When reality strikes?

[Pete]

http://travel.aol.co.uk/2016/03/13/man-mauled-buttocks-lions-trying-prove-god-save-him/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cuk%7Cdl8%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D439223

Lucky to be alive,,

[Dan56]

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God" (or a lion)

[Songster]

HAHAHAHAAAAAAA!  Walking up to a pride of lions while they're feeding is putting yourself on the dessert menu....

 

[cuchulain]

Kind of like the snake handlers, isn't it?  Well, the sad thing is this person is going to continue to think like this, and just believe they didn't have enough faith, you know?

[Pete]

19 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

Kind of like the snake handlers, isn't it?  Well, the sad thing is this person is going to continue to think like this, and just believe they didn't have enough faith, you know?

It brings up a point. When I had polio as a child my parents were told the reason the preacher could not heal me was because my parents did not have enough faith. I suppose according to that measure neither did he or the congregation who were present. 

As for snake handlers it seems many of those get bitten and it is often the minister. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2665177/Snake-handling-pastor-kicked-church-buildings-owner.html

I also remember being told that Richard Bandler, a co founder of NLP (non religious),  managed to convince some reporters that the reason they could not walk through walls was because of their self limiting beliefs. They had a few goes before giving up. 

I guess its nature's way of weeding out the weak links. 

[mererdog]

So the thing to be wary of is having too much faith in yourself, at least in terms of whether you have enough faith in God to move mountains?

[Gruffydd y Dryw]

On ‎3‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 4:47 PM, cuchulain said:

Kind of like the snake handlers, isn't it?  Well, the sad thing is this person is going to continue to think like this, and just believe they didn't have enough faith, you know?

I was raised as a Pentecostal, and I remember there was still a stigma of being associated with the snake handlers who were also Pentecostals. But we were always taught that picking up a snake was not an act of faith but tempting God (as in Dan's quote). We believed in faith healing and other miraculous things, but we did not believe if someone didn't get better it was due to a lack of faith. We were taught that God has a plan, and while we may not understand it there was a reason for it.

Of course as a teenager I left Christianity behind, but this story just reminded me of things I had encountered in my youth. BTW, although I am not a Christian, I would mention I have seen faith healing in action, and it is not always bogus

Bendithion (Blessings),

Gruffydd y Dryw /|\

[Pete]

The church who did say about my parents faith and my lack of healing was a Elim Pentecostal church based in Plymouth in the UK. However that was nearly 60 years ago. I also got that same opinion from a Elim church in Hull 30 years ago. The one in Hull, UK, also said the devil was present and my parents had to drive him out before anything could be done. That caused my parents to leave the church they had been in for years. Now I can accept your church maybe different but I stand by what I have said.

[Gruffydd y Dryw]

Hi Pete ,

Please forgive me; I did not mean to imply I was questioning what you said. I have no doubt you encountered those things. My experiences were at a Southern U.S. Pentecostal church in the 1970's and 1980's. The same church that taught homosexuality was a form of demon oppression or possession and wanted to cast the demon out when I was fifteen. They believed in the reality of angels and demons, faith healing, and prophesying. I left Christianity behind as a teenager over the issues of homosexuality and the concept of Hell

Bendithion (Blessings),

Gruffydd y Dryw /|\

Edited March 17, 2016 by Gruffydd y Dryw

[Pete]

No worries friend.

