A Pagan Voice with something to say.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

We are an Interfaith Church.  I think this is a Pagan Voice worth hearing.

 

 

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/panmankey/2019/05/do-we-need-pan-pagan-clergy-i-dont-think-so/?utm_source=Newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Pagan&utm_content=37

[Pete]

I remember a doctor who used to run a group of varing faiths at end of life years. He said it is not for me to convince anyone about his beliefs.  The important thing is for them to say what they feel is their beliefs in an area where no one is to argue against it. Therefore the point is listening and facilitating (where possible ) what the person feels they need. This is important to many faiths and none faiths alike. In stating their belief they are reaffirming their own beliefs at a time they will need them. ie end of life years.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

The Pagan voices on this board have gone silent.  I miss them.

 

 

[Pete]

That is sad. Have they gone Tribal or another forum.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Pete

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

That is sad. Have they gone Tribal or another forum.

 

 

Not Tribal.  They are not expanding.  Possibly to Pagan sites.  I don't know.  

[Geordon]

Speaking as a Pagan voice, I got tired of being ridden down and incessantly argued with by a handful of specific individuals on this board.  The administration has gone absent, and one of the people who was (is?) one of the largest problems *is* the only active admin.  When I addressed the issue with Andre directly, he basically washed his hands of it and said that if the forum was too much of a problem, he'd just kill it off.

 

Now, that being said, let me read the article in question.  Brb.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

22 minutes ago, Geordon said:

Speaking as a Pagan voice, I got tired of being ridden down and incessantly argued with by a handful of specific individuals on this board.  The administration has gone absent, and one of the people who was (is?) one of the largest problems *is* the only active admin.  When I addressed the issue with Andre directly, he basically washed his hands of it and said that if the forum was too much of a problem, he'd just kill it off.

 

Now, that being said, let me read the article in question.  Brb.

 

Alright.  I look forward to a real conversation.

 

 

[Geordon]

Ok, that was quick.  First, let me say that I define myself as follows:  I am a Buddhist, a Druid, and a Devotee of Hekate.  I would classify myself as a devotional hard polytheist, as I perform rites to Hekate and I view the many gods as separate individuals, discrete in and of themselves, rather than as different aspects of some amorphous universal Divine.  

 

Now, I originally took my ordination through ULC with the expectation that I would be available for my Pagan community in general.  Most Pagans don't think that they need formal clergy since they mostly do things for and by themselves. Seasonal rites being an obvious one.

 

I view the word "clergy" as being a general category denoting some sort of legal and/or formal recognition and training as well as informal education, as would be self-taught and "lay-leaders" in formal churches.

 

Professional clergy is, in my mind, a phrase that covers two distinct types of religious figures:  Those who lead congregations and write sermons ("pastors" in my book), and those who take care of the more spiritual needs of their congregants, like leading rites of passage and care of the ill and their families ("ministers" as I choose to call them).  In the Pagan world, we have little in the way of formal education. Cherry Hill Seminary is pretty much the closest thing that we have.  IMO, we *do* need some specific trained, professional clergy, so that we can "sit at the adults' table" along with the monotheists.  We need people trained to work with people having a crisis of faith, having to deal with major life changes, etc.  But, as Pagans are both distrustful of organized faith and authority, it's a fine line to walk.

 

John Beckett is a UU Druid who posts frequently on Patheos.  I don't always agree with him, but I definitely respect his work and writing.  He wrote a blog post a few weeks back that pretty much works in concert with my own beliefs: 15 Roles of Pagan Priesthood – How Many Is Too Many?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

At this point, my concern is that the Pagan -- and Heathen -- voices on this board have gone silent.  It's a sad loss.  I miss them.

 

I expect that some of them got disgusted, between the binary of Monotheistic true believers -- and the opposing binary of Atheists, Agnostics, etc.  The conflict between Monotheistic belief and non-belief doesn't leave much room for others.

 

I'm sure that some of my own arguments, have contributed.  It's unfortunate.  Alas, when I'm arguing with a Monotheistic true believer, subtleties get lost.

 

There are also real differences in the Polytheistic world.  Distinctions as wide as the differences between Christianity and Islam.  Or between Sunni and Shia.  Between Catholic and Baptist.  I get that Pagans can hate being lumped in together.

 

Since you're Buddhist, I can tell you that I took "empowerment initiation" to Medicine Buddha and White Tara.  At the time, I was pursuing the Buddhist origins of Reiki.  I took another initiation to Sekhmet.  Said to be the origin of Seikhim Reiki.  I have no other connection to the Egyptian Pantheon.  For similar reasons, I was initiated to Kuan Yin.

