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The Christian Terrorist Threat of Eternal Hell Fire and Suffering.     :rolleyes:

 

It's real.  Franklin Graham says so.     :bad:

 

 

https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/2019/10/17/franklin-graham-atheist-ron-reagan-better-be-afraid-of-burning-in-hell/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Imagine+No+Religion&utm_content=44

 

:coffee:

 

 

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Judaism does not believe in hell. It started with the early Christian church. I believe it was a means to cement the churches control over the faith. Especially with Jesus being a Jew. Judaism was a threat to their control as was Gnosticism. The Popes gave forgiveness and reprieve from going to hell. In a sense they created their very own monster and forgiveness from the sins of straying from the faith and their control. Even if we accept the gospels (which I don't) it is a far cry from the forgiveness brought by Jesus and Jesus being the only intermediary between God and a sinner. 

It all smacks of church corruption and their grasp of power to themselves. 

Edited by Pete

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9 hours ago, Pete said:

Judaism does not believe in hell. It started with the early Christian church. I believe it was a means to cement the churches control over the faith. Especially with Jesus being a Jew. Judaism was a threat to their control as was Gnosticism. The Popes gave forgiveness and reprieve from going to hell. In a sense they created their very own monster and forgiveness from the sins of straying from the faith and their control. Even if we accept the gospels (which I don't) it is a far cry from the forgiveness brought by Jesus and Jesus being the only intermediary between God and a sinner. 

It all smacks of church corruption and their grasp of power to themselves. 

 

 

Hell Fire is the terrorist threat, intended to frighten potential converts into submission -- and maintain their grip on the faithful.  This is not a relic of the dead past.  I still encounter street preachers who use the threat.  Obviously, it fails with me.  Still, it continues to annoy and irritate me.

 

 

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In opposition, the atheist promise is sweet Oblivion.  Nothing after death, we prefer life before death.

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3 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

In opposition, the atheist promise is sweet Oblivion.  Nothing after death, we prefer life before death.

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you on this one.  Atheism is only a conclusion about God.  Atheism does not have anything to do with post death existence.  It does not promise oblivion or anything else.

 

Beyond that, we have no objective, verifiable information about post death existence.  Not Heaven,  Hell, reincarnation, anything else  -- or oblivion.  The point remains.  Wanting post death existence -- or oblivion -- does not make it so.  What is -- is.  We will find out when the time comes.  Or not.  

 

I do agree with you on life.  Until we die, it is best to live.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

 

I have to disagree with you on this one.  Atheism is only a conclusion about God.  Atheism does not have anything to do with post death existence.  It does not promise oblivion or anything else.

 

Beyond that, we have no objective, verifiable information about post death existence.  Not Heaven,  Hell, reincarnation, anything else  -- or oblivion.  The point remains.  Wanting post death existence -- or oblivion -- does not make it so.  What is -- is.  We will find out when the time comes.  Or not.  

 

I do agree with you on life.  Until we die, it is best to live.

 

 

 

 

 

 

There are a few natural laws however that give us some direction; one of which is the law of conservation of energy...

 

Living things consist of matter and energy. Once they die the matter decades. What happens to their energy...? (The above law sort of goes against oblivion, doesn't it?)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

 

There are a few natural laws however that give us some direction; one of which is the law of conservation of energy...

 

Living things consist of matter and energy. Once they die the matter decades. What happens to their energy...? (The above law sort of goes against oblivion, doesn't it?)

 

 

 

 

 

 

We don't know that memory persists.  We don't know that personality persists.  I'm not being argumentative.  We don't know.

 

Does it give comfort to think that our abstract energy -- or life force -- or what ever -- will persist?  Maybe it will.  I don't know.  Unless my individuality persists, I don't think it matters -- to me.

 

In classic Vedic symbolism, the soul is like a drop of water that returns to the ocean.  I don't find any comfort in that.  

 

For what little it's worth, I have my own approach.

