Christianity in Star Trek

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Our foundation outside of ourselves is the process of logic.  We're capable of reasoning out good morals and differentiating from bad ones, such as keeping slaves forever if they have kids with the spouse we provided 

 

I never meant to imply that you weren't capable of exercising good morals. Of course commonsense (logic) can dictate good morals.

Slaves were generally prisoners of war, enemies who sought to kill/murder Israelis. Today we imprison enemies of the state forever, but they didn't waste money building prisons back then, they enslave them forever instead. Different times, different solutions. But indentured servitude was a time restricted contract, not forever.     

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

33 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

“And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.” (Matthew 21:19).

 

“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:” (Matthew 21:32). This is alluding to the nation, which would wither away. But Israel would be reunited (1948) Jerusalem (1967). The fig tree representing that rebirth, which would signify the end times, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors" (Verse 33). 

 

It was the old testament prophecy that Jesus was expounding upon, which describes the scattering of Israel (evil figs) “And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.” ( Jeremiah 24:9). But towards the end times, “For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.” (Jeremiah 24:6)

 

 

 

I went back and read Matt 21:19.

1.  Jesus cursed the fig tree to death.

2.  He did this in front of his disciples.

3.  His disciples marveled at how quickly the tree died.

4.  In verse 21, Jesus explains to his disciples that this is a an example of spiritual power.  He goes on to explain that this is nothing.  That they can make a mountain jump into the sea.

 

What the bleep is wrong with you?  Didn't you think that I would pick up a Bible and check?

 

This is no parable.  It's straight out narrative.

[Yosef]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

“And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away.” (Matthew 21:19).

 

“Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:” (Matthew 21:32). This is alluding to the nation, which would wither away. But Israel would be reunited (1948) Jerusalem (1967). The fig tree representing that rebirth, which would signify the end times, "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors" (Verse 33). 

 

It was the old testament prophecy that Jesus was expounding upon, which describes the scattering of Israel (evil figs) “And I will deliver them to be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth for their hurt, to be a reproach and a proverb, a taunt and a curse, in all places whither I shall drive them.” ( Jeremiah 24:9). But towards the end times, “For I will set mine eyes upon them for good, and I will bring them again to this land: and I will build them, and not pull them down; and I will plant them, and not pluck them up.” (Jeremiah 24:6)

 

That is an interesting interpretation. I always saw the fig tree in the form of a mashal (parable) as representing the fruitlessness of the Temple Priesthood and the eventual destruction of it. 

 

20 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This is no parable.  It's straight out narrative.

 

In the narrative interpretation, Yeshua would be seen as confused or quite possibly a lunatic as fig trees do not bear fruit in the spring. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by Yosef

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 minutes ago, Yosef said:

 

That is an interesting interpretation. I always saw the fig tree in the form of a mashal (parable) as representing the fruitlessness of the Temple Priesthood and the eventual destruction of it. 

 

 

In the narrative interpretation, Yeshua would be seen as confused or quite possibly a lunatic as fig trees do not bear fruit in the spring. 

 

Open any Bible and read the actual text.  Jesus is not telling a story.  He is standing in front of them and cursing a fig tree to death.  Then they stand there, lost in admiration for how quickly the tree died.

 

Am I seeing something that isn't there?

 

Take this one step further.  Pretend that you are one of the disciples.  Jesus is in a bad mood.  He's hungry and he just killed a tree - because he's hungry and in a bad mood.

 

What would you say to him?  "Oh wow!  That was great!"

 

Dude had a temper.  Would you tell him to chill?

 

[Yosef]

5 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Open any Bible and read the actual text.  Jesus is not telling a story.  He is standing in front of them and cursing a fig tree to death.  Then they stand there, lost in admiration for how quickly the tree died.

 

Am I seeing something that isn't there?

 

Take this one step further.  Pretend that you are one of the disciples.  Jesus is in a bad mood.  He's hungry and he just killed a tree - because he's hungry and in a bad mood.

 

What would you say to him?  "Oh wow!  That was great!"

 

Dude had a temper.  Would you tell him to chill?

 

I see where the confusion is, I should have clarified. Yes, the cursing of the fig tree in Mark is extremely narrative and leaves little from for interpretation. I agree with you. When I was speaking of the mashal I was referring to the fig tree story in Luke. Sorry for not clarifying, that is my fault.

 

Yosef,

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I went back and read Matt 21:19.

1.  Jesus cursed the fig tree to death.

2.  He did this in front of his disciples.

3.  His disciples marveled at how quickly the tree died.

4.  In verse 21, Jesus explains to his disciples that this is a an example of spiritual power.  He goes on to explain that this is nothing.  That they can make a mountain jump into the sea.

 

What the bleep is wrong with you?  Didn't you think that I would pick up a Bible and check?

 

This is no parable.  It's straight out narrative.

 

What happened in Matthew 21 was not the parable itself, but an illustration of the parable that Jesus instructed them to learn. The parable itself is found in Luke 13:6-9; "He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down'.

 

The symbology of the parable is that the fig tree is representative of Israel, and Christ represented the vineyard owner who found no fruit in Israel for 3 years of his ministry. When Jesus cursed the fig tree, he was teaching that the parable would be brought to fruition. He was encouraging his disciples to connect the dots.

 

"This mountain" is referencing the Mount of Olives, on which they were standing, and Moriah of which the temple stood. "Be thou removed" was fulfilled when the temple was destroyed. Mountain and sea are hyperbole, Mountains can represent nations and "sea" represents multitudes of people. The inhabitants of Israel (mountain) were thrown in the sea, in the sense that they were scattered among the multitudes in many nations. “Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves and for your children" (Luke 23:28) 

[Dan56]

In retrospect, I'm confident that my preceding post will go right over your head. Your intent has never been towards advancing biblical understanding, but to simply ridicule and condemn what you've rejected from the onset.

 

You don't get it because the message was spiritual, the fig tree didn't bear fruit because it was "out of season", so it (Israel) would be a nation (mountain) cast into the sea (sea representing the gentile people of the world). And it would remain so until the end times, which would be marked by the fig tree (Israel) being re-established.

 

The narrative wasn't the fig tree itself, it was used metaphorically. When Jesus figuratively condemned the tree he was literally condemning Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. The parable was preceded by his words: "Except ye repent ye shall likewise perish". The owner of the vineyard is the God of Israel (Isa 5:7). The dresser is the Messiah (3 years). Cursing the fig tree was simply demonstrating the parable, but the reality of the lesson wasn't cutting down a fruitless tree, but cutting loose a nation that didn't bear spiritual fruit. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

51 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

In retrospect, I'm confident that my preceding post will go right over your head. Your intent has never been towards advancing biblical understanding, but to simply ridicule and condemn what you've rejected from the onset.

 

You don't get it because the message was spiritual, the fig tree didn't bear fruit because it was "out of season", so it (Israel) would be a nation (mountain) cast into the sea (sea representing the gentile people of the world). And it would remain so until the end times, which would be marked by the fig tree (Israel) being re-established.

 

The narrative wasn't the fig tree itself, it was used metaphorically. When Jesus figuratively condemned the tree he was literally condemning Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple. The parable was preceded by his words: "Except ye repent ye shall likewise perish". The owner of the vineyard is the God of Israel (Isa 5:7). The dresser is the Messiah (3 years). Cursing the fig tree was simply demonstrating the parable, but the reality of the lesson wasn't cutting down a fruitless tree, but cutting loose a nation that didn't bear spiritual fruit. 

 

You sent me to Matt 19:  I read it.  Now you're mad because I don't see your spin.

 

What I am seeing is why there are so many divisions within Christianity.  Christians can't agree on this stuff.  What do you want from me?

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

You sent me to Matt 19:  I read it.  Now you're mad because I don't see your spin.

 

What I am seeing is why there are so many divisions within Christianity.  Christians can't agree on this stuff.  What do you want from me?

 

I ain't mad, nor do I want anything from you. Most Christians agree on the meaning of that parable, its nothing complicated. There's no spin, in Matthew 21 Jesus simply told his disciples to learn the Parable of the Fig Tree, but a reader must go to Luke 13: 6-9 to find the parable in order to learn it. You can't understand the prophecy without knowing what the parable represented. It had nothing to do with actual trees or fruit, but the spiritual implications of the Pharisees and Jews who bore no fruit. The condemnation was not the tree, but directed towards the people who persecuted, rejected, and killed their Messiah.

