Do They Really Believe That?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 2/10/2020 at 3:10 PM, Pete said:

[...] I have switched to ulc intertribal to continue the debate. Please feel free to join us. They have mods there and science can be discussed from an agnostic/atheist/scientific perspective. 

 

Do you have a link?

 

[Pete]

3 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Do you have a link?

 

https://www.ulctribal.com/forum/showthread.php/18540-Sites-for-agnostic-atheist-sites-for-friendly-talk

However, since Dan has backed off a bit things look more possible here.

[RevBogovac]

2 minutes ago, Pete said:

https://www.ulctribal.com/forum/showthread.php/18540-Sites-for-agnostic-atheist-sites-for-friendly-talk

However, since Dan has backed off a bit things look more possible here.

 

Thank you. Yes, I agree... but it's good to have alternatives... 

[Pete]

I know some Christians had a separate site to discuss what happens here. I don't know if it's still there. There is nothing wrong in us doing the same.

Ps// Just checked- their site is still running.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Pete

[Pete]

14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

 

Interesting. For me to say your open minded to the possibility of any god but you don't see any evidence for there being one and that's why your agnostic and not atheist is for me a valid position. I definitely don't believe in the biblical god because for me it makes no sense to me. Now I may ponder that there is some life form out in space presently pondering that there maybe other life forms In space doing the same thing. I have no evidence for that but I am open to the possibility.  Now, I am open to the possibility of a god (just not as described by the bible), now is that fair to say I am being ridiculous as Ricky suggests?

[Pete]

i kinda go with this vid. I am also.polyatheist, but see myself as agnostic.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Interesting. For me to say your open minded to the possibility of any god but you don't see any evidence for there being one and that's why your agnostic and not atheist is for me a valid position. I definitely don't believe in the biblical god because for me it makes no sense to me. Now I may ponder that there is some life form out in space presently pondering that there maybe other life forms In space doing the same thing. I have no evidence for that but I am open to the possibility.  Now, I am open to the possibility of a god (just not as described by the bible), now is that fair to say I am being ridiculous as Ricky suggests?

 

 

I went back and listened.  The part that you're asking about starts at 7:07.

 

The question that Rickey is asking about is -- Do you believe in God?  This is an Atheist perspective.  To this type of Atheist, the answer is a binary.  It's either -- Yes.  I believe -- Or it's -- No.  I don't believe.

 

Agnostic is a knowledge position.  Different from belief.  Do you know that God exists?  This is why Rickey asks the question  --.  Am I wearing a red jump suit?  The Agnostic position -- I don't know. -- is reasonable.  Now he changes the question.  Am I wearing a red jump suit, that created the Universe?  In this manner, when he asks -- Do you believe in God?  He is not asking what you know.  He's asking what you believe.

 

Part of the confusion might also be how we are defining God.  Rickey is taking his definition -- I think -- as how Christianity, Islam and Hinduism define God.  Those were the parts of the world he cited earlier.  You are taking a more abstract, philosophic approach to defining God.

 

I think that the God you have doubts about -- is not the same God -- that Rickey does not believe in.

 

When I was new to this board, I advocated for Pantheism.  I came to the conclusion, that this type of definition for God, was more trouble than it was worth.  I decided to go with Atheism, for the simple reason that Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus had no idea at all what I was talking about -- and I got tired of explaining myself.  I suspect you are creating the same problem for yourself with your own, personal understanding of God.  I an not suggesting that you change your actual beliefs.  I am suggesting that your use of the God word, is more trouble than it's worth.

 

Of course, I have gone on to the Apatheism label.  My actual beliefs have not changed.  I got tired of arguing the distinctions, between Belief and Knowing.  I don't care; is a lot less complicated.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

i kinda go with this vid. I am also.polyatheist, but see myself as agnostic.

 

 

 

Did you catch his comments on Deism?  That it's not relevant to daily life, so pointless.  I think we can add  Apatheism to his combination label.

 

Anyway, he's right.  Agnostic Atheist is a perfectly good label, if we are using more than one word.

 

Popular usage is where the problem comes in.  Richard Dawkins, came up with the "Dawkins Scale".

 

The scale is from one to seven.

One is absolute certitude that God exists.

Seven is absolute certitude that God does not exist.

Four gives equal weight to both possibilities.

Dawkins, well known for his Atheism, places himself on that scale as 6.9.

 

I think that this type of thing creates a lot of needless confusion.  The damage is done.  We have to live with it.

 

Of course, there are other usages.  Many from religious people.  Some misuse words like Atheist and Agnostic, because they are truly incapable, of understanding the distinctions.  Others misuse these words out of malice.  Some of these people, are stupid, ignorant and vicious.

 

People who don't believe -- or don't know -- also misuse these words.  Again, the Dawkins scale.  Most people who misuse these words are far less educated.

 

Which brings us to political usage.  When I'm answering a survey question, I go with Atheist.  That's the wrong time for hair splitting subtlety.  The pious need to know that we are here -- and having five or ten different words for saying -- We don't believe -- doesn't help anything.  There are times when the religions of the world -- all of them -- need a resounding 4Q.  

