value of religion

[Dan56]

59 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

The American Constitution is doing a poor job of protecting minority rights.

 

Majority-Minority, we all have the same rights.. And I think they do a pretty good job treating everyone equally. 

 

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Don't expect it to neuter Islam for you.

 

I never expressed a desire for that to happen.. In fact, I wrote that I don't mind living among them.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

50 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Majority-Minority, we all have the same rights.. And I think they do a pretty good job treating everyone equally. 

 

 

I never expressed a desire for that to happen.. In fact, I wrote that I don't mind living among them.

 

 

Of course, you think that.     

 

 

 

[Key]

22 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

The American Constitution is doing a poor job of protecting minority rights.  Don't expect it to neuter Islam for you.  Then again, you still preach Christian dominance.

 

 

 

 

To be fair, the Constitution can not enforce itself. It is reliant upon the nation's citizens to do that. So it is our government institutions and law enforcements that skew the protections with bias.

[Key]

21 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Majority-Minority, we all have the same rights.. And I think they do a pretty good job treating everyone equally. 

 

 

I never expressed a desire for that to happen.. In fact, I wrote that I don't mind living among them.

Newsflash, Dan: They would mind us living among them. That's the point.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Key said:

To be fair, the Constitution can not enforce itself. It is reliant upon the nation's citizens to do that. So it is our government institutions and law enforcements that skew the protections with bias.

 

 

Every time, the President makes a big show of hosting the Evangelical clergy -- Every time, Creationism intrudes on science education --  Every time, the Pledge is recited -- Every time, I look at my money -- in so many ways, broth great and trivial -- I am confronted with the fact that my country, my culture and my Constitution have been hijacked.

 

when some mindless buffoon -- no names -- tells me that I'm "intolerant" -- Or, I hate religion -- Or I hate God -- it rubs salt in the wounds. 

 

I recently served jury duty.  Right there, over the judge's head -- our "national motto".  "In God we trust."

 

And  I'm the intolerant one?  For expecting equal treatment?  Understand.  I have perspective.  In Saudi Arabia, my public stance would get me executed by the State.  In Pakistan, I would be lynched by the mob.

 

For all that, my government has failed me; and it's only going to get worse.

 

 

 

Edited February 25, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Key said:

Newsflash, Dan: They would mind us living among them. That's the point.

 

 

Even Dan would notice, if all traffic in all directions came to a halt -- while the majority knelt down in prayer, facing East.

 

In subtle ways; and not so subtle, the minority are put in their place.  Such is cultural dominance.  Not so enjoyable, when the demographics shift.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

8 hours ago, Key said:

Newsflash, Dan: They would mind us living among them. That's the point.

 

Newsflash, I have a Muslim family living catty-corner across my backyard, and they don't mind me living in their neighborhood, nor I them... That's my point.

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Every time, the Pledge is recited -- Every time, I look at my money

 

it rubs salt in the wounds. 

 

I recently served jury duty.  Right there, over the judge's head -- our "national motto".  "In God we trust."

 

And  I'm the intolerant one?  For expecting equal treatment?

 

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of intolerance...  Your not asking for equal treatment, your demanding that everyone else adhere to what you think. No one should dare mention God because you don't believe in him? Don't people have the right to express what they believe, even if it hurts your precious feelings? The real question is; Why in the world does it bother you so much? It would be like me throwing a fit every time I saw the Star of David in public.. Try to adjust and roll with it, what others believe shouldn't be offensive to you... jmo

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of intolerance...  Your not asking for equal treatment, your demanding that everyone else adhere to what you think. No one should dare mention God because you don't believe in him? Don't people have the right to express what they believe, even if it hurts your precious feelings? The real question is; Why in the world does it bother you so much? It would be like me throwing a fit every time I saw the Star of David in public.. Try to adjust and roll with it, what others believe shouldn't be offensive to you... jmo

 

 

Spoken like a true Dominant.    

 

I didn't think that my opinion of you, could possibly get worse.  I was mistaken.     

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dan56]

6 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I didn't think that my opinion of you, could possibly get worse.  I was mistaken.     

 

Where have I heard that before?   Don't worry about it, if atheism were dominate, no one would be allowed to mention God.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

17 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

Where have I heard that before?   Don't worry about it, if atheism were dominate, no one would be allowed to mention God.

 

 

Do not project your values onto me.

 

 

 

[Key]

On 2/25/2019 at 6:48 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Newsflash, I have a Muslim family living catty-corner across my backyard, and they don't mind me living in their neighborhood, nor I them... That's my point.

