respect of beliefs for the atheist

[cuchulain]

I have heard in other threads condemnation of the atheist point of view when responding to christians, even from those who call themselves atheist.  I have been told the reason is that we must respect all beliefs.  But that is a paradox contained within its own statement.  If we as a group at the ULC and especially on this website must respect all beliefs and philosophies, isn't it inherently understandable that the philosophy I follow should also enjoy that respect?  If I follow the philosophy of atheism, stoicism, and skepticism blended(and I do, by the way), then am I not entitled to enjoy the exercise of statement of that belief?  The exercise of skepticism is such that I would naturally question a person who alleges some divine being exists as described by the christian members of our community.  So...I am somehow less entitled to express my beliefs and philosophical understandings because they are contrary to another members...because they are christian and I am not.

 

I can perfectly understand not browbeating someone for believing differently, not harassing them, not deliberately aggravating them, not baiting...but being told that I cannot disagree with someone who posts in an area of the forum that allows for discussion, that seems contrary to the spirit of the forum in my opinion.  I think so long as things are kept on a civilized level, as long as things don't escalate to derision, that simple disagreement and discussion of that disagreement should be welcome.

[Geordon]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I am somehow less entitled to express my beliefs and philosophical understandings because they are contrary to another members...because they are christian and I am not.

 

What you are describing is nothing short of religious bullying.

 

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I think so long as things are kept on a civilized level, as long as things don't escalate to derision, that simple disagreement and discussion of that disagreement should be welcome.

 

I whole-heartedly agree with you here!  In fact, several years ago, when Atwater (peace be upon him) was still around, there were often discussions on various topics.  Discussions that were from different viewpoints, but not arguments.  As my mother would say, "It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable."

 

I have noticed that there is much less "without being disagreeable" than there used to be in the world, not just here. The thing that boggles my mind is that the ULC is founded on the concept of inclusion, yet some of the most vocal members of the forum are exclusionary and divisive.

[cuchulain]

12 minutes ago, Geordon said:

 

What you are describing is nothing short of religious bullying.

 

 

I whole-heartedly agree with you here!  In fact, several years ago, when Atwater (peace be upon him) was still around, there were often discussions on various topics.  Discussions that were from different viewpoints, but not arguments.  As my mother would say, "It is possible to disagree without being disagreeable."

 

I have noticed that there is much less "without being disagreeable" than there used to be in the world, not just here. The thing that boggles my mind is that the ULC is founded on the concept of inclusion, yet some of the most vocal members of the forum are exclusionary and divisive.

i remember many various phases to this forum, having originally joined with the profile name madmerlin33 in the early 2000's.  i lost the password on purpose, needing a break as sometimes happens, then lost my email for that account, so made a new one.

i remember democratis AChE, dave and some few others from then, when we had an AAG forum(almost anything goes).  that was done away with as too controversial...but sometimes the regular section comes close to what that section used to in levels of antagonizism. 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

Respect for all beliefs?  No matter how absurd?  Or morally repugnant?  There are plenty of people on YouTube who are intent on believing that the Earth is flat.  Most of them use the Bible as justification.  Are we obliged to respect their beliefs?  How about the Young Earth Creationists, who believe that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old?  Respect?  Who believe that the Earth is the center of everything.  Respect?  During  the American Civil War, preachers used Leviticus 21 to justify slavery.  Respect?  The Book of Mormon teaches the curse of Ham.  God darkens the skin of those who need punishment.  Respect?  What about the sincere belief that witches should be killed?  Respect?  That Homosexuals should be killed by throwing them off tall buildings?  Respect?  That women must submit to their husbands in all things, so that rape within marriage isn't possible.  Respect?

 

Down to specifics.  How about the Christian, who truly believes that all Atheists are doomed to Eternal Damnation?  Respect?  Well, what about the Muslims, who devoutly believe that all Christians are going to Hell, for not accepting Muhammed.  Respect?  What about the Muslims, who believe devoutly, that when a Muslim leaves Islam for Christianity -- the apostate should be put to death.  Respect?  

 

In Saudi Arabia and Iran and other places under Sharia -- Atheists are put to death by National Law.  Respect?  