 

When death comes, there are two possibilities.  Either nothing happens, or something happens.  If it's nothing, we won't even find out.  If it's something, there are two possibilities.

 

Either it's unconscious or it's conscious.  If it's unconscious, we won't even find out about it.  If it's conscious, it will be interesting.

 

This is when the Christian Fundamentalist says, by that time it's too late.  The Fundamentalist is working on a binary.  Either Heaven or Hell.  Of course, this is based on an assertion that has nothing to back it up.  Before we jump into -- Suppose you're wrong?   (Pascal's Wager) -- I remind you that Islam also has Perdition for non-believers.  I am not motivated to hedge my bets, by guessing which Hell to be afraid of.  None of them know anything and it's all crap.

 

Life is short and the end is certain.  Until then, let us live.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Bhuddism was also atheist based and believed in an after life.. Atheism has nothing to do beliefs about past and present or future   it has to only to do with whether there is a God or not. 

As to your other point Jonathan,  I agree preachers still use threats but they are baseless threats. Created by a bygone century in a corrupt religious organisation. 

Edited by Pete

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Skepticism is what I should have said.  I don't believe in a deity because there's insufficient evidence.  I don't believe in an afterlife for the same reason.  

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7 hours ago, cuchulain said:

Skepticism is what I should have said.  I don't believe in a deity because there's insufficient evidence.  I don't believe in an afterlife for the same reason.  

 

 

Alright.  Speaking from skepticism:

  • Yes.  We lack evidence of a deity.
  • If we had evidence for a god -- we still would not have evidence of the Biblical God.

In like manner, if we had evidence for post death existence:

  • We would still lack evidence for the existence of Heaven or Hell.
  • If we did have evidence of Heaven or Hell -- we still would have no proof that it was the Christian version.
  • The Islamic versions are just as likely -- or unlikely -- as the Christian versions.

 

:coffee:

 

 

 

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18 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

We don't know that memory persists.  We don't know that personality persists.  I'm not being argumentative.  We don't know.

 

Does it give comfort to think that our abstract energy -- or life force -- or what ever -- will persist?  Maybe it will.  I don't know.  Unless my individuality persists, I don't think it matters -- to me.

 

In classic Vedic symbolism, the soul is like a drop of water that returns to the ocean.  I don't find any comfort in that.  

 

For what little it's worth, I have my own approach.

 

When death comes, there are two possibilities.  Either nothing happens, or something happens.  If it's nothing, we won't even find out.  If it's something, there are two possibilities.

 

Either it's unconscious or it's conscious.  If it's unconscious, we won't even find out about it.  If it's conscious, it will be interesting.

 

This is when the Christian Fundamentalist says, by that time it's too late.  The Fundamentalist is working on a binary.  Either Heaven or Hell.  Of course, this is based on an assertion that has nothing to back it up.  Before we jump into -- Suppose you're wrong?   (Pascal's Wager) -- I remind you that Islam also has Perdition for non-believers.  I am not motivated to hedge my bets, by guessing which Hell to be afraid of.  None of them know anything and it's all crap.

 

Life is short and the end is certain.  Until then, let us live.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

We don't know, but - again - science gives us some pointers; memory is stored by synapses working/firing together. Again matter and energy... The matter decades so science suggests memory will decade with it... 

 

To me, it does give me some strange kind of comfort knowing we are all part of that same flow of energy (from energy to energy, nevermind the dust...). But yes, that is a personal consideration.

 

For the rest (re: religion): 100% agreed.

 

:drinks:

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

Maybe.     :dntknw:     

 

 

Well, it's more than that by now... I'd say "probably" (which still is a "maybe", but at the same time can be said for most scientific "facts")...

 

Scientists have "resurrected" a pig brain recently and we might get some clearer answers in the future... 

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Once brain cells die, they are dead. After 4 minutes of deprived oxygen brain cells die. This can be lengthened in cold temperatures but not indefinitely. Long term cold starts to form ice lumps and that destroys brain cells too. Under normal conditions no brain that has died has been resurrected. 