Newsflash: unless you are living in a Islamic dominated society, you are still the one who doesn't mind them living among you. They are not the "culturally dominate" members of society here, so they are tolerant because we are tolerant. In an Islamic state, they tend to be less tolerant. Another point.

[Key]

On 2/25/2019 at 7:14 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of intolerance...  Your not asking for equal treatment, your demanding that everyone else adhere to what you think. No one should dare mention God because you don't believe in him? Don't people have the right to express what they believe, even if it hurts your precious feelings? The real question is; Why in the world does it bother you so much? It would be like me throwing a fit every time I saw the Star of David in public.. Try to adjust and roll with it, what others believe shouldn't be offensive to you... jmo

His point: our government is not suppose to show preference of one belief system over another, or even a lack thereof, (which is even in the Constitution that everyone is so quick to defend in their own interpretation), yet there like an official seal of approval are displays that clearly define a preference for Christianity over everything else. That is what bothers him. That is not a demonstration of equality.

[Key]

On 2/25/2019 at 7:14 PM, Dan56 said:

 

Yes, that's pretty much the definition of intolerance...  Your not asking for equal treatment, your demanding that everyone else adhere to what you think. No one should dare mention God because you don't believe in him? Don't people have the right to express what they believe, even if it hurts your precious feelings? The real question is; Why in the world does it bother you so much? It would be like me throwing a fit every time I saw the Star of David in public.. Try to adjust and roll with it, what others believe shouldn't be offensive to you... jmo

To clarify, for others to advocate the removal of "In God We Trust" from courtrooms and upon currency would not be offensive to you? And what if that advocacy was successful?

Isn't that kind of what you've been arguing about in various threads? That others are "intruding", "interfering" or other such action upon "Christian" holidays and displays.

Make no mistake, I am not an atheist, but neither am I a mainstream Christian. I have no problems with what Jonathan has been saying. Especially considering that "God" is personal, according to what Christ taught. It is what I do that does matter, but that doesn't justify a mob rules mentality.

Edited February 27, 2019 by Key
grammar

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

8 hours ago, Key said:

His point: our government is not suppose to show preference of one belief system over another, or even a lack thereof, (which is even in the Constitution that everyone is so quick to defend in their own interpretation), yet there like an official seal of approval are displays that clearly define a preference for Christianity over everything else. That is what bothers him. That is not a demonstration of equality.

 

 

Yes.  Thank you for that.     

 

 

[Dan56]

16 hours ago, Key said:

Newsflash: unless you are living in a Islamic dominated society, you are still the one who doesn't mind them living among you. They are not the "culturally dominate" members of society here, so they are tolerant because we are tolerant. In an Islamic state, they tend to be less tolerant. Another point.

 

I get that... I would not want to live in a Islamic dominated country that was intolerant of other religions.

 

16 hours ago, Key said:

His point: our government is not suppose to show preference of one belief system over another, or even a lack thereof, (which is even in the Constitution that everyone is so quick to defend in their own interpretation), yet there like an official seal of approval are displays that clearly define a preference for Christianity over everything else. That is what bothers him. That is not a demonstration of equality.

 

I understand that government is not suppose to endorse or favor any one specific belief over another,  and I honestly wouldn't care if they took "In God We Trust" off of everything. But Jonathan goes beyond that, he believes freedom of religion requires freedom from religion. For example, teaching evolution in schools is okay, but he objects to teaching creationism, even though macro-evolution is as much of a hypothesis as creationism is.. That is not a demonstration of equality.. He also doesn't want people to exercise their individual right to pray in public, because he doesn't want to hear it.. That is what bothers him.

 

16 hours ago, Key said:

Isn't that kind of what you've been arguing about in various threads? That others are "intruding", "interfering" or other such action upon "Christian" holidays and displays.

 

My previous objections were not in opposition of others having the same right to celebrate their beliefs or holidays, but their deliberate desire to intentionally protest a Christian holiday. They weren't celebrating a holiday of their own, their intent was to disrupt a belief they detest. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I get that... I would not want to live in a Islamic dominated country that was intolerant of other religions.

 

 

I understand that government is not suppose to endorse or favor any one specific belief over another,  and I honestly wouldn't care if they took "In God We Trust" off of everything. But Jonathan goes beyond that, he believes freedom of religion requires freedom from religion. For example, teaching evolution in schools is okay, but he objects to teaching creationism, even though macro-evolution is as much of a hypothesis as creationism is.. That is not a demonstration of equality.. He also doesn't want people to exercise their individual right to pray in public, because he doesn't want to hear it.. That is what bothers him.