 

Now, to your response.  I used to be acquainted with a Druid.  He said that he was a priest.  He was also a ULC minister.  He said that this was to perform legal weddings.  He said that the State didn't know anything about Druids and he didn't want to discuss it with them.  I think that you had similar motives, in getting the ULC ordination.

 

I also think that the military, might have a legitimate use, for Pagan Chaplains.  I'm not sure that the military should have any chaplains -- but if they must -- there is no reason to exclude Pagan Chaplains.  There are institutional problems.  The military has a list of organizations that can propose chaplains.  The American Humanist Association is trying to sponsor a Humanist Chaplain.  The American Department of Defense isn't having it.  The Pagan world, would need to have an institution, that the Department of Defense would recognize.  How much of the Pagan world could work with that particular Pagan body?  This won't be easy.

 

Less grief if the government is not involved.  Still, how much do the different Pagan groups, really want to work together?  I'm not in a position to know.  That was the point of the article.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Geordon said:

Speaking as a Pagan voice, I got tired of being ridden down and incessantly argued with by a handful of specific individuals on this board.  The administration has gone absent, and one of the people who was (is?) one of the largest problems *is* the only active admin.  When I addressed the issue with Andre directly, he basically washed his hands of it and said that if the forum was too much of a problem, he'd just kill it off.

 

Now, that being said, let me read the article in question.  Brb.

 

An addendum:  I'm not real clear on what it takes, for an on line church to be real.  (Something more than a web site)  As a practical matter, If the ULC loses this forum -- it will reduce the Church to being an on line store.  They can still sell their books, certificates, diplomas, shirts and other goods.  I think it takes more than a store to be a church.

 

The ULCHQ site, is still looking forward to their big convention -- in 1995.  There's not a lot of life there, either.  

 

I'm not in a position to judge how much life is in the Modesto Church.  When the Modesto Chamber of Commerce, sent me their list of Churches -- the ULC was not on the list.  Evidently, there is a great deal that Andre does not care about.

 

Where does that leave the Church?  A corporate entity with no life -- and a dying board.  If Andre wants to kill the board, because it's too much trouble -- well --  We will see what happens.  I expect it will be a death spiral.  If anything as lifeless as this church, can be said to spiral.  The board could still come back -- with new, active administration.  What do you think is likely?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevDavidOH]

This is rather disheartening to read. I admit I haven't been around the forum a lot, and when I have been it seems like there's been so little traffic, I've wondered if people are still around. But I'd hate to think the church itself is going anywhere. Then all that would be left is the Monastery.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, RevDavidOH said:

This is rather disheartening to read. I admit I haven't been around the forum a lot, and when I have been it seems like there's been so little traffic, I've wondered if people are still around. But I'd hate to think the church itself is going anywhere. Then all that would be left is the Monastery.

 

 

The Monastery put more effort into their site.  Aside from that?  Their forum vanished years ago.  Just another on line store, pretending to be a church.

 

 

[Geordon]

On 7/14/2019 at 6:57 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

At this point, my concern is that the Pagan -- and Heathen -- voices on this board have gone silent.  It's a sad loss.  I miss them.

 

I've been absent for a while, due to both personal and reasons associated with the board.  I did some digging the other night and I see that at some of the significant issues that I had with the board have been addressed to some extent.  I'm back to give it another whirl.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 6:57 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I also think that the military, might have a legitimate use, for Pagan Chaplains.  I'm not sure that the military should have any chaplains -- but if they must -- there is no reason to exclude Pagan Chaplains.  There are institutional problems.  The military has a list of organizations that can propose chaplains.  The American Humanist Association is trying to sponsor a Humanist Chaplain.  The American Department of Defense isn't having it.  The Pagan world, would need to have an institution, that the Department of Defense would recognize.  How much of the Pagan world could work with that particular Pagan body?  This won't be easy.

 

Believe it or not, both the Department of Defense (The U.S. Army Chaplains Guide to Wicca, Department of Defense adds Heathen and Pagan religions to recognized faith groups)and Veteran's Administration have been making inroads for the acceptance of various inclusions of Paganism from an official perspective: Multiple different Pagan symbols authorized for use on VA/DoD headstones, Circle Sanctuary Minister Becomes First Pagan VA Chaplain Resident.  Both Circle Sanctuary and  Sacred Well Congregation are recognized by the VA for being formally recognized Pagan clergy (lots of administrative ooga-booga as far as the VA and DoD go) training and ordination.  That's required for access to VA hospitals in a professional Chaplain role.