 

Really?  Respect for all beliefs?  What a silly proposition.  I don't think so.  This is nothing but a deepity.  That is -- something that seems profound at first glance, but turns out to be absurd on closer inspection.  

 

 

 

 

[mererdog]

20 hours ago, cuchulain said:

 I think so long as things are kept on a civilized level, as long as things don't escalate to derision, that simple disagreement and discussion of that disagreement should be welcome.

I agree. It begs three questions-

How do we keep it from escalating?

Once it escalates, how can we deescalate?

Will we agree about what is or is not derision, when confronted with a specific example?

[Dan56]

On 5/20/2018 at 2:09 PM, cuchulain said:

I have been told the reason is that we must respect all beliefs.

 

I have to agree with Jonathan here, can a person really 'respect' something they think is crazy? I don't respect Islam, I couldn't if I tried, and I'm sure others can't respect what I believe.  But I think the idea of ULC is to respect every individuals right to believe whatever they choose.. I doubt its possible to respect something you think is absolutely wrong, that would be like telling an ugly girl that she's pretty. I guess the trick is to disagree with what someone else believes without putting them down for believing it.

[cuchulain]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I have to agree with Jonathan here, can a person really 'respect' something they think is crazy? I don't respect Islam, I couldn't if I tried, and I'm sure others can't respect what I believe.  But I think the idea of ULC is to respect every individuals right to believe whatever they choose.. I doubt its possible to respect something you think is absolutely wrong, that would be like telling an ugly girl that she's pretty. I guess the trick is to disagree with what someone else believes without putting them down for believing it.

i can dig it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

As ministers of ULC -- the church that ordains anyone who asks -- for free -- for life -- with no questions -- we are all free to believe -- or not -- anything.  We need no proofs or justification for what we do or don't believe.

 

Unless we want to change someone else.  If we want to change someone else, we must provide justification for changing beliefs.  That means providing objective, verifiable evidence.

 

 

[Geordon]

On 5/23/2018 at 2:04 AM, Dan56 said:

I don't respect Islam, I couldn't if I tried,

 

Why is this?  Secondary question:  Have you investigated the core beliefs of Islam?

 

I'm sure that we can agree that extremists of all stripes (Christian, Jewish, and Islamic) are all bad and generally inaccurate measures of the moderate majority of their respective religions, so I wonder if you have excluded the extremist POV preached by the likes of DAESH and Boko Haram and considered more moderate divisions?

[Geordon]

On 5/23/2018 at 8:09 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Unless we want to change someone else.  If we want to change someone else, we must provide justification for changing beliefs.  That means providing objective, verifiable evidence.

 

In my view, trying to change the beliefs of someone else is coercive and offensive, no matter how steeped in proselytization the particular sect is.  I feel that way specifically about Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Scientologits, and most "missionary" groups,  though I am sure that there are other religious denominations that expect their followers  to gin up  additions to the ranks of the faithful.

 

This is specifically different from someone who would put out a proverbial information table and welcome the opportunity from outsiders to discuss the faith.  I personaly consider this to be something like passive proselytizing and hold it to a much different standard to active proselytizing... A lá the Crusades.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

14 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

In my view, trying to change the beliefs of someone else is coercive and offensive, no matter how steeped in proselytization the particular sect is.  I feel that way specifically about Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Scientologits, and most "missionary" groups,  though I am sure that there are other religious denominations that expect their followers  to gin up  additions to the ranks of the faithful.

 

This is specifically different from someone who would put out a proverbial information table and welcome the opportunity from outsiders to discuss the faith.  I personaly consider this to be something like passive proselytizing and hold it to a much different standard to active proselytizing... A lá the Crusades.

 

 

In the Gospels, the risen Christ commands his followers to "spread the Good News".  The godless have no such obligation.

 

 

Over the years, I have met various kinds of Polytheists.  None of them were ever concerned over the beliefs of others.  None of them ever tried to tell me that I was on the wrong path.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 25, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[cuchulain]

21 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

 

In the Gospels, the risen Christ commands his followers to "spread the Good News".  The godless have no such obligation.

 

 

Over the years, I have met various kinds of Polytheists.  None of them were ever concerned over the beliefs of others.  None of them ever tried to tell me that I was on the wrong path.