Is there a spirit - that again has little evidence but as Jonathan  said "maybe " but where is the demonstratable evidence. 

Edited by Pete

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10 hours ago, Pete said:

Once brain cells die, they are dead. After 4 minutes of deprived oxygen brain cells die. This can be lengthened in cold temperatures but not indefinitely. Long term cold starts to form ice lumps and that destroys brain cells too. Under normal conditions no brain that has died has been resurrected. 

Is there a spirit - that again has little evidence but as Jonathan  said "maybe " but where is the demonstratable evidence. 

 

 

Objective, verifiable evidence for the soul is lacking.  It could still exist.  I know of no good reason to think that this is so.  Just like God.  

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13 hours ago, Pete said:

Once brain cells die, they are dead. After 4 minutes of deprived oxygen brain cells die. This can be lengthened in cold temperatures but not indefinitely. Long term cold starts to form ice lumps and that destroys brain cells too. Under normal conditions no brain that has died has been resurrected. 

Is there a spirit - that again has little evidence but as Jonathan  said "maybe " but where is the demonstratable evidence. 

 

Yup, that's exactly what I meant by saying the matter decades but the energy goes on (the law of conservation of energy, remember...).

But as memory is stored in the brain as a combination of matter and energy it is probable to assume those memories are gone with the matter.

There are some people who believe the "soul/spirit" is a form of energy, but as Johnathan said; there is no evidence of that (or even the existence of something like a "soul")...

 

I choose to believe that we are all connected through that energy (but not conscious).

 

Then the interesting question of whether it even matters arises; that is personal, but I don't see why it should. It's busy enough minding the living. 

 

PS regarding the resurrection of the pig brain you might want to "Google" the latest findings (from the top of my head I believe they "stretched" the "post-mortem" period under "normal conditions" [the pigs were slaughtered in a slaughter house and their heads transported to the lab] to 6 hours)...

 

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2 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

There are some people who believe the "soul/spirit" is a form of energy, but as Johnathan said; there is no evidence of that (or even the existence of something like a "soul")...

 

I choose to believe that we are all connected through that energy (but not conscious).

 

Then the interesting question of whether it even matters arises; that is personal, but I don't see why it should. It's busy enough minding the living. 

 

PS regarding the resurrection of the pig brain you might want to "Google" the latest findings (from the top of my head I believe they "stretched" the "post-mortem" period under "normal conditions" [the pigs were slaughtered in a slaughter house and their heads transported to the lab] to 6 hours)...

 

 

 

 

I think that this is a distinction without a difference.  It is still personal extinction/oblivion.  

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I think that this is a distinction without a difference.  It is still personal extinction/oblivion.  

 

:mellow:

 

 

I beg to differ; it depends on how big your ego is (whether you find it important if you "personally" are remembered or your energy is part of a bigger whole)... :coffee:

 

 

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16 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I beg to differ; it depends on how big your ego is (whether you find it important if you "personally" are remembered or your energy is part of a bigger whole)... :coffee:

 

 

 

 

You have misread me.  It is not about being remembered.  It is about continuing to exist -- as me.  

 

I understand your point about the bigger whole.  I don't worry when I scrape myself and lose skin cells.  My perspective is still singular.  What persists is not "me".

 

:mellow:

 

 

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

You have misread me.  It is not about being remembered.  It is about continuing to exist -- as me.  

 

I understand your point about the bigger whole.  I don't worry when I scrape myself and lose skin cells.  My perspective is still singular.  What persists is not "me".

 

:mellow:

 

 

 

I agree... I also find it very improbable that "it" (the energy) will be "me"... just "part" of "me"... the eternal part.

 

So does it matter (to you) it will not be "you"...? Only if you let it matter it becomes "damnation"... doesn't it...?

 

Edited by RevBogovac

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