It is hard for gay people in many churches. I left the baptist church for similar reasons. I accepted that someone who was gay was as much a product of nature as I am. I did not believe the idea of God not loving them or that God caused them to be that way out of punishment for their "fallen ways". Most of all in their eyes I challenged the view that the bible was always right. I trained as a counsellor and wanted to learn how to be a pastoral counsellor. I was told that if a gay person came along with a problem I was to help them to not be gay before dealing with any other issue they came with. I just said that I did not believe counselling could change someone's sexuality and I just do not believe it to be a sin. I also believe it to be a betrayal of the client in that I was enforcing an agenda upon them that they did want or had come for. The sustained hostile reaction I was met with afterwards and which sent me to coventry in the church led me to question more things. Things that out of loyalty I did not question before. I remember talking to people and one of the elders would then come over and take them away from me. A guest speaker was horrified by the aggression she received because she spoke with me. We were both nurses and it seemed natural to talk about her experiences as a nurse in the troubles in Northern Ireland. I stopped going after that.  Now I accept that churches differ from one another and some would have been more accepting but I just could not go back to the church. I have seen some who say they were healed of cancer by a church but their x rays sadly said different. I have seen people suffering from terrible mental illnesses who were taught that was caused by their sin. I remember one lady who was a devout baptist who had suffered terrible pain for years from cancer who eventually stopped eating and drinking and died. Her family then said she was going to hell for killing herself. I personally feel that church healing is no more than a placebo affect. I remember seeing a documentary with RIchard Dawkins in Lourds  where thousands would come to be healed each year but the actual people healed were so very few that it could not justify any healing process was taking place. Most can tell of an individual who became well but they do not look at the many who did not get well or compare that with those who do not go to church. People do get healed from chronic illnesses sometimes but I do not see an increase in those who attended a church and those who do not. I expect that if sufferers were to sue churches who declared them healed when they were not we would have even less claims of success. 

Quote:-

"Negative impact on public health[edit]

Reliance on faith healing to the exclusion of other forms of treatment can have a public health impact when it reduces or eliminates access to modern medical techniques.^[g][h][i] This is evident in both higher mortality rates for children^[9] and in reduced life expectancy for adults.^[10] Critics have also made note of serious injury that has resulted from falsely labelled "healings", where patients erroneously consider themselves cured and cease or withdraw from treatment.^[3][j] For example, at least six people have died after faith healing by their church and being told they had been healed of HIV and could stop taking their medications.^[80] It is the stated position of the AMA that "prayer as therapy should not delay access to traditional medical care".^[77] Choosing faith healing while rejecting modern medicine can and does cause people to die needlessly.^[81]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faith_healing

If faith healing was so successful then surely the deaths would be less in those who went to church as opposed to those who went to hospital but the facts just do not support this. I accept that positive beliefs of any sort can help aid recovery even if it does not actually bring about that recovery. Yet until I see credible figures that support the case of faith healers then I do view them as charlatans and making a living out of tricking people who suffer. 

Others are welcome to disagree and I am sure some will, but I stand by this view. All I ask is show me the confirmed numbers against those who go to hospital. Professionals know we do not have all the answers but they do have the odds of recovery on their side...

[Gruffydd y Dryw]

Hi Pete ,

I certainly agree that the majority of faith healing is bogus. But I have seen faith healing work to benefit people more than standard medicine alone (but not instead of standard medicine) or in cases where standard medicine has exhausted its methods.  I am a Reiki master and some of what I saw may be along the same lines as energy healing of which I am a proponent. But I am willing to concede that in many cases of faith healing the truth may lie somewhere between placebo effect and strengthening someone's willpower to fight the illness. Of course hucksterism is also rampant as well

Edited March 18, 2016 by Gruffydd y Dryw

[Dan56]

18 hours ago, Pete said:

I have seen some who say they were healed of cancer by a church but their x rays sadly said different. I have seen people suffering from terrible mental illnesses who were taught that was caused by their sin. I remember one lady who was a devout baptist who had suffered terrible pain for years from cancer who eventually stopped eating and drinking and died. Her family then said she was going to hell for killing herself. I personally feel that church healing is no more than a placebo affect. I remember seeing a documentary with RIchard Dawkins in Lourds  where thousands would come to be healed each year but the actual people healed were so very few that it could not justify any healing process was taking place. Most can tell of an individual who became well but they do not look at the many who did not get well or compare that with those who do not go to church. People do get healed from chronic illnesses sometimes but I do not see an increase in those who attended a church and those who do not. I expect that if sufferers were to sue churches who declared them healed when they were not we would have even less claims of success. 

