Epic Debate Over God's Existance

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, cuchulain said:

The analogy holds.  Because if God created everything he also created this spiritual factor you speak of and it operates on rules he created and he knows how you will choose in advance.  Liking or not liking a choice you don't have is irrelevant to freewill.

 

Well, I don't see it that way at all.  Sure, there are parameters too everything, but ultimately the game is not rigged, being confined to rules superimposed by a Creator doesn't eliminate individual choices. i.e; If your playing poker,  the rules don't define the outcome, God may know the cards your dealt, but he doesn't know if you'll throw a card. There are countless biblical examples of where God did not know how people would react. Its not because God is not omniscient, but that we are created after His own image and were given sovereignty over our own destiny via our own choices. We are not programmed to react, therefore our actions constitute free will, even if they are foreknown.

 

21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

And the alcoholic?  A person who has damaged or weak impulse control?  Would you forbid him to take a drink -- leave a bottle for him to find -- then punish him forever?  You understand his weakness.  You know he will fail the obedience test.  But it's worse.  Allow someone with evil intent to tell him how wonderful the bottle is.  It's the good stuff.  It will make him happy.  Would you set him up for failure -- then punish him for ever?

In the analogy, I stress poor impulse control.  Before eating the fruit, Adam and Eve did not yet understand the idea of Good and Evil.  That came after.

 

No one is punished forever because they fail to be obedient to God, they perish because they reject God. Christ was planned from the beginning to answer for sin (Genesis 3:15), so there would be no condemnation for our shortcomings. Whereby, the drunk who falls to temptation can repent and need not perish.

 

True, A&E did not know evil, but disobedience is a choice, and disobedience to God is sin (sin = evil). "Surely thou shalt die" was the 'or else', but despite the warning, they plowed ahead and chose death. But inequity aside, a Savior was promised, who bore our inequities, and those who receive him are alive in Christ.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Well, I don't see it that way at all.  Sure, there are parameters too everything, but ultimately the game is not rigged, being confined to rules superimposed by a Creator doesn't eliminate individual choices. i.e; If your playing poker,  the rules don't define the outcome, God may know the cards your dealt, but he doesn't know if you'll throw a card. There are countless biblical examples of where God did not know how people would react. Its not because God is not omniscient, but that we are created after His own image and were given sovereignty over our own destiny via our own choices. We are not programmed to react, therefore our actions constitute free will, even if they are foreknown.

 

 

No one is punished forever because they fail to be obedient to God, they perish because they reject God. Christ was planned from the beginning to answer for sin (Genesis 3:15), so there would be no condemnation for our shortcomings. Whereby, the drunk who falls to temptation can repent and need not perish.

 

True, A&E did not know evil, but disobedience is a choice, and disobedience to God is sin (sin = evil). "Surely thou shalt die" was the 'or else', but despite the warning, they plowed ahead and chose death. But inequity aside, a Savior was promised, who bore our inequities, and those who receive him are alive in Christ.

 

 

At this point, I'm simply arguing with your beliefs and your faith.  I'm done.

 

[Key]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Well, I don't see it that way at all.  Sure, there are parameters too everything, but ultimately the game is not rigged, being confined to rules superimposed by a Creator doesn't eliminate individual choices. i.e; If your playing poker,  the rules don't define the outcome, God may know the cards your dealt, but he doesn't know if you'll throw a card. There are countless biblical examples of where God did not know how people would react. Its not because God is not omniscient, but that we are created after His own image and were given sovereignty over our own destiny via our own choices. We are not programmed to react, therefore our actions constitute free will, even if they are foreknown.

 

 

No one is punished forever because they fail to be obedient to God, they perish because they reject God. Christ was planned from the beginning to answer for sin (Genesis 3:15), so there would be no condemnation for our shortcomings. Whereby, the drunk who falls to temptation can repent and need not perish.

 

True, A&E did not know evil, but disobedience is a choice, and disobedience to God is sin (sin = evil). "Surely thou shalt die" was the 'or else', but despite the warning, they plowed ahead and chose death. But inequity aside, a Savior was promised, who bore our inequities, and those who receive him are alive in Christ.

Actually, he does. We don't.

Part of the definition of being an "all knowing" God, means just that.

[Dan56]

9 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

At this point, I'm simply arguing with your beliefs and your faith.  I'm done

 

Probably a good idea.. Doesn't make much sense to argue about a book you don't even believe, let alone understand. 

 

4 hours ago, Key said:

Actually, he does. We don't.

