Christian Threats of Damnation

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

It's just hype and drama. If your saying Jesus was the son of god  and he was killed you can't just say that was it. I know lets say the dead walked, the sky darkened and the temple curtains tore and oh! Let's also say he rose again. There that will grab their attentions and is fitting a god. Don't worry what the Jews in Jerusalem say, they are all dead in 74 ad. because Rome killed them all.

 

 

 

If you insist on bringing reality into this -- most of the Jews did not follow Jesus.  Not then.  Not now.

 

Maybe they got it right?

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

Yet, that contradicts the bible. Paul had a man brought back life after he fell out of the window and Peter healed people.  

Are we saying some parts are true and not others or is Dan saying it's all true.

Not that I really want to know.

 

 

Dan has been clear.  He insists that it's all true.     

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

Yet, that contradicts the bible. Paul had a man brought back life after he fell out of the window and Peter healed people.  

Are we saying some parts are true and not others or is Dan saying it's all true.

Not that I really want to know.

 

In John, Jesus says that all who believe -- will do greater works.  So said Jesus.

 

John 14:12

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

[Dan56]

18 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Not really the case, was it...? By that time, according to scripture, Jesus was more or less "Israel's most wanted" and had been tried and put to death in a very public spectacle. So having him walk around after that execution would have been a bit of a big deal (that reporters, law enforcers and historians definitely would have noticed)...

 

No, because he only appeared to those who knew him. Where does it say that he appeared to gentles, Romans, or nonbelievers? His appearances were only to his followers.

 

13 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A group of people with agendas meets. 

 

And what do you suppose that agenda was? Money & fame?  Nearly all of them were afflicted, persecuted, imprisoned, and killed, just like Christ.. Hardly an agenda one would aspire to achieve.

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Dan has been clear.  He insists that it's all true. 

 

 

 True, there no middle ground for me.

 

11 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In John, Jesus says that all who believe -- will do greater works.  So said Jesus.

John 14:12

Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

In context, Jesus was instructing those who would be his apostles.. And collectively, they did perform a greater number of miracles in that first century, and then it ended.

[Pete]

Dan 😴😴😴

This is your belief.  You have no proof of any of it being fact. Yet, you talk as if fact. All this shows more evidence that you cannot prove anything. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

36 minutes ago, Pete said:

Dan 😴😴😴

This is your belief.  You have no proof of any of it being fact. Yet, you talk as if fact. All this shows more evidence that you cannot prove anything. 

 

 

You're talking to Dan.  The man who makes no distinctions.

 

He can not distinguish between personal faith and objective reality.

 

What you ask exceeds his ability.  He can't do it.  

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No, because he only appeared to those who knew him. Where does it say that he appeared to gentles, Romans, or nonbelievers? His appearances were only to his followers.

 

 

And what do you suppose that agenda was? Money & fame?  Nearly all of them were afflicted, persecuted, imprisoned, and killed, just like Christ.. Hardly an agenda one would aspire to achieve.

 

 

 True, there no middle ground for me.

 

 

In context, Jesus was instructing those who would be his apostles.. And collectively, they did perform a greater number of miracles in that first century, and then it ended.

 

 

   Uh-huh

 

 

[RevBogovac]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] [Jesus] only appeared to those who knew him. Where does it say that he appeared to gentles, Romans, or nonbelievers? His appearances were only to his followers. [...]

 

Wait? Appeared?!? Now what is it?!? Was he resurrected, or not??? Appeared sounds like some kind of ghostly "appearance" where resurrection - to me - sounds like an empty grave and the formerly dead person walking around, constantly (so being able to be perceived by law-enforcers, journalists, the general public et cetera)... 

[cuchulain]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

No, because he only appeared to those who knew him. Where does it say that he appeared to gentles, Romans, or nonbelievers? His appearances were only to his followers.

 

 

And what do you suppose that agenda was? Money & fame?  Nearly all of them were afflicted, persecuted, imprisoned, and killed, just like Christ.. Hardly an agenda one would aspire to achieve.

 

 

 True, there no middle ground for me.

 

 

In context, Jesus was instructing those who would be his apostles.. And collectively, they did perform a greater number of miracles in that first century, and then it ended.

They were NOT persecuted.  The council that formed your Bible did a lot of persecuting.  It's history, look it up.  Talk about deceptive practice to defend the truth...

[Pete]

All Jews and Christians were persecuted in the first and second centuries.  It was after Constantine that the church and Constantine persecuted anyone who had a differing take on Christianity and especially the Jews.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Wait? Appeared?!? Now what is it?!? Was he resurrected, or not??? Appeared sounds like some kind of ghostly "appearance" where resurrection - to me - sounds like an empty grave and the formerly dead person walking around, constantly (so being able to be perceived by law-enforcers, journalists, the general public et cetera)... 

