Lessons In Apologetics, Part 1: Introduction & Agnosticism

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

47 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

You're welcome. You would be surprised how far social and medical sciences have advanced. This is my summary on the matter, but please feel free to (re-)search further (and more accurately): we [life flora & fauna] are made up out of matter and energy. As matter dies, energy does not. Energy (law of nature) can not end, it only can change form. So as we die, our energy changes form. If someone wants to see that as a "soul" so be it. But that soul does not "keep" our person(-al memories and all). That is "stored" in the synapses of our brains. And that is matter... (which dies). 

 

 

 

I think I understand your basic point.  Matter changes form.  Water can show up as vapor, liquid or ice.  Energy also changes form.  I don't think this is relevant.  As commonly understood; soul is the vessel, by which the individual continues to exist after death.  If the soul is -- speaking poeticly -- a drop of water that merges with the ocean -- I don't find this meaningful.

 

Again, life is short.  Soon enough, we will know -- or not.

 

I am not a materialist.  I'm prepared to change my views, pending further information.  In the meantime, in a total lack of objective, verifiable information -- I don't think it is important.  I live a life of pragmatics.  

 

Again, this is how I think about God.  Pending further information, I don't think it's important.  Because faith is nothing but a strong opinion; independent of facts.

 

 

I will quibble with you on one point.  It is flesh that dies.  Matter changes.  Like energy.

 

🙂

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

[...] I will quibble with you on one point.  It is flesh that dies.  Matter changes.  Like energy. [...]

 

 

I definitely agree with your basic philosophy, no argument (or fun) there... 😉 

 

But re: this matter (pun intended) you're not entirely right; matter can disappear (and appear, out of "nowhere"!) entirely (energy can not), as long as you put in (or extract) enough energy...

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

54 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I definitely agree with your basic philosophy, no argument (or fun) there... 😉 

 

But re: this matter (pun intended) you're not entirely right; matter can disappear (and appear, out of "nowhere"!) entirely (energy can not), as long as you put in (or extract) enough energy...

 

 

Your point is taken.  The new findings in physics, where nothing is more complicated than we thought -- and particles flash in and out of existence.  It's fascinating and I won't pretend to understand it.

 

When the Natural Order is this strange; I can do without the Supernatural.  The Natural is weird enough.

 

🙂

 

Have you been following news about the Higgs Field?  Wild stuff.

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, RevBogovac said:

 

I definitely agree with your basic philosophy, no argument (or fun) there... 😉 

 

But re: this matter (pun intended) you're not entirely right; matter can disappear (and appear, out of "nowhere"!) entirely (energy can not), as long as you put in (or extract) enough energy...

 

Now that my basic thinking is on the table; that leaves the labels.

 

We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  None at all.  Nothing.  Faith does not make it so.  Neither does hope or wishing.  So:

 

I am Agnostic, because we have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  At some point in the future, this may change.  When it does, I'm willing to reconsider.  In the meantime, nothing.

 

I am Atheist, because we have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  I find it unreasonable, to have faith in the existence of something -- when we have no facts about it.  Further, if we did have proof that a god existed -- we still would have no proof that THE  GOD existed.  At best, proof of "a god" would be a wishy washy Deism.  This is the God of Thomas Jefferson and Thomas Paine.

 

Believers insist on making Atheism more than it is.  Atheism is not a belief system, philosophy of morals and ethics -- or any other fool thing they insist on.  Atheism is one thing only.  A conclusion about the existence of God; based on lack of evidence to the contrary.  No faith is involved.  It is the default position based on no evidence at all.  Arguments about Evolution and Cosmology are irrelevant.

 

I do get tired of the mindless assertions:  "Atheists believe in nothing."  "It takes too much faith to be an Atheist."  Etc.

 

If evidence for THE  God ever shows up -- I am willing to reconsider.  Scripture is not evidence.

 

That leave Apatheism.  We have no objective, verifiable facts about God.  None at all.  Nothing.  Speculation on this point, is then futile and useless.  If other people choose to believe without evidence -- that is not my issue.

 

When I use the Agnostic label, I get the Agnostic arguments.  Mostly philosophy about the limits of knowledge -- and irrelevant challenges to make up my mind.

 

When I use the Atheist label, I'm confronted by meaningless metaphysical arguments.  All meaningless.

 

I went to the Apatheist label, because I'm tired of stupid arguments.  My success has been limited.  Even this has gotten stupid arguments, about hopelessness.  Well, the world is not yet perfect.  Apatheism it is -- until I find something better.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 12, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[RevBogovac]

And I respect you for it, Jonathan.

 

I personally would add a couple of things though:

 

I believe in purpose, that purpose has been "build in" by (our) nature: survival and hedonism. If you have "purpose" that gives you "satisfaction", but not much more than that.