 

You've often quoted Matthew 7: 19-20, which is more less emphasizing the same thing, "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them".  Jesus got to know the naysayers and hypocrites, who all withered away just like that symbolic fig tree, along with the temple. city, and nation... Just put it on a shelf if you don't get it, I just thought I'd try to explain it.     

[RabbiO]

On 3/5/2022 at 3:30 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I went back and read Matt 21:19.

1.  Jesus cursed the fig tree to death.

2.  He did this in front of his disciples.

3.  His disciples marveled at how quickly the tree died.

4.  In verse 21, Jesus explains to his disciples that this is a an example of spiritual power.  He goes on to explain that this is nothing.  That they can make a mountain jump into the sea.

 

What the bleep is wrong with you?  Didn't you think that I would pick up a Bible and check?

 

This is no parable.  It's straight out narrative.

In a world of ever shifting fads and fancies, in a world of filled with uncertainties, it is reassuring to know that there is not total chaos, that there are at least some constants.

 

In other words, no matter how long the interlude between my visits here, I can always count on finding the two of you verbally sparring  with one another. It lends a certain level of stability to these days.

 

Both of you take care of yourselves.

[Key]

On 3/4/2022 at 9:53 PM, Dan56 said:

 

I'm aware of that, but if you think that passage was describing an erratic episode of Jesus losing his temper over a fig tree not yielding fruit, your not reading with any degree of understanding. You have a habit of mocking what you don't comprehend.

 

 

No contradiction, everyone has morals to some degree, but believers have a foundation outside of themselves..  Is the death penalty wrong? Is homosexuality right? My answers would be rooted in what I believe, and not necessarily in what I personally think or my own moral standards. You no doubt would agree that murder is wrong, but that morality emanates from within your own judgement or what the government tells you. An atheist  morals are not based on any foundation of truth outside of themselves.

Dan, when you seriously contemplate it, you are saying your morals' foundation is actually based outside of yourself. You base it on Scripture written by other people that gave basis to an organized religion. Basically, from what someone else told you. No different than how you think atheist find their morals. it seems.

 

[RabbiO]

Flipping through the thread I did not see anyone note the irony that both Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock were played by proud Jews. Also, Walter Koenig ,who played Chekov, is a Jew.

Edited March 24, 2022 by RabbiO
Correct spelling and grammar.

[Dan56]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:29 PM, Key said:

Dan, when you seriously contemplate it, you are saying your morals' foundation is actually based outside of yourself. You base it on Scripture written by other people that gave basis to an organized religion. Basically, from what someone else told you. No different than how you think atheist find their morals. it seems.

 

 

I reckon that's true.

 

2 hours ago, RabbiO said:

Flipping through the thread I did not see anyone note the irony that both Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock were played by proud Jews. Also, Walter Koenig ,who played Chekov, is a Jew.

 

Never knew that until now.

[Pastor Dave]

18 hours ago, RabbiO said:

Flipping through the thread I did not see anyone note the irony that both Capt. Kirk and Mr. Spock were played by proud Jews. Also, Walter Koenig ,who played Chekov, is a Jew.

I didn't know that Kirk and Chekhov were Jews. I read a long time ago that Spock was a Jew. If I remember correctly he came up with the Vulcan "live long and prosper" greeting based on the meaning of shalom and one hand from the Priests depiction of the letter shin when pronouncing the Aaronic blessing.

[Dan56]

On 3/23/2022 at 1:29 PM, Key said:

Dan, when you seriously contemplate it, you are saying your morals' foundation is actually based outside of yourself. You base it on Scripture written by other people that gave basis to an organized religion. Basically, from what someone else told you. No different than how you think atheist find their morals. it seems.

 

 

In retrospect, perhaps none of us 'find' morals, but rather have morality instilled in us.. I believe His Holy Spirit permeates the earth, and everyone has an unction from the Holy Spirit, which provides a sense of right from wrong. That is not to say that His Spirit dwells with everyone, but that morals are transcendent, leaving us all without excuse.

 

If you never cracked open a bible or your parents never taught you that murder, theft, adultery, or lying was wrong, I still believe that we would all inherently know that these things were wrong. Morals aren't taught or learned as much as the knowledge of good and evil is automatic. Refusing to adhere to basic morals leaves many with a seared conscience, but it doesn't detract from the fact that they aren't ignorant of good from evil.