 

 

You know.  The ultimate evidence.  On the down low.          

[Dan56]

17 hours ago, Pete said:

Dan 😴😴😴

This is your belief.  You have no proof of any of it being fact. Yet, you talk as if fact. All this shows more evidence that you cannot prove anything. 

 

Yes, it is my belief... I wasn't trying to present evidence, but simply stating what's written... No one can proof it to be true or false, its accepted by faith.

 

14 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

Wait? Appeared?!? Now what is it?!? Was he resurrected, or not??? Appeared sounds like some kind of ghostly "appearance" where resurrection - to me - sounds like an empty grave and the formerly dead person walking around, constantly (so being able to be perceived by law-enforcers, journalists, the general public et cetera)... 

 

Both, he was resurrected and then appeared to brethren, not law-enforcers, journalists, or the general public. While his physical body was resurrected, he was also in spirit. John 20:19 & 26 states that Jesus came to his disciples, who were in a locked house, and Jesus appeared in the midst of them (twice). And when he departed for the final time, he didn't walk, he ascended into heaven. 

 

13 hours ago, cuchulain said:

They were NOT persecuted.  The council that formed your Bible did a lot of persecuting.  It's history, look it up.  Talk about deceptive practice to defend the truth...

 

Apparently, your not familiar with scripture; "And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (Acts 5:18). "They stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead" (Acts 14:19). "The chief magistrates tore their robes off them and proceeded to order them to be beaten with rods" (Acts 16:22). "Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes" (2 Corinthians 11:24). etc.

 

Stephen was stoned.

James was beheaded.

Philip crucified.

Matthew slain with a sword.

James the brother of Jesus, had his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.

Matthias stoned and then beheaded.

Andrew crucified.

Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria.

Peter crucified upside down.

Paul beheaded with a sword.

Jude crucified.

Bartholomew beaten then crucified.

Thomas killed with a spear.

Luke hanged.

Simon crucified.

John was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil, but lived and was exiled and died on the island of Patmos.

 

If Jesus was not resurrected, why would a bunch of scared disciples who ran away, all of a sudden decide He was worth dying for?

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, it is my belief... I wasn't trying to present evidence, but simply stating what's written... No one can proof it to be true or false, its accepted by faith.

 

 

Both, he was resurrected and then appeared to brethren, not law-enforcers, journalists, or the general public. While his physical body was resurrected, he was also in spirit. John 20:19 & 26 states that Jesus came to his disciples, who were in a locked house, and Jesus appeared in the midst of them (twice). And when he departed for the final time, he didn't walk, he ascended into heaven. 

 

 

Apparently, your not familiar with scripture; "And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (Acts 5:18). "They stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead" (Acts 14:19). "The chief magistrates tore their robes off them and proceeded to order them to be beaten with rods" (Acts 16:22). "Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes" (2 Corinthians 11:24). etc.

 

Stephen was stoned.

James was beheaded.

Philip crucified.

Matthew slain with a sword.

James the brother of Jesus, had his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.

Matthias stoned and then beheaded.

Andrew crucified.

Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria.

Peter crucified upside down.

Paul beheaded with a sword.

Jude crucified.

Bartholomew beaten then crucified.

Thomas killed with a spear.

Luke hanged.

Simon crucified.

John was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil, but lived and was exiled and died on the island of Patmos.

 

If Jesus was not resurrected, why would a bunch of scared disciples who ran away, all of a sudden decide He was worth dying for?

Nice straw man.  I was speaking specifically of the council that put the Bible together but you want to say that I was speaking of early Christian's...yet more deceptive practice to defend your truth.

[Pete]

There is also no evidence of the deaths of the disciples. John for instance. Many who do believe think that the John the disciple,  John the gospel writer, John the letter writer and John of Revelations are different people.  Such as the lack of actual knowledge of the disciples and their lives. As for the book of Acts I believe it is a complete work of fiction to include Paul. It even contradicts Paul. Any report of their deaths has to be questioned in the light of no evidence for any of it.⁸

What acts does show is the ability of the church to create stuff.

I agree though that the Church did persecute people who disagreed from the start and  well beyond the middle ages.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, it is my belief... I wasn't trying to present evidence, but simply stating what's written... No one can proof it to be true or false, its accepted by faith.

 

 

Both, he was resurrected and then appeared to brethren, not law-enforcers, journalists, or the general public. While his physical body was resurrected, he was also in spirit. John 20:19 & 26 states that Jesus came to his disciples, who were in a locked house, and Jesus appeared in the midst of them (twice). And when he departed for the final time, he didn't walk, he ascended into heaven. 