 

On 7/14/2019 at 6:57 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Less grief if the government is not involved.  Still, how much do the different Pagan groups, really want to work together?  I'm not in a position to know.  That was the point of the article.

 

There is always less headache if there is no government involvement.  Too much government involvement and we have the likes of Iran, with religious conservatives running the show.  Too little involvement and there is no protection for minority sects.  Hell, even the Bahá’í Faith is more protected in general than Paganism.  Then again, it looks like Bahá’í is another manifestation of monotheism, so it's less of a challenge to wrap the head around.

 

Anyway, in this day and age, Paganism needs government and societal recognition protection much the same way as Islam does.  The only effective way for that to happen is for the Big Umbrella of Paganism to get it's collective ** together and realize that there is strength in numbers, even if the individuals are not in 100% agreement.  Kind of like the Democratic Party in US government (he says while looking at his 2019 DNC membership card).  To answer your question directly, most Pagans don't want to work together.  They want to be left alone to do their own thing, which is a perfectly reasonable desire, but an immature and short-sighted one.

 

I don't have any answers.  I wish I did, but even IF I did, I don't have the Big Pagan Name to push it in front of other people... Nor do I have the energy that would require.  But I know that there is movement in the Pagan community toward formal recognition in pursuit of equality. 

 

It's just taking time.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

I've been absent for a while, due to both personal and reasons associated with the board.  I did some digging the other night and I see that at some of the significant issues that I had with the board have been addressed to some extent.  I'm back to give it another whirl.

 

 

Believe it or not, both the Department of Defense (The U.S. Army Chaplains Guide to Wicca, Department of Defense adds Heathen and Pagan religions to recognized faith groups)and Veteran's Administration have been making inroads for the acceptance of various inclusions of Paganism from an official perspective: Multiple different Pagan symbols authorized for use on VA/DoD headstones, Circle Sanctuary Minister Becomes First Pagan VA Chaplain Resident.  Both Circle Sanctuary and  Sacred Well Congregation are recognized by the VA for being formally recognized Pagan clergy (lots of administrative ooga-booga as far as the VA and DoD go) training and ordination.  That's required for access to VA hospitals in a professional Chaplain role.

 

 

There is always less headache if there is no government involvement.  Too much government involvement and we have the likes of Iran, with religious conservatives running the show.  Too little involvement and there is no protection for minority sects.  Hell, even the Bahá’í Faith is more protected in general than Paganism.  Then again, it looks like Bahá’í is another manifestation of monotheism, so it's less of a challenge to wrap the head around.

 

Anyway, in this day and age, Paganism needs government and societal recognition protection much the same way as Islam does.  The only effective way for that to happen is for the Big Umbrella of Paganism to get it's collective ** together and realize that there is strength in numbers, even if the individuals are not in 100% agreement.  Kind of like the Democratic Party in US government (he says while looking at his 2019 DNC membership card).  To answer your question directly, most Pagans don't want to work together.  They want to be left alone to do their own thing, which is a perfectly reasonable desire, but an immature and short-sighted one.

 

I don't have any answers.  I wish I did, but even IF I did, I don't have the Big Pagan Name to push it in front of other people... Nor do I have the energy that would require.  But I know that there is movement in the Pagan community toward formal recognition in pursuit of equality. 

 

It's just taking time.

 

 

I think we can all see the joke coming.  Getting Pagans to work together is like herding cats.  Why am I not surprised?  You have my sympathies.

 

Pagan chaplains in the V.A. would be an interesting cultural development.  So would Pagan chaplains in the military.  I like the idea.  It would shake things up.  The dominant religious cultures need shaking up.

 

 

 

 

[Geordon]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

I think we can all see the joke coming.  Getting Pagans to work together is like herding cats.  Why am I not surprised?  You have my sympathies.

 

When you consider that there is actually no central authority of Paganism, like there is with Judaism, Islam, and Christianity (all go back to Abraham, where most of the core doctrine comes from), it's not surprising at all.  Rather, it's surprising that we can come together as well as we can at all! Lol

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Pagan chaplains in the V.A. would be an interesting cultural development.  So would Pagan chaplains in the military.  I like the idea.  It would shake things up.  The dominant religious cultures need shaking up.

