The non(s) have it - or do they?

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, cuchulain said:

If they have to keep records anyway, why not keep the records...and tax them?  Why do churches get special tax exemption?  I guess they consider their work charitable, and I think that even on individual tax returns you can claim charity exemptions, but I don't see why.

 

The presumption behind all nonprofits, is that they are making a contribution to society.       

 

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

Hmmmm....I have been to some lovely church events and ....some of the worst gossip sessions I have ever heard - in church basements.   I think they offer (some of them) a WIDE array of social venues.   They raise lots of money and constantly need to expand the empire to feed the growing list of staff to support all that. 

 

It can often be accomplished without the tithing requirements too - maybe?

If it can be - than why not have the churches focused on spiritual betterment and do it effectively?

I am not sure the diluted efforts is making current church structures very effective as anything more than a social club. 

Maybe.....jus mulling it over a bit. 

 

von

 

 

 

 

 

In fairness, any organization run by people is going to be flawed.  The higher the aspirations of the group, the more obvious the failings.

 

This is not a church failing.  It's a Human reality.  

 

 

[VonNoble]

2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

In fairness, any organization run by people is going to be flawed.  The higher the aspirations of the group, the more obvious the failings.

 

This is not a church failing.  It's a Human reality.  

 

 

 

If that is the case....then how do we comprehend the projection that those belonging to churches some how behave with superior morality over those who do not attend churches?  If there is no proven record of higher charitable impact by churches (over non-churches) - - no measurable social rewards, spiritual enrichment ...if they are just like everyone else - what is the point of having them?   (not the accusation some might read into it...quite the contrary) ...it is more of a real question re: the reasoning behind granting them so many "passes" not given to any other entity...including the LARGE impact on politics.   Any other entity is regulated more in regards to politics.    That tax-free status has allowed a bunch of money to be funneled into political action type places......

 

One just has to wonder a bit about if the non -church folks aren't taking a bit of a hit merely because they are not grouping and funding the "non-church" folk agenda...maybe    

 

It may be completely wrong...but it is worth considering....it has evolved over time....like most things and maybe the non-church folks should at least look at it.   Is the privilege once afforded one group as a courtesy now applicable and justified? 

 

von

[cuchulain]

i believe it to be habit formed over thousands of years of suppression of the average or lay person by the church that consistently denied the lay person the ability to access religion by themselves, which since the advent of the printing press and mass media giving that access, has continued to erode.  the more we learn the less we believe.  i doubt that before the printing press, anywhere NEAR the numbers of Atheists existed or would have admitted so.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

3 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

If that is the case....then how do we comprehend the projection that those belonging to churches some how behave with superior morality over those who do not attend churches?  If there is no proven record of higher charitable impact by churches (over non-churches) - - no measurable social rewards, spiritual enrichment ...if they are just like everyone else - what is the point of having them?   (not the accusation some might read into it...quite the contrary) ...it is more of a real question re: the reasoning behind granting them so many "passes" not given to any other entity...including the LARGE impact on politics.   Any other entity is regulated more in regards to politics.    That tax-free status has allowed a bunch of money to be funneled into political action type places......

 

 

 

Quote

One just has to wonder a bit about if the non -church folks aren't taking a bit of a hit merely because they are not grouping and funding the "non-church" folk agenda...maybe    

 

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

It may be completely wrong...but it is worth considering....it has evolved over time....like most things and maybe the non-church folks should at least look at it.   Is the privilege once afforded one group as a courtesy now applicable and justified? 

 

von

 

You are now asking a different question than when you started.

 

Psalm 5:5

The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Psalm 14:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

Psalm 53:1

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

There are more Scriptures explaining why Church folk are superior.  Do you want them?

 

Not that those good people are being smug or arrogant or bigots.   God said it.

 

Speaking of which:

 

Isaiah 45:23

I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

That is the problem with inerrant Scripture.  The ugly and horrible never goes away.    In answer to your question, that is how this particular projection is explained.  This is why the church membership think that they are better than everyone else.  God said so.

 

Now, my question.  Why should secular people be subsidizing churches?

 

 

     

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[Brother Kaman]

5 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

If that is the case....then how do we comprehend the projection that those belonging to churches some how behave with superior morality over those who do not attend churches?  If there is no proven record of higher charitable impact by churches (over non-churches) - - no measurable social rewards, spiritual enrichment ...if they are just like everyone else - what is the point of having them?   (not the accusation some might read into it...quite the contrary) ...it is more of a real question re: the reasoning behind granting them so many "passes" not given to any other entity...including the LARGE impact on politics.   Any other entity is regulated more in regards to politics.    That tax-free status has allowed a bunch of money to be funneled into political action type places......