 

 

Apparently, your not familiar with scripture; "And laid their hands on the apostles, and put them in the common prison" (Acts 5:18). "They stoned Paul and dragged him out of the city, supposing him to be dead" (Acts 14:19). "The chief magistrates tore their robes off them and proceeded to order them to be beaten with rods" (Acts 16:22). "Five times I received from the Jews thirty-nine lashes" (2 Corinthians 11:24). etc.

 

Stephen was stoned.

James was beheaded.

Philip crucified.

Matthew slain with a sword.

James the brother of Jesus, had his brains dashed out with a fuller's club.

Matthias stoned and then beheaded.

Andrew crucified.

Mark was dragged to pieces by the people of Alexandria.

Peter crucified upside down.

Paul beheaded with a sword.

Jude crucified.

Bartholomew beaten then crucified.

Thomas killed with a spear.

Luke hanged.

Simon crucified.

John was cast into a cauldron of boiling oil, but lived and was exiled and died on the island of Patmos.

 

If Jesus was not resurrected, why would a bunch of scared disciples who ran away, all of a sudden decide He was worth dying for?

 

 

 

All based on -- what?  Faith.     

 

Of course, all the other religions lack proof.     

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

There is also no evidence of the deaths of the disciples. John for instance. Many who do believe think that the John the disciple,  John the gospel writer, John the letter writer and John of Revelations are different people.  Such as the lack of actual knowledge of the disciples and their lives. As for the book of Acts I believe it is a complete work of fiction to include Paul. It even contradicts Paul. Any report of their deaths has to be questioned in the light of no evidence for any of it.⁸

What acts does show is the ability of the church to create stuff.

I agree though that the Church did persecute people who disagreed from the start and  well beyond the middle ages.

 

 

Of course.  No evidence for Jesus.  No evidence for the disciples.  All faith and fraud.   

 

 

[Pete]

It is likely that Paul did exist and I am sure some of the disciples did exist. Paul never met Jesus or had much to do with the disciples.  My comments are about no one having conclusive proof how they died. I also don't trust the writers of the bible to be accurate in their views. Hence I don't trust the bible. When you look at James and Paul they don't exactly gel.

Also many scholars don't believe Paul some his letter and Peter 1 and 2 are not thought written by Peter. It's a mess. I know some believe it all but I don't support this. If Jesus did exist, what his message was is not proved by the NT.

Edited November 14, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

It is likely that Paul did exist and I am sure some of the disciples did exist. Paul never met Jesus or had much to do with the disciples.  My comments are about no one having conclusive proof how they died. I also don't trust the writers of the bible to be accurate in their views. Hence I don't trust the bible. When you look at James and Paul they don't exactly gel.

Also many scholars don't believe Paul some his letter and Peter 1 and 2 are not thought written by Peter. It's a mess. I know some believe it all but I don't support this. If Jesus did exist, what his message was is not proved by the NT.

 

Curiosity compels.  In this miasma of fraud and fiction -- why do you think that Paul was real?  Or any of the disciples?  Which ones?  Do you know of any actual evidence, for any of it?  When the obvious lies and deceptions are so thick; I have difficulty believing any of it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

17 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Of course.  No evidence for Jesus.  No evidence for the disciples.  All faith and fraud.   

 

One either believes in the written record or they dismiss it.. But again, what's the motivation for making it up? In a hundred years or more, there will probably be no evidence of Jonathan either, those who claim that such a person ever existed with no evidence for Jonathan, will foolishly base their conclusion on faith and fraud. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

One either believes in the written record or they dismiss it.. But again, what's the motivation for making it up? In a hundred years or more, there will probably be no evidence of Jonathan either, those who claim that such a person ever existed with no evidence for Jonathan, will foolishly base their conclusion on faith and fraud. 

 

 

Written Record?  The Bible?  

 

Long after my death -- when everybody who knew me is dead -- and everybody who knew them is dead -- belief in my existence will have no consequences.  Belief in my existence won't change anything for anybody.  Just like belief in Jesus.

 

 

 

 

 

You might enjoy reading the Bhagavad Gita.  It's a Hindu text about the Life of Krishna.  One of the Vedic deities, who manifested on Earth, in human form.  It's an interesting story that many believe to be literal truth.  After all, what would be the motivation, in making it up?  

 

 

There is also the Koran -- which has many wonderful stories about the Prophet Mohammed.  Doubting the truth of these stories makes a lot of people angry.  People die for doubting them.

 

 

My personal favorites are the stories of the Norse gods.  Many interesting characters, with good plot twists.  All believed by many, to be literal.  Who would make that stuff up?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl