Do They Really Believe That?

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

Is there any idea -- any idea at all -- so silly or stupid -- that can't be taken on faith?

 

 

 

No, that is why it's an illogical basis to build a debate on. Dan cannot prove his god or that the bible is accurate with what happened but wants us to accept it "just so" , so we can join him in his realms of fantasy.  I think you hit the nail on the head when you said "Dan why do you hate reality so?"

 

[cuchulain]

Obviously the complete lack of evidence or proof...is proof that god his himself perfectly and so must exist exactly like Dan thinks 😂

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

Obviously the complete lack of evidence or proof...is proof that god his himself perfectly and so must exist exactly like Dan thinks 😂

 

 

 

Without turning to Belief or Scripture -- what do we actually know about God.  Nothing.  What is there about God -- which can be demonstrated to be true?  Or false?  Nothing.  Not even God's existence, can be demonstrated to be a fact.  We have no objective, verifiable information about God.  Neither can we come up with a working definition of God.  What are we even talking about?  Belief and mythology.  Nothing more.

 

A god which can not be discerned, detected or demonstrated to exist, is irrelevant and meaningless.  Even if the god exists, it doesn't matter.

 

I have gone past Atheism.  I am an Apatheist.  I don't care any more.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

20 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Environmental or hereditary is the argument at hand.  If Adam was a creature of environment and God designed the environment and is perfect in knowledge, he would have been able to know beforehand what Adam would do.

If it's hereditary, and God designed his genes, he would have been able to know what Adam was going to do.

It's like laying down a piece of your kids favorite candy on the table, telling them not to eat it, and leaving them in the room with it and their other parent who tells them it's ok.  Worse, you knew that the other parent would and didn't warn the kids not to listen to them .

 

Whether or not God knew what A&E would do is irrelevant, they had free will and chose to be disobedient.  I understand what your saying, but the decision was ultimately A&E's choice. I don't think the environment made them do it, nor do I think we are genetically predisposed to sin. We were created with the intellectual capacity to override our natural inclinations and environment.    

 

18 hours ago, Pete said:

It seems to me that faith is believing in something that has no logical basis of existence, you cannot see or sense with your senses or conceive with the mind, and smackes against all known laws of reality.  It cannot be be proven by logic or science. That is not logical in whatever way you hack it Dan.

 

For something to be a science, it has to be at its core , based on repeated empirical study. Logic is not based on this. Logic is rational, not empirical. Reality is subjective & logic won't cover every thing unless you know everything, which is kind of paradox in itself.

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Without turning to Belief or Scripture -- what do we actually know about God.  Nothing.  What is there about God -- which can be demonstrated to be true?  Or false?  Nothing.  Not even God's existence, can be demonstrated to be a fact.  We have no objective, verifiable information about God.  Neither can we come up with a working definition of God.  What are we even talking about?  Belief and mythology.  Nothing more.

 

A god which can not be discerned, detected or demonstrated to exist, is irrelevant and meaningless.  Even if the god exists, it doesn't matter.

 

I have gone past Atheism.  I am an Apatheist.  I don't care any more.

 

 

So your saying that if we throw out the book that tells us all about God, we would have no information about God? Without the book that gives us a working definition of God and the details that let us discern God, we would know nothing about God... I agree...What amazes me is that the same could be said for all the science books.. Y'all don't know how you got here, but your convince you weren't created, with absolutely no facts to back it up. You have faith too, but its faith in what you think. The problem with that is that you don't know anything. People of faith simply believe that your consciousness (spiritual energy) was transferred into your body at birth, death just sends it home. Its not so far fetched.

 

Thoughts are energy and energy never dies. Even science recognizes that; "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.” (Einstein).

Albert was half right, energy could not self-create, everything has a cause... And that's where science hits a dead end street and faith begins.

God created our energy, our spirit is the intellect of our soul, and that spiritual energy continues to exist after our physical body dies. Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy, your consciousness is pure energy, and even an idea or thought is a packet of energy. The only question is; Is this energy that encapsulates your physical body & brain transformed or transferred after death? I believe consciousness is a non-physical form of energy to begin with, so upon physical death, it simply returns from where it came. Only the source of energy (Creator) can permanently destroy energy (souls)... Wait a minute, I guess that makes Einstein 100% wrong

 

 

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

So your saying that if we throw out the book that tells us all about God, we would have no information about God? Without the book that gives us a working definition of God and the details that let us discern God, we would know nothing about God... I agree...What amazes me is that the same could be said for all the science books..  [...]