 

You'd be surprised to learn how many contemporary military personnel are some variety of Pagan.  The Evangelicals who have ben running the Chaplains' Corps for years have been fighting a losing battle against recognition of non-monotheists for decades.  As for shaking things up, John Beckett has an interesting post on Patheos about this very thing: My Vision of a Pagan Future

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

32 minutes ago, Geordon said:

 

When you consider that there is actually no central authority of Paganism, like there is with Judaism, Islam, and Christianity (all go back to Abraham, where most of the core doctrine comes from), it's not surprising at all.  Rather, it's surprising that we can come together as well as we can at all! Lol

 

 

You'd be surprised to learn how many contemporary military personnel are some variety of Pagan.  The Evangelicals who have been running the Chaplains' Corps for years have been fighting a losing battle against recognition of non-monotheists for decades.  As for shaking things up, John Beckett has an interesting post on Patheos about this very thing: My Vision of a Pagan Future

 

 

Just because the Monotheistic religions share a common mythology; does not mean they share a common authority.  I have separate rants for all three.  I'll spare you.     

 

Yes.  The perfect friends and allies -- to get the Monotheistic God off the money -- and out of the Pledge.         

 

It's time to find common cause.          

 

 

 

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

An addendum:  I read the author's vision of a Pagan future.  The central feature is good.  A Secular government (not Atheist -- Secular) with full religious freedom.  I like it.

 

 

For the rest -- I like it also -- but we could really use more Pagan voices.  The ones that have gone silent on this board.

 

 

 

 

[Geordon]

On 7/15/2019 at 11:27 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

For the rest -- I like it also -- but we could really use more Pagan voices.  The ones that have gone silent on this board.

 

We could use more Pagan voices in the broader social discourse, too, just like any minority.  Unlike many other social minorities, Pagans have countless subtle variations and sub-groups, and there is no single defining characteristic. Moreover, there is no single, central body or authority.  Even the Abrahamic faiths that we skirted above have a common basis to draw from, regardless of the fact that they are all three have vast differences in expression, to the tune of fundamentalists of each stripe calling for war with at least one of the others. (cf. The Crusades, the Global Jihad, and the Jewish/Palestinian war in Gaza and other areas.)

 

So, anyway, like I said, I see that several of the reasons that I took my leave most recently have been dealt with, so I'm back, and I'm Pagan.   What would you like to talk/hear about?

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

On 7/20/2019 at 2:08 PM, Geordon said:

 

We could use more Pagan voices in the broader social discourse, too, just like any minority.  Unlike many other social minorities, Pagans have countless subtle variations and sub-groups, and there is no single defining characteristic. Moreover, there is no single, central body or authority.  Even the Abrahamic faiths that we skirted above have a common basis to draw from, regardless of the fact that they are all three have vast differences in expression, to the tune of fundamentalists of each stripe calling for war with at least one of the others. (cf. The Crusades, the Global Jihad, and the Jewish/Palestinian war in Gaza and other areas.)

 

So, anyway, like I said, I see that several of the reasons that I took my leave most recently have been dealt with, so I'm back, and I'm Pagan.   What would you like to talk/hear about?

 

 

 

I don't have any specific agenda.  It does seem to me, that Atheists and Polytheists are natural allies, in keeping the government secular.  For instance, in removing "In God we trust" from the money.  I'm tired of explaining to Christians that this is intrusive.

 

At the moment, there isn't that much on my mind.  The big A in my life right now, isn't Atheism.  It's Arthritis.  You know.  Day to day life.  Ideology aside, what we have in common as human beings, is way more significant than labels.  Food is the same experience, regardless of ideology.

 

When there is a Pagan slant, I will be happy to hear it.  Much of the time, I don't think it will be an issue.

 

Well, stay happy.

 

 

 

[RevBogovac]

On 7/20/2019 at 8:08 PM, Geordon said:

[...] so I'm back, and I'm Pagan.   What would you like to talk/hear about?

 

 

Welcome back! 

 

First of all, my apologies for my English. It’s my third language, so here I go:

 

my oldest daughter has multiple handicaps/disabilities. She’s born with a deletion of part of her 11th chromosome which lead to all kind of disabilities. Without boring you (all) with everything she can not do, I’m more interested in what she can. Actually in what she is good at. She is extremely in touch with nature (e.g. she talks with anymals, not to... with!). Unfortunately current day society does not appreciate that much any more (in previous times she would have been included in her society as a which, I’m certain...). So I am lost for help.

 

What resources/direction would you recommend to start my research in this direction to be better able to help her...?