 

 

My previous objections were not in opposition of others having the same right to celebrate their beliefs or holidays, but their deliberate desire to intentionally protest a Christian holiday. They weren't celebrating a holiday of their own, their intent was to disrupt a belief they detest. 

 

Instead of worshiping the Bible, you might try reading it.  I'm not the one calling you a hypocrite.  It's Jesus.

 

KJV

 

Matthew 6:5

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Matthew 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

Edited February 28, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

9 hours ago, Dan56 said:

[...] macro-evolution is as much of a hypothesis as creationism is.. [...]

 

No, it isn't... evolution has a substantial base in empiric science. There is ample of proof to sustain the hypothesis (both through carbon dating evidence from the past as well as through observation of evolution in progress). This proof has been published in peer reviewed scientific journals and has a +98% consensus rate in scientific circles.

Or do you also have a geocentric astronomical view? Flat Earth too, maybe? Hey, it's all just "as much of a hypothesis", right...?

[Dan56]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Instead of worshiping the Bible, you might try reading it.  I'm not the one calling you a hypocrite.  It's Jesus.

 

KJV

 

Matthew 6:5

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Matthew 6:6

But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

 

 

Both Jesus and the apostles prayed in public, so it would be hypocritical for them to call others who do likewise hypocrites.. They didn't.. Jesus was not condemning people for praying aloud, but for putting on a public display for their own benefit. Their motive was to be seen of men, not a sincere prayer, but empty words meant for the ears of other people. After the verses you quoted, Jesus prayed in public (Matthew 6:9)

 

3 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

No, it isn't... evolution has a substantial base in empiric science. There is ample of proof to sustain the hypothesis (both through carbon dating evidence from the past as well as through observation of evolution in progress). This proof has been published in peer reviewed scientific journals and has a +98% consensus rate in scientific circles.

Or do you also have a geocentric astronomical view? Flat Earth too, maybe? Hey, it's all just "as much of a hypothesis", right...?

 

There's absolutely no evidence of macro-evolution (one species changing into another).. Its all speculative conjecture with no fossil records to substantiate the gradual transformation of any species evolving into a completely different or new creature..  Micro-evolution is observable, but imo macro-evolution is a myth.

 

Isaiah 40:22 mentions "the circle of the earth", which would indicate the earth is round.

[Key]

12 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I get that... I would not want to live in a Islamic dominated country that was intolerant of other religions.

 

 

I understand that government is not suppose to endorse or favor any one specific belief over another,  and I honestly wouldn't care if they took "In God We Trust" off of everything. But Jonathan goes beyond that, he believes freedom of religion requires freedom from religion. For example, teaching evolution in schools is okay, but he objects to teaching creationism, even though macro-evolution is as much of a hypothesis as creationism is.. That is not a demonstration of equality.. He also doesn't want people to exercise their individual right to pray in public, because he doesn't want to hear it.. That is what bothers him.

 

 

My previous objections were not in opposition of others having the same right to celebrate their beliefs or holidays, but their deliberate desire to intentionally protest a Christian holiday. They weren't celebrating a holiday of their own, their intent was to disrupt a belief they detest. 

1. I am glad you see that point.

 

2. Never once have I read that he opposes people praying in public. Only that he opposes displays of ANY religion on grounds of public institutions that are suppose to be constitutionally neutral on the subject.

    I have, however, seen him post verses that show the hypocrisy of the matter.

    When obvious bias is displayed, it is showing a practice of inequality.

     As for evolution, there are plenty of scientific evidence and studies to show genetic mutations can and do exist naturally. So, whether you wish to narrow it to macro or micro, it makes no difference over the course of many generations or years, because it does happen. It is science, that is being taught, not faith. Can science be proven wrong? Yes. Science is ongoing, which is why it is peer reviewed. But science is also used to prove or discredit, isn't it?

     Creationism has not yet been proven, but hasn't been eliminated as a possibility, thus is based on faith, and not a science. (Main reason it is debated to be taught in public schools.)

 

3. The holidays in question were appropriated. So, you can say they weren't being celebrated as their own holidays, either. Their intent was to show hypocrisy, and worked for the most part. 

     If one group can have a public display on a given day, so can another. Yet, one group seems to have a problem with it, just like the other that is presenting the mirror.

     Btw, I recall, I had stated before somewhere, a belief can not be disrupted or interfered with unless an individual changes their own beliefs.