 

 

 

 

i worked in a gas station when i was a druid, wore tge triskele regularly.  a self proclaimed witch came in shopping with her husband and misbehaving child, whom she told 'be good or i'll turn you into a toad'...i was never more embarassed to call myself pagan than with this woman's blatant stupidity and her inflicting it on the next generation while trying to be impressive.  almosgt anti proselytizing, by effect.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

i worked in a gas station when i was a druid, wore tge triskele regularly.  a self proclaimed witch came in shopping with her husband and misbehaving child, whom she told 'be good or i'll turn you into a toad'...i was never more embarassed to call myself pagan than with this woman's blatant stupidity and her inflicting it on the next generation while trying to be impressive.  almosgt anti proselytizing, by effect.

 

 

Yes.  Just so.  A lot of Christians have weird, silly fantasies, about Witches, Pagans, magic, the occult, etc.  It has all the reality of a Halloween witch riding on her broom.  It is an affliction that real Pagans have to endure.  Even ex-Pagans, who remember some of the drooling morons that they have encountered.  

 

Christians can be a weird lot.  Who else would accuse Atheists of worshipping Satan?  Of course, they don't get Pagans.

 

Edited May 26, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Dan56]

On 5/25/2018 at 1:12 AM, Geordon said:

 

Why is this?  Secondary question:  Have you investigated the core beliefs of Islam?

 

I'm sure that we can agree that extremists of all stripes (Christian, Jewish, and Islamic) are all bad and generally inaccurate measures of the moderate majority of their respective religions, so I wonder if you have excluded the extremist POV preached by the likes of DAESH and Boko Haram and considered more moderate divisions?

 

I used Islam as an example, but my point was that I don't respect any religion outside of my own. That's the curse of Monotheism 😊. That's not to say that I don't respect free choice and everyone's right to belief what they want, but just that I can't respect something I don't agree with, believe is not true, or would ever accept myself.

 

That said, the Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims (Jews & Christians). So while Muhammad taught to seek out and kill your enemies (Quran 9:5), Christ taught to love and pray for your enemies (Matthew 5:44). Two diametrically opposing views. 

Edited May 27, 2018 by Dan56

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

10 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

 

I used Islam as an example, but my point was that I don't respect any religion outside of my own. That's the curse of Monotheism 😊. That's not to say that I don't respect free choice and everyone's right to belief what they want, but just that I can't respect something I don't agree with, believe is not true, or would ever accept myself.

 

That said, the Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims (Jews & Christians). So while Muhammad taught to seek out and kill your enemies (Quran 9:5), Christ taught to love and pray for your enemies (Matthew 5:44). Two diametrically opposing views. 

Thank you for your honesty.  Why are you here?

 

 

[Dan56]

4 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Thank you for your honesty.  Why are you here?

 

I reckon I'm here for the same reason you are.. Just answering questions,  throwing my opinions around, and saying what I think.

[Key]

13 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

I used Islam as an example, but my point was that I don't respect any religion outside of my own. That's the curse of Monotheism 😊. That's not to say that I don't respect free choice and everyone's right to belief what they want, but just that I can't respect something I don't agree with, believe is not true, or would ever accept myself.

 

That said, the Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims (Jews & Christians). So while Muhammad taught to seek out and kill your enemies (Quran 9:5), Christ taught to love and pray for your enemies (Matthew 5:44). Two diametrically opposing views. 

From what I hear, ironically, Muhammad called Jesus his brother and prophet. How's that for contrasting messages?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Key said:

From what I hear, ironically, Muhammad called Jesus his brother and prophet. How's that for contrasting messages?

 

I've done some reading in the Koran.  Much like the Bible; good and bad stuff.  They can both be cherry picked to prove anything.    There is a lot of content about Damnation for the unbeliever.

 

 

1 hour ago, Key said:

 

 

[Geordon]

On 5/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, Dan56 said:

I used Islam as an example, but my point was that I don't respect any religion outside of my own. That's the curse hubris of Monotheism

 

FTFY

 

On 5/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, Dan56 said:

I can't respect something I don't agree with, believe is not true, or would ever accept myself.

