a common atheist fallacy

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

The bible tolerates evil, and occasionally uses evil to bring about a greater good, but if you read the final chapters, evil does not come along, its ultimately destroyed.

 

 

 

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

This thread has drifted without resolution.

 

Does anybody on this board - think that an Atheist needs to justify non-belief?  

 

I say -- "No."

Edited July 23, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Seeker]

Surely non-belief is more agnosticism.

 

Atheism I take as more of an active disbelief, and I think there is some call to enquire why. Not a requirement, but sufficient interest to merit a thread.

 

 

[Brother Kaman]

3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This thread has drifted without resolution.

 

Does anybody on this board - think that an Atheist needs to justify non-belief?  

 

I say -- "No."

I do not think anyone should have to justify their belief outside a court of law and then it would only be because the law required it (voice from G/god told me it was my calling to kill unbelievers or something similar). As far as having to justify a non belief? Do I have to justify why I don't believe something? Where would that end? I dont believe I like liver, mac and cheese or rocky mountain oysters. Do I have to justify that? Where would it end? There are many, many things I don't believe. I would not waste my time trying to justify any of them.

[cuchulain]

2 hours ago, Seeker said:

Surely non-belief is more agnosticism.

 

Atheism I take as more of an active disbelief, and I think there is some call to enquire why. Not a requirement, but sufficient interest to merit a thread.

 

 

atheism is defined as lacking belief in theism, or deity.  i do not actively disbelieve, i'm not sure what that would entail. i simply don't believe in any deity. 

 

agnosticism is a person who neither disbelieves nor has faith in a god.

 

asking why i don't believe in god is almost bigotry to the thousands of deities left out of the question.  at best, not specific enough i.e. which god?  and if a person wants to waste the time asking about every deity, that's a long wait.  why not zeus, marduk kurios, ishtar, innanna, etc...?  i start at the position of not believing and leave it up to the proselytizer to prove their deity, not me disproving thousands of religions.  and the classic logic...it up to the person making a claim to prove it.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, Seeker said:

Surely non-belief is more agnosticism.

 

Atheism I take as more of an active disbelief, and I think there is some call to enquire why. Not a requirement, but sufficient interest to merit a thread.

 

 

 

 

We are using basic words in different ways.  I'm not the nuance police.  I would like to go over a few words, so that you will know what I mean by them.  Usage will vary.  This is my list.

 

Agnostic:  It means I don't know whether of not God exists.  It has nothing to do with faith or belief.  Agnostic answers a different question.  Do you think that God exists?

 

Atheist:  It means, I don't believe that God exists.  It has nothing to do with knowing.  Atheism is about belief.  It answers a specific question.  Do you believe that God exist?  It is simple non-belief.  There is nothing to challenge.  It's like demanding to know why someone doesn't play golf.

 

Anti-Theist:  This is the person who would say -- I have a positive belief, that God does not exist.  This is the person who might have something to say, if you want to ask -- "Why do you believe that?"  Another distinction worth noting.  Because the Anti-Theist is making an affirmative faith statement -- "I believe that God does not exist" -- the Anti-Theist has the same burden of proof as any other true believer.

 

There is also Apatheist:  I don't care whether or not God exists.

 

Agnostic Atheist:  I don't know and I don't believe.

 

This is the time to bring up the Dawkins scale, created by Richard Dawkins.  On a scale of 1 through 7, with 1 being absolute certitude that God exists -- and 7 being absolute certitude that God does not exist -- Dawkins identifies his own position as 6.9.  That makes Dawkins an Agnostic Atheist.  On this scale, 4.0 gives equal weight to the probability of God's existence and non-existence.  

 

There is an element of confusion here.  Richard Dawkins clearly is using Agnostic in a different sense of the word.  His usage is common.  That is part of the confusion.  Different people do use these words differently.  In addition, English is a living language.  In a living language, words shift in meaning over time.  It can't be helped.

 

Agnostic Atheist Apatheist:  I don't know, I don't believe and I don't care.

 

Other permutations are possible.

Edited July 23, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

atheism is defined as lacking belief in theism, or deity.  i do not actively disbelieve, i'm not sure what that would entail. i simply don't believe in any deity. 

 

agnosticism is a person who neither disbelieves nor has faith in a god.

 

asking why i don't believe in god is almost bigotry to the thousands of deities left out of the question.  at best, not specific enough i.e. which god?  and if a person wants to waste the time asking about every deity, that's a long wait.  why not zeus, marduk kurios, ishtar, innanna, etc...?  i start at the position of not believing and leave it up to the proselytizer to prove their deity, not me disproving thousands of religions.  and the classic logic...it up to the person making a claim to prove it.

 

 

Yes.  My favorite definition of an Atheist, is someone who has one less god than a Monotheist.  As Michael Shermer comments -- The Atheist just takes it one god further.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

5 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

I do not think anyone should have to justify their belief outside a court of law and then it would only be because the law required it (voice from G/god told me it was my calling to kill unbelievers or something similar). As far as having to justify a non belief? Do I have to justify why I don't believe something? Where would that end? I dont believe I like liver, mac and cheese or rocky mountain oysters. Do I have to justify that? Where would it end? There are many, many things I don't believe. I would not waste my time trying to justify any of them.

 

 

You're right of course.  Nobody is required to justify their beliefs.  It doesn't stop the Anti-Theists -- or the Pious -- from making unreasonable demands.  In my brief time as member of various Facebook Atheist groups --  basic patterns emerged.  Various holier than thou types would burst in -- in print -- demanding that the Atheists in the group put up their best defense of Atheism.  It happened it lot.  Sometimes, the insufferable lout would be Christian -- and sometimes Muslim.  It kept happening over and over again -- as though for the first time.