 

That simply isn't true Dan; if the bible and all knowledge of your god vanished today it is highly unlikely that any of it would come back in its present form. But if all science knowledge and books vanished today then - eventually - a big part of it all would come back in exactly the same form (because they are facts) : 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera.

Edited February 1, 2020 by RevBogovac
corrected typos

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

So your saying that if we throw out the book that tells us all about God, we would have no information about God? Without the book that gives us a working definition of God and the details that let us discern God, we would know nothing about God... I agree...What amazes me is that the same could be said for all the science books.. Y'all don't know how you got here, but your convince you weren't created, with absolutely no facts to back it up. You have faith too, but its faith in what you think. The problem with that is that you don't know anything. People of faith simply believe that your consciousness (spiritual energy) was transferred into your body at birth, death just sends it home. Its not so far fetched.

 

Thoughts are energy and energy never dies. Even science recognizes that; "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another.” (Einstein).

Albert was half right, energy could not self-create, everything has a cause... And that's where science hits a dead end street and faith begins.

God created our energy, our spirit is the intellect of our soul, and that spiritual energy continues to exist after our physical body dies. Your body is energy, your mind is energy, your soul is energy, your consciousness is pure energy, and even an idea or thought is a packet of energy. The only question is; Is this energy that encapsulates your physical body & brain transformed or transferred after death? I believe consciousness is a non-physical form of energy to begin with, so upon physical death, it simply returns from where it came. Only the source of energy (Creator) can permanently destroy energy (souls)... Wait a minute, I guess that makes Einstein 100% wrong

 

 

 

Y'all don't know how you got here, but your convince you weren't created, with absolutely no facts to back it up.

Back to Creationism again?  No answer, is better than a crap answer.  

 

 

I believe

Back to your beliefs again.     

 

, I guess that makes Einstein 100% wrong

Keep guessing.                           

 

 

 

[Dan56]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

That simply isn't true Dan; if the bible and all knowledge of your god vanished today it is highly unlikely that any of it would come back in its present form. But if all science knowledge and books vanished today then - eventually - a big part of it all would come back in exactly the same form (because they are facts) : 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera.

 

Anyone who believes the bible would disagree, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8). If it were an uninspired book of fables, you would be correct. 

 

42 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Y'all don't know how you got here, but your convince you weren't created, with absolutely no facts to back it up.

Back to Creationism again?  No answer, is better than a crap answer.  

 

 

I believe

Back to your beliefs again.     

 

, I guess that makes Einstein 100% wrong

Keep guessing.                           

 

 

 

 

No answer is good for nothing.. When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap..

Yes, back to what I believe... And yes, back to your believing nothing.. Being content living in a void hole of nothingness doesn't appeal to most folks,

 

[Pete]

Dan you have not proved anything.  We never said throw out the bible. It's just that you have as much evidence that it is true as you have for your god  to be true and that is nothing.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

46 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Anyone who believes the bible would disagree, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8). If it were an uninspired book of fables, you would be correct. 

 

 

No answer is good for nothing.. When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap..

Yes, back to what I believe... And yes, back to your believing nothing.. Being content living in a void hole of nothingness doesn't appeal to most folks,

 

 

 

 

Creationism is crap. 

 

Knowing when I don't know, is honesty.

 

Pretend knowledge is illusory.  It might make you happy, but it's still illusory.  

 

Why do you hate reality?

 

 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, Pete said:

Dan you have not proved anything.  We never said throw out the bible. It's just that you have as much evidence that it is true as you have for your god  to be true and that is nothing.  

 

 

 

 

Yes.   

 

[RevBogovac]

3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

That simply isn't true Dan; if the bible and all knowledge of your god vanished today it is highly unlikely that any of it would come back in its present form. But if all science knowledge and books vanished today then - eventually - a big part of it all would come back in exactly the same form (because they are facts) : 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera.

 

37 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

Anyone who believes the bible would disagree, "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" (Hebrews 13:8). If it were an uninspired book of fables, you would be correct. [...]

 

No buts, no ifs Dan. Please read (my statement carefully). As I said: it is "highly unlikely". Your quotes with their circular statements prove nothing while: " 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera." Facts. Reality. 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

53 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

No buts, no ifs Dan. Please read (my statement carefully). As I said: it is "highly unlikely". Your quotes with their circular statements prove nothing while: " 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera." Facts. Reality. 