 

This describes a lack of compassion.  Oh, how I wish I had digital access to the OED!  Anyway...  There is a difference between a lack of acceptance (i.e. def 1.4 and 2) and a lack of respect (definition 2).  I do not accept Christianity, Islam, Atheism, etc ad nauseam.  I do, however, respect them.

 

On 5/27/2018 at 3:06 AM, Dan56 said:

That said, the Quran contains at least 109 verses that speak of war with nonbelievers, usually on the basis of their status as non-Muslims (Jews & Christians). So while Muhammad taught to seek out and kill your enemies (Quran 9:5),

 

Citations and full context needed, starting with the definition of what makes for nonbelievers.  A quick search for 9:5 resulted me in this page: Verse (9:5) - English Translation. Note the mention of Allah being forgiving and merciful, similar to what I understand about the Christian God.  

 

However, forgiveness (drill down to forgive, def 1, 1.1, 1.2) and mercy (def. 1) are not to be had by those that either Allah or God have deemed unworthy.  See Romans 3:23 and  Romans 3:24, and contrast Romans 1:18, as opposed to your reference to Quran 9:5 and contrast 17:25.  

 

With enough desire, time and effort, it is likely that I could find more passages from both The Bible and The Qur'an to support both sides of the same question within each text.  Or, to put it another way, I could almost certainly find plenty of internal contradictions in both texts.  The same with The Torah, but that's just the Old Testament written out long hand.

 

17 hours ago, Key said:

From what I hear, ironically, Muhammad called Jesus his brother and prophet. 

 

I'll do you one more!  Read what His Holiness, the Dalai Lama said about "Faith in Buddhism and Christianity."

 

16 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I've done some reading in the Koran.  Much like the Bible; good and bad stuff.

 

Out of curiosity, have you read any of the Pentatuch? 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, Geordon said:

 

FTFY

 

 

This describes a lack of compassion.  Oh, how I wish I had digital access to the OED!  Anyway...  There is a difference between a lack of acceptance (i.e. def 1.4 and 2) and a lack of respect (definition 2).  I do not accept Christianity, Islam, Atheism, etc ad nauseam.  I do, however, respect them.

 

 

Citations and full context needed, starting with the definition of what makes for nonbelievers.  A quick search for 9:5 resulted me in this page: Verse (9:5) - English Translation. Note the mention of Allah being forgiving and merciful, similar to what I understand about the Christian God.  

 

However, forgiveness (drill down to forgive, def 1, 1.1, 1.2) and mercy (def. 1) are not to be had by those that either Allah or God have deemed unworthy.  See Romans 3:23 and  Romans 3:24, and contrast Romans 1:18, as opposed to your reference to Quran 9:5 and contrast 17:25.  

 

With enough desire, time and effort, it is likely that I could find more passages from both The Bible and The Qur'an to support both sides of the same question within each text.  Or, to put it another way, I could almost certainly find plenty of internal contradictions in both texts.  The same with The Torah, but that's just the Old Testament written out long hand.

 

 

I'll do you one more!  Read what His Holiness, the Dalai Lama said about "Faith in Buddhism and Christianity."

 

 

Out of curiosity, have you read any of the Pentatuch? 

 

 

 

Most of it.  Several times.  I skimmed my way through the begats.  Instructions for the building of the Temple were a snooze.

 

A lot of the prophets were about the war against Paganism.  Isaiah in particular.  A master piece of dirty propaganda.

 

It's been a while since I looked it up.  Kings?  It's some great comic material.  I suggest looking up the Witch of Endor.

 

     King Solomon is upset.  He wants to talk things over with Samuel.  His dreams aren't working and the Urim and Thumim have failed him, so he want's to talk to Samuel's ghost.  He can't.  He has already had all the spirit mediums put to death.  The man at his elbow has news for the King.  "Majesty?  I know a woman with  a familiar spirit."

 

     Think of this in modern terms.  The President is really stressed out.  He needs to score some grass.  But what can he do?  His war on drugs has been so successful.  The man at his elbow says -- "Mr. President?  I know a dealer who can get us some really prime stuff.  Anything you want."

 

     Some things really don't change.  It's all there -- if we can read between the lines.