 

 And I believe in "something bigger"; in that I think humility is not a bad thing, people are not the "all-mighty". But I do not see any evidence of that "all-mighty" being sentient in any way. It's "just" nature and natural laws (which are objectively provable).

 

For the rest, I concur.

[RevBogovac]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

[...] Have you been following news about the Higgs Field?  Wild stuff. [...]

 

As a matter of fact: yes, I have... And in the field of information and communication technology it has all-ready lead to some wild discoveries (instant communication through quantum entanglement). Really wild stuff... 😎

[cuchulain]

I find the contradictory arguments of 'atheists believe nothing' and 'it takes too much faith to be an atheist' simply amazingly moronic...and usually because they're delivered by the same person who has no grasp that they contradict, like much of the bible.

[Dan56]

7 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

Thank you so much!!! I already was at odds, as I consider myself a Christian and I needed advice in some matters in the Bible, which I would also like to know how to follow those rules?

 

Obvious sarcasm since your no Christian and have absolutely no desire to follow any rules.. But as I wrote, all the OT ordinances and statutes you quoted (mainly from Leviticus) were given to Moses as instructions in governing the Hebrew nation, but it all ended with Christ and the New Covenant.. Nonetheless, here are a few answers to the questions you downloaded from a typical skeptics website.

 

1&2.... "Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities" (Romans 13:1) Slavery is illegal everywhere.

3.....  Blood is a clear sign a woman is in her period

5.... Christ became our Sabbath rest, so no need to kill yourself for working on Saturday.

4,7,8...  As previously mentioned, Christ became our High Priest and sacrifice, so no need for you to consider these rules

9... This statue was to not have a tuft of hair like the Canaanite priests, but replicating what no longer exist makes the rule void.

 

All your quotes were from the OT, your confusion stems from deliberately conflating the 2 testaments. 

 

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I find the contradictory arguments of 'atheists believe nothing' and 'it takes too much faith to be an atheist' simply amazingly moronic...and usually because they're delivered by the same person who has no grasp that they contradict, like much of the bible.

 

It has been my only assertion that atheist believe in nothing divine (God/diety). I understand that they believe in a lot of other stuff, mostly crap imo... In regards to faith, atheist believe they are right, so they have faith in what they think.. Its not a moronic observation because they can't explain or prove anything. They accept no intelligent design or created force, and yet have no viable explanation of how anything came into existence. You believe what you can see, that things exist, but have convinced yourselves that nothing was created.. This to me is contradictory because it dismisses the obvious.

Edited January 12, 2019 by Dan56

[cuchulain]

45 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

It has been my only assertion that atheist believe in nothing divine (God/diety). I understand that they believe in a lot of other stuff, mostly crap imo... In regards to faith, atheist believe they are right, so they have faith in what they think.. Its not a moronic observation because they can't explain or prove anything. They accept no intelligent design or created force, and yet have no viable explanation of how anything came into existence. You believe what you can see, that things exist, but have convinced yourselves that nothing was created.. This to me is contradictory because it dismisses the obvious.

First...that was a general observation not directed toward you.

Its moronic to say in one breath atheists have no faith, then that they have too much.

Last, not having an explanation isnt contradictory or any other negative thing.  Its the truth.  Now, settling for unproven explanations just to have one...THAT'S unintellectual at best.  Having an explanation doesn't equal having a correct explanation.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

 

As a matter of fact: yes, I have... And in the field of information and communication technology it has all-ready lead to some wild discoveries (instant communication through quantum entanglement). Really wild stuff... 😎

 

 

Indeed, yes.  What Einstein called "spooky action at a distance."    The discoveries are just starting.  The Universe is stranger than we ever imagined. 

 

These are exciting times.  Wait until the real AI gets here.

 

🙂

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

It has been my only assertion that atheist believe in nothing divine (God/diety). I understand that they believe in a lot of other stuff, mostly crap imo... In regards to faith, atheist believe they are right, so they have faith in what they think.. Its not a moronic observation because they can't explain or prove anything. They accept no intelligent design or created force, and yet have no viable explanation of how anything came into existence. You believe what you can see, that things exist, but have convinced yourselves that nothing was created.. This to me is contradictory because it dismisses the obvious.

 

 

 

You expect Atheists to conform to your beliefs.  Belief changes nothing.  Not even your belief.  Atheists don't conform to your beliefs about Atheism. 

 

When you are ready to listen, instead of pronounce judgment, you might learn something.

 

 

Edited January 13, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, RevBogovac said:

And I respect you for it, Jonathan.

 

I personally would add a couple of things though:

 

I believe in purpose, that purpose has been "build in" by (our) nature: survival and hedonism. If you have "purpose" that gives you "satisfaction", but not much more than that.

 

 And I believe in "something bigger"; in that I think humility is not a bad thing, people are not the "all-mighty". But I do not see any evidence of that "all-mighty" being sentient in any way. It's "just" nature and natural laws (which are objectively provable).

 

For the rest, I concur.