 

 

 

 

 

Good.     

 

 

[Dan56]

6 hours ago, Pete said:

Dan you have not proved anything.  We never said throw out the bible. It's just that you have as much evidence that it is true as you have for your god  to be true and that is nothing.  

 

I'm really just stating why it makes sense to me, and of course its received by faith.. What 's puzzling is that you all rule out creation, but have no better answers of how everything magically came into being. You just can't scientifically prove a Supreme Spiritual Being via physical measurements, so science will always be a dead end street on that topic. Perhaps 'belief' has always been a remedy for the unknown, science says that from nothing, nothing comes, and yet here we all are?  

 

6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Creationism is crap. 

 

 

And I'll repeat, "When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap.." You've reached a conclusion based on absolutely nothing. When you have some facts, I'll rethink your reality. In the meantime, consider that there may be more to life than what you can see, touch, and hear. I suspect that if there were absolutely no miracles mentioned in the bible, you might actually find it more credible? But probably not. 

 

5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

No buts, no ifs Dan. Please read (my statement carefully). As I said: it is "highly unlikely". Your quotes with their circular statements prove nothing while: " 1 + 1 will still be 2, gravity would still pull objects towards the earth, the earth would still be revolving around the sun et cetera." Facts. Reality.

 

 

The facts and reality you mention have always been observable, so of course throwing out all current science books would eventually be replaced with new books stating the same facts. Its confusing history with observable facts. Yes its true that trees grow and trees have leaves.  Facts. Reality. These things can be confirmed. But the recorded past must be taken with a degree of faith. Did Christ live, die, and resurrect? If so, I believe the bible would be unchanged if history could repeat itself. Unfortunately, that's not an experiment that can ever be conducted. With the inability to go back in time, the past is not repeatable, but I suspect if we could, we would still know WW2 happened, Lincoln was our 16th president, and Christ was crucified. But I'll agree that fabricated myths would likely dissipate or radically change.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

29 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I'm really just stating why it makes sense to me, and of course its received by faith.. What 's puzzling is that you all rule out creation, but have no better answers of how everything magically came into being. You just can't scientifically prove a Supreme Spiritual Being via physical measurements, so science will always be a dead end street on that topic. Perhaps 'belief' has always been a remedy for the unknown, science says that from nothing, nothing comes, and yet here we all are?  

 

 

And I'll repeat, "When you can't prove an answer wrong, its ignorant to refer to it as crap.." You've reached a conclusion based on absolutely nothing. When you have some facts, I'll rethink your reality. In the meantime, consider that there may be more to life than what you can see, touch, and hear. I suspect that if there were absolutely no miracles mentioned in the bible, you might actually find it more credible? But probably not. 

 

 

The facts and reality you mention have always been observable, so of course throwing out all current science books would eventually be replaced with new books stating the same facts. Its confusing history with observable facts. Yes its true that trees grow and trees have leaves.  Facts. Reality. These things can be confirmed. But the recorded past must be taken with a degree of faith. Did Christ live, die, and resurrect? If so, I believe the bible would be unchanged if history could repeat itself. Unfortunately, that's not an experiment that can ever be conducted. With the inability to go back in time, the past is not repeatable, but I suspect if we could, we would still know WW2 happened, Lincoln was our 16th president, and Christ was crucified. But I'll agree that fabricated myths would likely dissipate or radically change.  

 

 

 

Creationism has nothing going for it -- except that it's in Genesis.  A book of mythology.

 

It is for the Creationists, to demonstrate that Creationism is true.  They have not done so.  Until they do so -- Creationism is crap.  Or do you really expect me to take Creationism, on faith?

 

If Creationism were true, it's truth would have been verified by now.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

47 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

 

 

Duplicated in error.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

As I understand. Everything did not come from nothing. It came from energy. The more concentrated the wave the more matter is formed until it reaches a mass for the big bang. Another theory is that, our universe collided with another universe and that concentrated the wave of energy. 

Either way , it makes more sense then genesis and the creation of days before the sun was formed. The light for the night "the moon" is not because the moon gives off light but because it poorly reflects the suns light. Then there is the 13+ billion light years of space to light the night sky. Most whom we cannot see or affected by any possible radiant light. Genesis is  nonsense.

