am still responding to your insistence, that there is no downside -- for me -- to take up your faith. The downside is that I take my short life -- and waste much of it -- living your life style. That is one big honking downside. No. You don't understand my perspective. 3. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right. I am still responding to your insistence, that there is no downside -- for me -- to take up your faith. My doing so -- out of concern for the Lake of Fire -- comes close to defining cowardice. I am not afraid. I will not allow you to make me fearful. You have tried. For this, I cite your telling me, that Christ returning will be "unpleasant" for me. Again, you don't understand my perspective. Further, there is your continued insistence that I believe in nothing. No. I don't have your beliefs. That is not believing in nothing. Your inability to understand even this, is telling. No. You don't understand my perspective. Clearly, you don't understand any point of view -- about anything --which is not yours.

Scribal Changes

This is starting to go off the rails. Alright then. We have Dan telling Atheists, that there is no downside to his faith. That the upside is hope. Let us look at these two propositions. Is there a downside? Several. It means NOT living an authentic life. Why would I live a life, predicated on someone else's beliefs? Living what you believe to be true is as authentic as it gets. It's time consuming. Life is short. Too short to spend all that time in Bible study; worship services; prayer; etc. If you cherish something, you don't consider it a waste of time. It means being a coward. If existence in Heaven is the carrot --- then the Lake of Fire is the stick. I refuse to be afraid. I refuse to be intimidated. No matter how we play with words, this is a terrorist threat. At that, rather a childish threat. There's no stick (Lake of Fire) to believers, so no downside. Believers believe Christ was right, so following him is doing the right thing, and there's nothing cowardly about doing that which is right. Is there an upside? Hope. This is a false binary. It is not Christian hope for eternity, or nothing. The more so when the Christian hope is based on so little. I will say this yet again. Evidence that requires faith is not evidence. Hope is not based on nothing, some folks just don't need all the evidence that you demand, they are content to believe with the information that's available. Improved life in the here and now. The peace which passes understanding. That is the great Christian lie. That we need only turn our lives over to God -- Christ -- what ever -- and our broken lives will be fixed, as the Christ comes to live within us. To which I call bovine manure. Don't knock what you've never tried. Perhaps you have no peace because you believe in nothing divine and stopped caring about it. You don't know it, but that's the broken part of you that needs fixing, otherwise your just an empty vessel wandering aimlessly. I will now restate my basic understanding. My Apatheism: We have no objective, verifiable facts or information about God. Nothing at all? There's information, you've just decided not to believe it. There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be true. Christ demonstrated it, but you've chosen to discard that too. There is nothing about God which can be demonstrated to be false. While not proof, the absence of any falsehood lends credibility to a God. It doesn't matter whether or not God actually exists. A god which can not be detected or discerned is irrelevant and meaningless, even if it does exist. God was demonstrated through Christ, He is discerned through Christ, His relevance and meaningfulness are only apparent when you believe in Christ. Finally, I am still ready to reconsider everything, if presented with meaningful evidence. People have been trying for a long time. I have low expectation that this will change. It won't change, because the type of verifiable evidence that you demand is not available (yet). You prove your desire for God before He proves Himself to you, and that requires faith, which is something you obviously struggle with. The all knowing God -- if it exists -- would know exactly what it would take to change my mind. In truth, I don't know what that is. I do know that it has not yet happened. God doesn't change minds, He revealed himself through Christ and then the decision is up to you. Otherwise, its like forcing you to marry a woman you hate, and then waiting for her to change your mind. In closing, my favorite definition of an Atheist. Someone who has one less God, than a Monotheist. A Christian = Someone who has one more God than an Atheist, and the hope of something beyond the here & now. Wow. Just wow. Dan, you have demonstrated, yet again, that you can not see anybody's perspective but your own.

This is a common conceit, that keeps popping up among Christians. Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is a special relationship with God. Everybody else has religion. Which other religions are not religions? Islam. Ask any devout Muslim. Islam is not a religion. Islam is submission to the will of Allah. Everybody else only has religion. Is that it? No. Judaism is not a religion. Ask any Orthodox Jew. Judaism is not a religion. Judaism is the Covenant between God and the Jewish People. Jewish Law, expressed in Talmud, is the expression of God's will. Everybody else has religion. Buddhism is not a religion. Buddhism is a practice which is suitable for everyone. Whether or not they have religion. Hinduism is not a religion. Hinduism is a Science of Spirituality. Yoga means yoke. It is the process by which we yoke our selves to God. Need I say it? Everybody else has religion. Which brings us back to you, Dan. You don't have religion. You have a relationship with Christ. How very special.

I have spent much of my life in the company of loving cats. This is where I learned my best lessons in empathy. That things like pain and hunger and fear are not limited by species. That love transcends species. After that, race is nothing.