Jonathan H. B. Lobl

I let people define themselves. That is the Interfaith way. The Mormons say that they are Christians. That's good enough for me.

Yes. Atwater Vitki (AKA Rev. Al) is a priest (Vitki). You might as well ask somebody who knows.

In general, I agree with your observations about Science. Religion is more ambiguous. It is not all based on revelation and sacred scripture. Or Deity.

After Emperor Constantine, the Roman Empire was Christian. True, the climate change and the plague didn't help. Christian disdain for hygiene was no help either. Bathing was considered impious. What also didn't help was accusing the Jews of poisoning the wells.

Perhaps it would be helpful to restate the question. If Christianity was not responsible for the Dark Ages -- who or what was?

"No matter how hard you try; you can not baptise a cat."

The Unity behind existence does not "render righteous judgement." IMO

If you want to travel down that path; be ready for where it takes you. Fractals are an expression of chaos theory. Order comes from disorder. The process of randomness is what gives rise to fractals. That suggests that there is no guiding force behind existence. None at all. IMO.

Not a problem. Something between you and God does not need words. It's a private thing -- and silent.

Not so crazy. Fractals show us the basic patterns of Creation. Some of those shells show fractal patterns.

There is a lot of Christian thought on the merits and nature of pain -- as a gift to God. In particular, the aspect of suffering. I am the wrong person to expound on this stuff. I don't understand it and I don't want to misrepresent it. I don't know what kind of suffering can be experienced by someone with full Christ Consciousness. I am so far from that state of awareness, that I can't begin to know. I can speculate that pain still hurts. From what little I do get of Christian theology -- if Jesus had not suffered, the pain would not have been redemptive. No, I don't get it. To each, their own.

This might sound a little odd coming from me. Still, you asked. Most people who suffer such a death do not do so voluntarily. If someone does undertake such a death -- of his own free will -- with fully developed Christ Consciousness -- and true awareness of the interconectedness of all things......... Well, there would be a lot more involved in such a death than suffering.

You seem to be addressing this to me. I'm not clear on what you are asking. Perhaps you could rephrase?

Nobody answered my question. How is a pseudo skeptic different from a real skeptic?

Is there a specific aspect of the Dark Ages that you would care to focus on?

I still find the terms of this thread confusing.

Who ever said it was right. "Getting old is not for wimps."

If the church ever does decide to follow their rules for confession, contrition and pennance in this regard -- I'll deal with it. Really, what are the odds that I will live long enough to see it? It took them 500 years to appologise -- sort of -- to Gallileo. The current Pope is not in an appologetic mood. Just a few years ago, he stated that, only the Catholic Church has Appostolic Succession. All the other churches are mearly "ecclesiastic communities." Clearly, the opinion of outsiders means nothing to him.

I didn't need your article. I remember my outrage at the time, that the Pope was appologising to God instead of "us." And even then, leaving out the details. I am well aware of the American crimes against Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The American government does not pretend to be seated in the Throne of St. Peter -- for all time -- as the conscience of the world. If the RCC wants to claim that position, they have other standards to live up to. They could start by following their own rules for confession. Note -- their own rules.

Thank you. While I am in my current mood -- The Roman Catholic Church has specific rules for forgiveness of sin. It requires full confession. No confession -- no forgiveness. By the rules of the confessional, it is only the sins that are confessed that can be forgiven. "Oops, I did things that I should not have" -- doesn't do the job. Hinting at specific crimes also doesn't cut it -- even if the specifics can be "infered." (The Crusades) Only when these conditions are met -- in full -- is the confession considered an indication of true contrition -- by the Church.

It is nice that the Pope asked God to forgive his church for crimes against the Jews. Now, if he had actually appologised to the Jews, instead of God, it would have been more impressive. Even more so if the Jews had found out about it. I also note that among the crimes -- unspecifed -- there was no mention of forced conversion.

I'm 59. This is not old, but I can see some emerging patterns. I need more sleep than I used to. The pounds come more quickly if I get careless. I pee more often. My BS detector goes off more than it used to. My value in the job market is greatly diminished. My neck makes sounds that it never used to. I feel my knees more. My inclination to join causes is diminishing. For what ever it's worth, my spiritual understanding is much improved. My understanding of reiki is maturing. Life. Considering the alternatives.......

I never said that Christians had a monopoly on evil. It would be easy to make the opposite case. Not the point. This thread -- at least in the beginning -- is about Christian responsibility for the "Dark Ages." That is what my response was based on.

Nobody has mentioned antisemitism. In 1492, the Jews of Spain were given a choice. They could become Catholic or they could leave Spain. So many Jews converted -- on the surface -- that the Church became suspicious of their sincerity. This was the start of the Inquisition. Nothing quite like spreading the "Love of Christ" to make the world a better place. While we are at it -- ask any Wiccan about the "Burning Times." Oops, I didn't mention the Crusaders. While they were busy killing Jews and Muslims; they sacked Constantinople -- which was Christian.

From loose observation; the bulk of senior discounts start at age 65.