 

It was never a Hindu, making these nasty demands.  Never a Polytheist or any type of Pagan or Heathen.  Never a Buddhist or Jain.  Never a Pantheist.  Never a Satanist or Luciferian.  Never a follower of the Flying Spaghetti Monster or the Invisible Pink Unicorn,  or Jedi, or the Dude.  Or the Church of Google.  Just Christian and Muslim crap for brains.  It was a great lesson.  Not the lesson that they intended.  

 

I do so despise cultural and religious bullies.

 

Edited July 23, 2018 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[mererdog]

On 7/23/2018 at 9:42 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Does anybody on this board - think that an Atheist needs to justify non-belief?  

Needs are just wants in disguise. Non-belief needs to be justified if that is how to get what you want. So, really, the question is "What is there to gain, if anything, by justifying non-belief?" I can think of two answers.

 

1. Self-knowledge. Justifying your position can force you to examine it critically. It can make you try to understand why you think the way you do.

 

2. The understanding of others. Justifying your position can help others relate to you better. It can make it easier for them to see you as a person, rather than a stereotype.

 

Now, neither of these benefits are automatic, nor are they ever guaranteed. But, in certain circumstances, making the effort to justify your position (whatever it happens to be) is the only thing that can do the job. So the trick is figuring out when the effort is useful and when it is wasted- which requires an acknowledgement that is neither always wasted nor always useful.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, mererdog said:

Needs are just wants in disguise. Non-belief needs to be justified if that is how to get what you want. So, really, the question is "What is there to gain, if anything, by justifying non-belief?" I can think of two answers.

 

1. Self-knowledge. Justifying your position can force you to examine it critically. It can make you try to understand why you think the way you do.

 

2. The understanding of others. Justifying your position can help others relate to you better. It can make it easier for them to see you as a person, rather than a stereotype.

 

Now, neither of these benefits are automatic, nor are they ever guaranteed. But, in certain circumstances, making the effort to justify your position (whatever it happens to be) is the only thing that can do the job. So the trick is figuring out when the effort is useful and when it is wasted- which requires an acknowledgement that is neither always wasted nor always useful.

 

You're serious.  You think  that I need to justify my non-belief in the Biblical God.  What about all the other gods that I don't believe in?  Jack Frost; Old Man Winter; Father Time; Death, Mother Nature; Lady Luck; Old Man Winter; Santa Claus; The Invisible Pink Unicorn; the Flying Spaghetti Monster: etc. ad nauseum.  No.  there is a difference between poetic imagery and external existence.  As metaphor, they all exist.  In reality, none of them exist.  It's a silly argument and I'm done with it.

 

 

[mererdog]

41 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

You think  that I need to justify my non-belief in the Biblical God.

I didn't say or imply that you need to do anything. I said that some people will sometimes need to. Some people will sometimes need 50 feet of rope, but that does not mean that you do. I don't claim to know your desires or your circumstances well enough to know what you need, asside from the biological basics.

I don't need to justify my lack of belief. So I usually don't. I occasionally do, simply because I can enjoy the experience. If you don't need to do it, and you don't like doing it, why let others goad you into doing it?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

4 hours ago, mererdog said:

I didn't say or imply that you need to do anything. I said that some people will sometimes need to. Some people will sometimes need 50 feet of rope, but that does not mean that you do. I don't claim to know your desires or your circumstances well enough to know what you need, asside from the biological basics.

I don't need to justify my lack of belief. So I usually don't. I occasionally do, simply because I can enjoy the experience. If you don't need to do it, and you don't like doing it, why let others goad you into doing it?

 

I used to.  Then I advanced to Apatheism.  That's short for -- I don't give a crap and I'm tired of arguing.  

[Seeker]

Yet here you are.

 

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 minutes ago, Seeker said:

Yet here you are.

 

 

 

Yes.  Here I am.  This is my church.  The only place I discuss such matters.

 

 

[mererdog]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:26 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I used to.  Then I advanced to Apatheism.  That's short for -- I don't give a crap and I'm tired of arguing.  

From my point of view, you seem to still be trying to justify it. "What about all the other gods that I don't believe in?" You see how I read that as defensive?

Your explanation of Apatheism tends to feel the same way. You go past "I don't care" into "It doesn't matter" and the whole thing ends up feeling like someone trying to justify themself with the classic "Leave me alone! I'm not hurting anything!"

And no value judgment here. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with justifying it, nor am I calling you a liar or a hypocrite.

To be completely frank, when someone goes out of their way to tell me that they don't care about something, it makes me think that they really, really care about it. That probably says more about me than you, but I like talking about myself, so....

Edited July 29, 2018 by mererdog

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

40 minutes ago, mererdog said:

From my point of view, you seem to still be trying to justify it. "What about all the other gods that I don't believe in?" You see how I read that as defensive?

Your explanation of Apatheism tends to feel the same way. You go past "I don't care" into "It doesn't matter" and the whole thing ends up feeling like someone trying to justify themself with the classic "Leave me alone! I'm not hurting anything!"

And no value judgment here. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with justifying it, nor am I calling you a liar or a hypocrite.

To be completely frank, when someone goes out of their way to tell me that they don't care about something, it makes me think that they really, really care about it. That probably says more about me than you, but I like talking about myself, so....

 

As you wish.  It doesn't matter.  I don't care.  I'm tired of arguing.