 

I think that we are in the same church.  Maybe not the same pew, but the same church.  It takes more than not dying, to be fully alive.

 

Of course, there is something greater than Humanity.  We are part of Nature.  We are part of the Earth.  We are part of the Cosmos.  If a star filled night doesn't trigger a sense of wonder -- there's something dead inside.

 

🙂

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I find the contradictory arguments of 'atheists believe nothing' and 'it takes too much faith to be an atheist' simply amazingly moronic...and usually because they're delivered by the same person who has no grasp that they contradict, like much of the bible.

 

 

The pious see us, through the distorting lens of their own faith.  They don't see us at all.  Only their own reflection.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You expect Atheists to conform to your beliefs.  Belief changes nothing.  Not even your belief.  Atheists don't conform to your beliefs about Atheism.

 

I don't expect Atheist to conform to anything divine, because I'm fully aware that they don't believe in any of that... And since you don't think Atheist conform to my belief about Atheism, which is that they don't believe in God/gods, then your suggesting that they do believe in God... Your a walking contradiction

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

7 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I don't expect Atheist to conform to anything divine, because I'm fully aware that they don't believe in any of that... And since you don't think Atheist conform to my belief about Atheism, which is that they don't believe in God/gods, then your suggesting that they do believe in God... Your a walking contradiction

 

Uh-huh.     

 

I will not be provoked.  

 

[Key]

17 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

It has been my only assertion that atheist believe in nothing divine (God/diety). I understand that they believe in a lot of other stuff, mostly crap imo... In regards to faith, atheist believe they are right, so they have faith in what they think.. Its not a moronic observation because they can't explain or prove anything. They accept no intelligent design or created force, and yet have no viable explanation of how anything came into existence. You believe what you can see, that things exist, but have convinced yourselves that nothing was created.. This to me is contradictory because it dismisses the obvious.

Dan, you still seem to be missing the point. There is no belief of an atheist. An atheist thinking is dependent upon the evidence they are provided. It is based on evidence or lack thereof that renders their mind to be right. That requires NO faith, just proof or lack of it. Thinking requires no faith, only deductive reasoning. This is what they have been trying to tell you many times, if I have been interpreting them correctly.

Have I?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Key said:

Dan, you still seem to be missing the point. There is no belief of an atheist. An atheist thinking is dependent upon the evidence they are provided. It is based on evidence or lack thereof that renders their mind to be right. That requires NO faith, just proof or lack of it. Thinking requires no faith, only deductive reasoning. This is what they have been trying to tell you many times, if I have been interpreting them correctly.

Have I?

 

 

I thank you for your kind intentions.  Your efforts in this case are futile.  Dan doesn't care what Atheists think -- or believe.  He is determined to project his own values onto Atheists -- and facts don't matter to him. He wants his understanding of Scripture to be all right -- and those who reject that Scripture to be all wrong.

 

This much has become obvious to me.  Such a mind can't be reasoned with.  He is impervious to nuance and reason.  He sees no perspective but his own.  Facts bounce off him like water off a duck.

 

I think what is most telling, is that when Dan has nothing else to say, he accuses the Atheist of hostility.  Hatred of God, Scripture, Christianity, etc.  All projection.  Your efforts are kind.  They will fail.

 

     

Edited January 13, 2019 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

11 hours ago, Key said:

Dan, you still seem to be missing the point. There is no belief of an atheist. An atheist thinking is dependent upon the evidence they are provided. It is based on evidence or lack thereof that renders their mind to be right. That requires NO faith, just proof or lack of it. Thinking requires no faith, only deductive reasoning. This is what they have been trying to tell you many times, if I have been interpreting them correctly.

Have I?

 

Yes, I've stated repeatedly that Atheist don't believe in anything, I've even posted the definition of Atheism, so I'm aware that there is no belief of an atheist. And I agree that 'thinking' requires no faith.. But every time I submit that, Jonathan explodes saying that I have no idea what Atheist believe, so he obviously disagrees with the dictionaries definition of atheism.

 

In regards to faith, if there is not indisputable evidence to prove God exist, and this lack of proof renders an Atheist mind to be right, then imo they have faith that they have deduced the correct answer towards something where no definitive answer can possibly exist. So the way I look at it is that an Atheist trust that their own cognitive reasoning is correct, meaning that they have faith in their conclusion, and by extension, have faith in themselves, but not anything divine.

 

If I believe God exist, but can't substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right... If I believe God doesn't exist, but cant' substantiate it, I have faith that I'm right.. Everyone believes they are right, and faith is just an extension of belief. That was all I was trying to say.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

On 1/12/2019 at 10:51 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I will not be provoked.

 

 

Translation; You have no answer... I've repeatedly defined Atheist as having no belief in any gods, and you wrote; "Atheists don't conform to your beliefs about Atheism".... So no provocation was intended, I just was pointing out that you contradicted yourself (again).