 

One just has to wonder a bit about if the non -church folks aren't taking a bit of a hit merely because they are not grouping and funding the "non-church" folk agenda...maybe    

 

It may be completely wrong...but it is worth considering....it has evolved over time....like most things and maybe the non-church folks should at least look at it.   Is the privilege once afforded one group as a courtesy now applicable and justified? 

 

von

There are a good many non profits that are also non religious that do as much or more for the poor than churches.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

There are a good many non profits that are also non religious that do as much or more for the poor than churches.

 

 

Yes.  They do.  And they do it without preaching.  

 

 

China has it's own tradition of "rice Christians".  The poor would pray until the rice ran out.  Then they would lose interest.

 

 

Edited November 24, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

This is why the church membership think that they are better than everyone else.  God said so.

 

Now, my question.  Why should secular people be subsidizing churches?

 

 

     

 

BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.... at least is 

an understandable reason-so I thank you for that.... I don’t have to agree.... but I do appreciate understanding.

 

Your question...why should secular people be subsidizing churches?

 

THAT is a pertinent question!

von

[VonNoble]

2 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:

There are a good many non profits that are also non religious that do as much or more for the poor than churches.

Excellent point!

 

thx.  von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

11 hours ago, VonNoble said:

 

BECAUSE GOD SAID SO.... at least is 

an understandable reason-so I thank you for that.... I don’t have to agree.... but I do appreciate understanding.

 

Your question...why should secular people be subsidizing churches?

 

THAT is a pertinent question!

von

 

 

Because life isn't fair.

 

Because the vested interests in power, make the rules.  

 

 

[Dan56]

On 11/24/2017 at 7:15 PM, VonNoble said:

Your question...why should secular people be subsidizing churches?

 

THAT is a pertinent question!

von

 

Technically, they don't subsidize ( financially support ) churches, they just pay taxes that tax exempt organizations don't.  Keep in mind that in 2013, the government said that atheist leaders can be ministers too, since atheism can function as a religion. So leaders of an atheist organization may qualify for the exemption. Its also notable that in 2012, the IRS unjustifiably scrutinized against conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status... Imo, its all bs, I think everyone should pay the same, no exceptions or exemptions for anyone, that's equality.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Technically, they don't subsidize ( financially support ) churches, they just pay taxes that tax exempt organizations don't.  Keep in mind that in 2013, the government said that atheist leaders can be ministers too, since atheism can function as a religion. So leaders of an atheist organization may qualify for the exemption. Its also notable that in 2012, the IRS unjustifiably scrutinized against conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status... Imo, its all bs, I think everyone should pay the same, no exceptions or exemptions for anyone, that's equality.

 

 

When the churches don't pay, everybody else picks up their slack.  Yes.  There are other thieves gaming the system.  Some of those other thieves might well be Atheist groups.  That hardly justifies church theft.  Even less so, if the churches want to pretend that they have the moral high ground.  It seems  that they would rather have the money.  Like any other thief.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

Technically, they don't subsidize ( financially support ) churches, they just pay taxes that tax exempt organizations don't.  Keep in mind that in 2013, the government said that atheist leaders can be ministers too, since atheism can function as a religion. So leaders of an atheist organization may qualify for the exemption. Its also notable that in 2012, the IRS unjustifiably scrutinized against conservative groups seeking tax-exempt status... Imo, its all bs, I think everyone should pay the same, no exceptions or exemptions for anyone, that's equality.

Dan...I am actually  not clear or sure on this point.   If two retail shops a mile apart are selling Bibles for the same price.    One is a church gift shop and one a bookstore.    If the churches is exempt from paying taxes on profits.... not paying for public services of roads etc.... I am not certain (read that as I don’t know) if some of those things ( if they exist at all) would not be a form of subsidy.

 

It is a much bigger issue if churches somehow circumvent paying taxes on profits.  I am really just not understanding if they do or not.    Do they declare profits from the childcare, coffee shops, raffles, dances, bingo etc?   Or does all of that just end up gratis in a big operating slush fund?   I think that murky area might raise some issues maybe.

 

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

37 minutes ago, VonNoble said:

Dan...I am actually  not clear or sure on this point.   If two retail shops a mile apart are selling Bibles for the same price.    One is a church gift shop and one a bookstore.    If the churches is exempt from paying taxes on profits.... not paying for public services of roads etc.... I am not certain (read that as I don’t know) if some of those things ( if they exist at all) would not be a form of subsidy.