Edited February 1, 2020 by Pete

[Dan56]

4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Creationism has nothing going for it -- except that it's in Genesis.  A book of mythology.

 

It is for the Creationists, to demonstrate that Creationism is true.  They have not done so.  Until they do so -- Creationism is crap.  Or do you really expect me to take Creationism, on faith?

 

If Creationism were true, it's truth would have been verified by now

 

There are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself. Something originating from nothing is an unexplained concept that's hard to swallow. Do you really expect me to take that riddle on faith? If something coming from nothing were true, its truth would have been verified by now. You see, when the shoe is on the other foot, your reality has fewer answers than mine. 

 

3 hours ago, Pete said:

As I understand. Everything did not come from nothing. It came from energy. The more concentrated the wave the more matter is formed until it reaches a mass for the big bang. Another theory is that, our universe collided with another universe and that concentrated the wave of energy. 

Either way , it makes more sense then genesis and the creation of days before the sun was formed. The light for the night "the moon" is not because the moon gives off light but because it poorly reflects the suns light. Then there is the 13+ billion light years of space to light the night sky. Most whom we cannot see or affected by any possible radiant light. Genesis is  nonsense.

 

So where did this wave of energy come from? Could God have been the cause? The Big Bang theory is not a theory of the creation of the universe, it just traces the evolution of the cosmos to its earliest moments. The moon (reflective light) is still light, Genesis doesn't claim it produces light. God told Abraham that the stars in the heavens could not be numbered (Genesis 15:5), so its in agreement with you regarding the expanse of space., but you claim Genesis is nonsense?

 

Hubert Spencer gave the world five scientific principles by which man may study the unknown. They are time, force, energy, space, and matter.. Moses, by inspiration, gave us those scientific principles in Genesis 1:1

 

• "In the beginning" --time;
• "God"-- force;
• "created" -- energy;
• "the heavens" --space;
• "and the earth" -- matter.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

There are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself. Something originating from nothing is an unexplained concept that's hard to swallow. Do you really expect me to take that riddle on faith? If something coming from nothing were true, its truth would have been verified by now. You see, when the shoe is on the other foot, your reality has fewer answers than mine. 

 

 

So where did this wave of energy come from? Could God have been the cause? The Big Bang theory is not a theory of the creation of the universe, it just traces the evolution of the cosmos to its earliest moments. The moon (reflective light) is still light, Genesis doesn't claim it produces light. God told Abraham that the stars in the heavens could not be numbered (Genesis 15:5), so its in agreement with you regarding the expanse of space., but you claim Genesis is nonsense?

 

Hubert Spencer gave the world five scientific principles by which man may study the unknown. They are time, force, energy, space, and matter.. Moses, by inspiration, gave us those scientific principles in Genesis 1:1

 

• "In the beginning" --time;
• "God"-- force;
• "created" -- energy;
• "the heavens" --space;
• "and the earth" -- matter.

 

 

 

Natural Process.     

 

 

[Pete]

10 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

There are only two possible solutions to the riddle of origins. Either Someone made the world, or the world made itself. Something originating from nothing is an unexplained concept that's hard to swallow. Do you really expect me to take that riddle on faith? If something coming from nothing were true, its truth would have been verified by now. You see, when the shoe is on the other foot, your reality has fewer answers than mine. 

 

 

So where did this wave of energy come from? Could God have been the cause? The Big Bang theory is not a theory of the creation of the universe, it just traces the evolution of the cosmos to its earliest moments. The moon (reflective light) is still light, Genesis doesn't claim it produces light. God told Abraham that the stars in the heavens could not be numbered (Genesis 15:5), so its in agreement with you regarding the expanse of space., but you claim Genesis is nonsense?

 

Hubert Spencer gave the world five scientific principles by which man may study the unknown. They are time, force, energy, space, and matter.. Moses, by inspiration, gave us those scientific principles in Genesis 1:1

 

• "In the beginning" --time;
• "God"-- force;
• "created" -- energy;
• "the heavens" --space;
• "and the earth" -- matter.

Dan your playing with words. You do not understand science. Gen 1 is not scientific.  "Matter - The earth"? If the Earth was a pimple on my backside the universe would still be much bigger than our galaxy. It was not about us. Observation tells us so. We are an accident of nature in a universe bigger than our full comprehension. Gen 1 is nuts.