Part of the definition of being an "all knowing" God, means just that.

 

I disagree of course.. Why did God stop Abraham from sacrificing Isaac just in the nick of time? "And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:12). Doesn't sound like 'all knowing' to me?

 

Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they 'did not come into his mind' (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked, it repented Him that He had made man and grieved Him at His heart (Gen. 6:5-7), God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God searches the hearts to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He discovers deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

The 1,522 "if's" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His mind and His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will.

God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will.

Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents, He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

 

God is infinite, but there's no definitive loop. You may be over thinking it. "Free will" and "Set in Stone" don't mix. Being made in the image of God, we make choices, we aren't programmed robots. For example; sin = death, but God intervened, so sin can be erased, therefore what would have been no longer needs to be. God chose not to control us, so our independent decisions are unknown, God is not omniscient in that respect. God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), but many will perish, God is not omnipotent in that respect. God knows the beginning from the end because He is the beginning and He will determine the end, but every choice we make in the interim isn't determined or known beforehand.

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Probably a good idea.. Doesn't make much sense to argue about a book you don't even believe, let alone understand. 

 

 

.

 

 

I see that you are as gracious as always.

 

I have gotten to the point where I can't take the Bible seriously, long enough, even to argue about it.  I don't care any more.

 

I'm really, really tired of arguing with you.  A man who cares nothing about reason, facts or reality.  I don't care what you believe.  Much joy may your faith bring you.  I don't care.

 

Argue with someone else.  I'm done.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Key]

20 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Probably a good idea.. Doesn't make much sense to argue about a book you don't even believe, let alone understand. 

 

 

I disagree of course.. Why did God stop Abraham from sacrificing Isaac just in the nick of time? "And he said, "Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me" (Genesis 22:12). Doesn't sound like 'all knowing' to me?

 

Several times in Scripture God Himself said of certain events that they 'did not come into his mind' (Jeremiah 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked, it repented Him that He had made man and grieved Him at His heart (Gen. 6:5-7), God did not know whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe Him (Ex.4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Deut. 8:2, 16). God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as it did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

God searches the hearts to find whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). He discovers deep things (Job. 12:22); He tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chr. 28:9; Rom.8:27; 1 Cor. 2;10; Rev. 2:23), proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

The 1,522 "if's" and the many hundreds of conditional requirements of God throughout Scripture are sufficient proof that God does not cause all acts and events by His own decrees, and are sufficient proof that He changes His mind and His own dealings with men as they conform or refuse to conform to His will.

God goes Himself, or He sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other organization would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions can be taken accordingly. Examples of such agency constantly reporting to God can be found in all these passages (Gen. 18:21-22; Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 1:14; 2:2; Rev. 1:1; 7:1-3; 8:2-13; 9:1; 14:6-20; 15:1-8; 16:1-21; 18:21; 22:6, 8-9, 16).

The 6,468 commands in the Bible regulating man as to his part in the eternal plan of God, and setting forth his responsibility to God and man, the 1,260 promises and blessings, rewards or loss of rewards, the hundreds of warnings, curses, blessings and dealings of God on the basis of conformity to His will.

Such facts and many others make it clear that God does not know from all eternity what any one man will do, much less what different types and dispositions of men will do under various circumstances that are not yet present to deal with.

There is not one statement of Scripture in the entire Bible saying God knows or even would like to know all acts and particular events of all the vast creations of free moral agents from all eternity past; or that He has fixed decrees choosing and predestinating all thoughts, acts, and deeds of free wills from all eternity past to all eternity future.

God's plan will not fail and it is known from the beginning to the end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth He has power to do, but concerning the free moral actions of free moral agents, He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan are blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to the plan. It is the plan that is known from beginning to the end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. It is left up to each person to choose His own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be saved that is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

 

God is infinite, but there's no definitive loop. You may be over thinking it. "Free will" and "Set in Stone" don't mix. Being made in the image of God, we make choices, we aren't programmed robots. For example; sin = death, but God intervened, so sin can be erased, therefore what would have been no longer needs to be. God chose not to control us, so our independent decisions are unknown, God is not omniscient in that respect. God doesn't want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9), but many will perish, God is not omnipotent in that respect. God knows the beginning from the end because He is the beginning and He will determine the end, but every choice we make in the interim isn't determined or known beforehand.

 

 

Of course, we will differ in opinion.