 

It is a much bigger issue if churches somehow circumvent paying taxes on profits.  I am really just not understanding if they do or not.    Do they declare profits from the childcare, coffee shops, raffles, dances, bingo etc?   Or does all of that just end up gratis in a big operating slush fund?   I think that murky area might raise some issues maybe.

 

von

 

If you think it's murky now; just wait until the Johnson Amendment is destroyed.  The churches themselves will become political slush funds.

 

Then again, nothing sanitizes quite like Sunshine.

 

John 8:32 [Full Chapter]

And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

19 hours ago, VonNoble said:

Dan...I am actually  not clear or sure on this point.   If two retail shops a mile apart are selling Bibles for the same price.    One is a church gift shop and one a bookstore.    If the churches is exempt from paying taxes on profits.... not paying for public services of roads etc.... I am not certain (read that as I don’t know) if some of those things ( if they exist at all) would not be a form of subsidy.

 

It is a much bigger issue if churches somehow circumvent paying taxes on profits.  I am really just not understanding if they do or not.    Do they declare profits from the childcare, coffee shops, raffles, dances, bingo etc?   Or does all of that just end up gratis in a big operating slush fund?   I think that murky area might raise some issues maybe.

 

von

 

A church has 501c3 tax exempt status, so they pay no taxes on profit or even property taxes, a book store is not eligible for that.

 

A subsidy is usually considered a monetary gift, so subsidies or being subsidized is receiving financial aid.  Since churches don't get government money, I don't consider them subsidized. But as you say, giving them a free ride, is a form of monetary relief, the government is giving them money by not requiring them to be taxed.. if you itemize your personal tax deductions on IRS Schedule A, you can even write-off donations to a church, so religious congregations are eligible for tax breaks too. It pays to be religious in America.

[VonNoble]

1 hour ago, Dan56 said:

 

A church has 501c3 tax exempt status, so they pay no taxes on profit or even property taxes, a book store is not eligible for that.

 

A subsidy is usually considered a monetary gift, so subsidies or being subsidized is receiving financial aid.  Since churches don't get government money, I don't consider them subsidized. But as you say, giving them a free ride, is a form of monetary relief, the government is giving them money by not requiring them to be taxed.. if you itemize your personal tax deductions on IRS Schedule A, you can even write-off donations to a church, so religious congregations are eligible for tax breaks too. It pays to be religious in America.

  ...good one

....or the reverse would also be true....you are penalized for not joining up.... 

... which is ironic in a place guaranteeing freedoms of and from religion.... still pretty great nation to live in....way better than most....

 

thx for the clarification

von

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

2 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

A church has 501c3 tax exempt status, so they pay no taxes on profit or even property taxes, a book store is not eligible for that.

 

A subsidy is usually considered a monetary gift, so subsidies or being subsidized is receiving financial aid.  Since churches don't get government money, I don't consider them subsidized. But as you say, giving them a free ride, is a form of monetary relief, the government is giving them money by not requiring them to be taxed.. if you itemize your personal tax deductions on IRS Schedule A, you can even write-off donations to a church, so religious congregations are eligible for tax breaks too. It pays to be religious in America.

 

Yes.  Crime does pay.  Otherwise, there would be no criminals.  So much for the moral high ground.  So much for being in the world, but not of it.

 

 

 

[Dan56]

12 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Yes.  Crime does pay.  Otherwise, there would be no criminals.  So much for the moral high ground.  So much for being in the world, but not of it.

 

Not a crime, perfectly legal.. Political influence has benefits.. Self-interest (money) often takes precedence over moral high ground. Jesus said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. So apparently, God owns the money, not the US Treasury, and you can't tax God... "In God We Trust" takes on a whole new meaning.  

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

6 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 

Not a crime, perfectly legal.. Political influence has benefits.. 1.  Self-interest (money) often takes precedence over moral high ground. Jesus said to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. So apparently, God owns the money, not the US Treasury, 2.  and you can't tax God...   3.  "In God We Trust" takes on a whole new meaning.  

 

1.  Yes.  It does.  What is a church without moral high ground?  I will rephrase.  What does it profit a church to gain the whole world -- and lose it's soul?  

 

2.  I don't want to tax God.  I want to see the churches get taxed.  

 

3.  "In God we trust.  Everybody else pays cash."  

 

 

[mererdog]

On 11/25/2017 at 7:14 PM, Dan56 said:

... Imo, its all bs, I think everyone should pay the same, no exceptions or exemptions for anyone, that's equality.

Its also religious liberty. Your religious views should be irrelevant to how you are treated by the government. It should merit neither punishment nor reward. The same is true for the religion of every individual and every group. Anything else opens the door for unfair favoritism and outright oppression.