 

Hmmm.  Did I say that out loud?    😜 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

Maybe the word God is wrong or strong because I don't know either whether there is an actual God or not. Say they created a mini universe in the Hadron collided then they would be its creator but not God's. Can I say we don't live in a huge Hadron collided then I just don't know. It maybe very unlikely but again I cannot completely write it off. All of this maybe fantasy and even pointless but lots of yesterday's fantasy is today's reality. I will stick with agnostic on the atheist perspective. Does all this matter- well no.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

58 minutes ago, Pete said:

Maybe the word God is wrong or strong because I don't know either whether there is an actual God or not. Say they created a mini universe in the Hadron collided then they would be its creator but not God's. Can I say we don't live in a huge Hadron collided then I just don't know. It maybe very unlikely but again I cannot completely write it off. All of this maybe fantasy and even pointless but lots of yesterday's fantasy is today's reality. I will stick with agnostic on the atheist perspective. Does all this matter- well no.

 

 

Actually, yes.  It is important.  There is nothing wrong with searching for the truth.  That is the way of science.  What the question is not -- is urgent.

 

In my own life -- I'm much more clear about what I don't believe -- than what I do believe.  Often, I find that this is enough.

 

It starts with a few basic questions.  What do I believe?  What do I really believe?  Not what I should believe.  What do I actually believe?  Why do I believe that?  Do I have a good reason, to believe this is true?  What is the evidence that this is true?

 

A variant.  What do I know?  Why do I think that I know?  Do I really know?  If the answer is -- I don't know -- you're way ahead of the people who think they know -- when they don't know.

 

In the end, there is no gaining the whole truth.  On the other hand, it cuts out so much that is false.  The Bible.  The God of the Bible.  The religions built upon both.  In religious terms, it is piercing the veil of illusion.  I think it counts for a lot.

 

Truth and Reality are not up for a vote.  Just because a lot of people believe something, does not make it true.

 

Just because a set of beliefs is ancient, does not make any of it true.

 

I do think it better to have no answer -- than an answer which is clearly false.  That is the Agnostic Way.  At least, my understanding of it.

 

   

 

An additional thought.  This accusation that the pious make -- that we are not open minded.  That we are closed minded to their truth.

 

It is good to be open minded.  Not so open minded that the brain falls out.

 

   

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2020 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Pete]

I sympathise a bit to the Humanist position and a bit to the atheist position, but mostly to the agnostic position. When I said it does not matter, I was referring to whether there is a god  or not as it cannot be proved and has no influence either way.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

21 minutes ago, Pete said:

I sympathise a bit to the Humanist position and a bit to the atheist position, but mostly to the agnostic position. When I said it does not matter, I was referring to whether there is a god  or not as it cannot be proved and has no influence either way.

 

 

Yes.  That is Agnosticism.  That is also Apatheism.  For me, the difference is attitude.

 

Agnostics still care whether or not God exists -- and are still thinking about it.

 

Apatheists think that even the question of God's existence, is meaningless.  They don't care.

 

There is also, Apathetic Agnosticism.  "We don't know and we don't care."

 

Similar to Apathetic Atheism.  "We don't believe and we don't care."

 

By all means, the grand combination.  Apathetic Agnostic Atheism  We don't know, we don't care and we don't believe."

 

Because a God that neither helps -- nor hinders -- nor can be demonstrated to exist -- simply doesn't matter.  Even if it actually exists, it still doesn't matter.  We are now in the realm of --  "So what?"

 

    

 

Let us be clear.  It is God that doesn't matter.  Religion still matters.  A lot.  Religion is real.  Because the religious are real.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Pete said:

I sympathise a bit to the Humanist position and a bit to the atheist position, but mostly to the agnostic position. When I said it does not matter, I was referring to whether there is a god  or not as it cannot be proved and has no influence either way.

 

 

Yes.  Agnostic is a good word to use.   Sometimes, I still use it.  

 

 

[Pete]

A person's religion not be not present and is replaced by philosophy.  I think Humanism go some way towards this. Actual living things matter, be they Human or some other creature. They are real as you say and relatable in the way a invisible, concept, of an all powerful being cannot be relatable. The former we can see and prove they exist in a way the later cannot. All you have is a group of fanatical people demanding something is so and say you have to believe what they say or in some book, is right without any real evidence. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

18 minutes ago, Pete said:

A person's religion not be not present and is replaced by philosophy.  I think Humanism go some way towards this. Actual living things matter, be they Human or some other creature. They are real as you say and relatable in the way a invisible, concept, of an all powerful being cannot be relatable. The former we can see and prove they exist in a way the later cannot. All you have is a group of fanatical people demanding something is so and say you have to believe what they say or in some book, is right without any real evidence. 

 

 

I'm less clear about what Humanism is.  There are organizations behind it.

 

 

[Pete]

What organisations is that? I never knew that.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 minutes ago, Pete said:

What organisations is that? I never knew that.

 

 

I can't at the moment recall their name.  An interesting bunch.  

 

They provide lawyers for High School students. who don't want to stand for the Pledge.

 

They are also working to get Humanist chaplains, for the American Military.

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

 

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