Abraham set to sacrifice his son was known by God, but not Abraham. That is why He stopped Him. He was indicating to Abraham to be safe in the knowledge from that point, (now), God knew of his devotion. So, it referred to Abraham's knowledge, not God's. So must all other circumstances be similarly be defined.

For God to have said that He was the same in the beginning as He is in the present, and will be in the future would be a lie if He didn't have knowledge of everything and had to learn of decisions as they were made. If He only knew the possible outcomes, He would have to change according to each, thus could not be the "same" at all times.

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I'm really, really tired of arguing with you.  A man who cares nothing about reason, facts or reality.  I don't care what you believe.  Much joy may your faith bring you.  I don't care.

 

Argue with someone else.  I'm done.

 

 

I wasn't arguing, just engaging in a friendly conversation. My simple point was that since we make decisions everyday, I believe we have free will. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our decisions has no bearing on our choices. To me, that is reasonable and a reality. Knowing what someone will do or might do does not negate the fact that they are independently deciding for themselves. Perhaps your tired of arguing because there's no logical argument in response to that simple fact.

 

1 hour ago, Key said:

Of course, we will differ in opinion.

Abraham set to sacrifice his son was known by God, but not Abraham. That is why He stopped Him. He was indicating to Abraham to be safe in the knowledge from that point, (now), God knew of his devotion. So, it referred to Abraham's knowledge, not God's. So must all other circumstances be similarly be defined.

For God to have said that He was the same in the beginning as He is in the present, and will be in the future would be a lie if He didn't have knowledge of everything and had to learn of decisions as they were made. If He only knew the possible outcomes, He would have to change according to each, thus could not be the "same" at all times.

 

I agree that God is unchanging in character & principles, but He has had a change of heart in response to what people do and don't do. I believe God interacts with us in real time, and his actions are ever changing in accordance to what every individual does or fails to do. God made a judgement against Israel due to David's sin, but He relented when David repented.

 

God said, "Neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin" (Jeremiah 32:35). God searches the hearts of men because we have free will. 

 

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9 ). We know that many will perish, so the will of the Father does not override the choices of the unrepentant.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

21 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I wasn't arguing, just engaging in a friendly conversation. My simple point was that since we make decisions everyday, I believe we have free will. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our decisions has no bearing on our choices. To me, that is reasonable and a reality. Knowing what someone will do or might do does not negate the fact that they are independently deciding for themselves. Perhaps your tired of arguing because there's no logical argument in response to that simple fact.

 

 

I agree that God is unchanging in character & principles, but He has had a change of heart in response to what people do and don't do. I believe God interacts with us in real time, and his actions are ever changing in accordance to what every individual does or fails to do. God made a judgement against Israel due to David's sin, but He relented when David repented.

 

God said, "Neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin" (Jeremiah 32:35). God searches the hearts of men because we have free will. 

 

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9 ). We know that many will perish, so the will of the Father does not override the choices of the unrepentant.

 

 

 

 

 

[Key]

On 7/26/2020 at 1:38 PM, Dan56 said:

 

I wasn't arguing, just engaging in a friendly conversation. My simple point was that since we make decisions everyday, I believe we have free will. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our decisions has no bearing on our choices. To me, that is reasonable and a reality. Knowing what someone will do or might do does not negate the fact that they are independently deciding for themselves. Perhaps your tired of arguing because there's no logical argument in response to that simple fact.

 

 

I agree that God is unchanging in character & principles, but He has had a change of heart in response to what people do and don't do. I believe God interacts with us in real time, and his actions are ever changing in accordance to what every individual does or fails to do. God made a judgement against Israel due to David's sin, but He relented when David repented.

 

God said, "Neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin" (Jeremiah 32:35). God searches the hearts of men because we have free will. 

 

"The Lord is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance". (2 Peter 3:9 ). We know that many will perish, so the will of the Father does not override the choices of the unrepentant.

 

 

 

You do understand that this is a contradiction. To stay in character and principle, "unchanging", there can be no change of heart, for that changes principles, and thus character. Further, to make such changes, He would not be the same as He was from the beginning.

[Pete]

Dan likes the bible and quotes from it. It is meaningless unless one agrees with his belief and his interpretation of the bronze age script.  The only evidence for there being a god or had anything to do with the book comes from the book. Any logic that does not take as read in the book will not accept there is any proof that there is a god or the bible is anything more than the uttering of the bronze age perception of things. 

Like the saying goes - you don't have to be mad to believe this but it certainly helps.

I would be interested if there was a shadow  of evidence that did not require accepting the book, but alas there is not.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Dan likes the bible and quotes from it. It is meaningless unless one agrees with his belief and his interpretation of the bronze age script.  The only evidence for there being a god or had anything to do with the book comes from the book. Any logic that does not take as read in the book will not accept there is any proof that there is a god or the bible is anything more than the uttering of the bronze age perception of things. 

Like the saying goes - you don't have to be mad to believe this but it certainly helps.

I would be interested if there was a shadow  of evidence that did not require accepting the book, but alas there is not.

 

 

All true.  The question is -- Now what?  Argue about it forever?  Whether we are passionate for or against the Bible -- we are being passionate about the Bible.  I think it is the passions that are keeping Biblical religion alive -- for or against.  Time to let go.  Time to release the passions.  Time to be free.  It's not worth it.  In my opinion.

 

 

 

[Pete]

I gave up using a capital letter for the bible ages ago as I did not believe it merits recognition. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

I gave up using a capital letter for the bible ages ago as I did not believe it merits recognition. 

 

 

It's a convention.  Like giving God the big G.  Other books get captialized.  The Tao Te Ching.  The Bhagavad Gita.  The Koran.  Dracula.  Moby Dick.  It's not about respect.  It's common usage.  IMO

 

 

 

 

Edited July 30, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

14 hours ago, Key said:

You do understand that this is a contradiction. To stay in character and principle, "unchanging", there can be no change of heart, for that changes principles, and thus character. Further, to make such changes, He would not be the same as He was from the beginning.

 

I don't think so.. The biblical God is interactive, not stagnant. He is merciful and forgiving, and that is part of His character. God does not change His principles, but His reaction to us alters in accordance to how we change. In other words, God may forgive one person but not another, not because God is inconsistent, but because one person may repent while another won't.

 

13 hours ago, Pete said:

Dan likes the bible and quotes from it. It is meaningless unless one agrees with his belief and his interpretation of the bronze age script.  The only evidence for there being a god or had anything to do with the book comes from the book. Any logic that does not take as read in the book will not accept there is any proof that there is a god or the bible is anything more than the uttering of the bronze age perception of things. 

Like the saying goes - you don't have to be mad to believe this but it certainly helps.

I would be interested if there was a shadow  of evidence that did not require accepting the book, but alas there is not.

 

I believe the bible, so of course I quote it in order to substantiate what I believe. I personally find lots of evidence for God, but I suspect no evidence would satisfy you. You've simply chosen not to believe because you detest the biblical God. That's partly why we're called by faith, God wants your trust and love, and only faith can demonstrate that. Proof of God would not relinquish your resentment towards Him..

[cuchulain]

Ah yes.  Now since you have no actual facts to back up your point of view there must be a deficiency in us making it so we won't believe your obvious evidence.  It's everyone else isn't it dan

[Pete]

There is as much evidence that you have Dan as there is for Venusians living on venus. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Cuchulain and Pete -- you're actually arguing with Dan about his beliefs?  Alright.  Have fun with that.

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 7/30/2020 at 11:24 AM, cuchulain said:

Ah yes.  Now since you have no actual facts to back up your point of view there must be a deficiency in us making it so we won't believe your obvious evidence.  It's everyone else isn't it dan

 

There's no factual proof, but plenty of evidence, and that evidence is sufficient for me. I accept it because it has convinced me, but not everyone can or will believe what can't be physically demonstrated, and some still wouldn't believe their own eyes even if it were.

 

12 hours ago, Pete said:

There is as much evidence that you have Dan as there is for Venusians living on venus. 

 

A thousand years before Christ, the Psalmist wrote that Romans soldiers would gamble for the cloak of the Messiah at his crucifixion.. Just a coincidence to you, but a divine prophecy to me. When someone describes something like that in detail, I don't see how it could be chalked-off as a lucky guess.

[cuchulain]

I've noticed when you cite prophecy you never quote word for word.  Is that because it's so easy to see it's not as specific as you seem to believe?

[Dan56]

22 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I've noticed when you cite prophecy you never quote word for word.  Is that because it's so easy to see it's not as specific as you seem to believe?

 

I simply referred to something that I've previously and accurately posted before. No sense in being redundant, especially with people who get annoyed with ongoing biblical references.

 

"They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture" (Psalm 22:18).

"And they parted his raiment, and cast lots" (Luke 23:34)... "And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots" (Matthew 27:35). So that's the word for word prophecy and its recorded new testament fruition. Sounds pretty specific to me!