 

I agree with your experience and analysis,. I believe many Christians are falsely taught that their faith can heal them today, but I've never seen solid evidence of it, nor do I believe such miracles occurred after the first century. I also post on the "Christian Chat" message board, and you wouldn't believe all the smack I get when I suggest such a thing.. Them freakin Christians can be brutal  :

[Pete]

5 hours ago, Dan56 said:

I agree with your experience and analysis,. I believe many Christians are falsely taught that their faith can heal them today, but I've never seen solid evidence of it, nor do I believe such miracles occurred after the first century. I also post on the "Christian Chat" message board, and you wouldn't believe all the smack I get when I suggest such a thing.. Them freakin Christians can be brutal  :

I can imagine. Yet I have seen so many who insisted that they could heal me. Some prayed over me and other prayed over a tissue which I was supposed to put on my body to heal me. All it did was cause pain and frustration to a young child and a dashed hope to his parents. Many would get annoyed if you questioned them and make a sermon out of lack of faith. Nowadays I ask "show me the stats that say this works". and other than  than telling me of things they had read and unverifiable examples they cannot. Medicine has to do research on many cases and that research has to be available to prove something works.  I just think these faith healers need to do the same or have a case that stands up in court. 

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Gruffydd y Dryw said:

Hi Pete ,

I certainly agree that the majority of faith healing is bogus. But I have seen faith healing work to benefit people more than standard medicine alone (but not instead of standard medicine) or in cases where standard medicine has exhausted its methods.  I am a Reiki master and some of what I saw may be along the same lines as energy healing of which I am a proponent. But I am willing to concede that in many cases of faith healing the truth may lie somewhere between placebo effect and strengthening someone's willpower to fight the illness. Of course hucksterism is also rampant as well

I believe that positive beliefs help. I awake with arthritic pain everyday now. Belief that life is still worth getting up for is a must. If I lie there things do not get better but they do get worse. If something helps a person see a thing positively I am sure it helps. My father died a short while ago (2yrs ago). The last words I am told he said was to tell everyone he loved them. JWs put out a lot of propaganda that people do not need blood transfusions and so he went unconscious and bled to death.  I hope I am able to tell people I love them when I die. It is so positive. (imo).

Edited March 18, 2016 by Pete

[Pastor Dave]

8 hours ago, Dan56 said:

 I believe many Christians are falsely taught that their faith can heal them today, but I've never seen solid evidence of it, nor do I believe such miracles occurred after the first century

Are you saying the Bible is wrong Dan?

Exodus 23:25 And you shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless your bread, and your water; and I will take sickness away from the middle of you.

Psalms 103:3 Who forgives all your iniquities; who heals all your diseases;

Psalms 107:20 He sent his word, and healed them, and delivered them from their destructions.

Jeremiah 30:17 For I will restore health to you, and I will heal you of your wounds, said the LORD; because they called you an Outcast, saying, This is Zion, whom no man seeks after.

Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.

Matthew 10:8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely you have received, freely give.

Matthew 14:14 And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick.

James 5:14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

James 5:16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that you may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bore our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live to righteousness: by whose stripes you were healed.

[Pete]

Pastor Dave, Not that I believe the bible but the verses do not say when and nor does it say anything beyond the disciples. However, your most welcome to pray to heal my pain and put it to the test. I have been promised healing since I was a child and I am now 61 and things are getting worse and not better. 

It is easy to push forward a few verses but that does not supply any evidence does it. Show me the evidence in numbers. Research shows that there is no more success in healing in Christianity than any other religion or non religion.. . 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Pete

[Pastor Dave]

Hi Pete.

If you look at the verses I posted you'll see that the first four are well before the disciples. Also, nowhere does the New Testament say that the is a specific amount of time that miracles were going to be around or that they would stop. Even so I have heard many who, like Dan, believe that healing ended in the first century, yet the Bilbe clearly tells us that we believers  are disciples.

John 13:35

 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

During the late '60s and into the mid '70s i remember being in many services where instantaneous, miraculous healings occurred. I will admit that I haven't seen it recently, but I do hear of it happening still. There are other reasons besides a lack of faith that can delay or stop healing from coming. However without faith a miracle is not likely (IMO). Hebrews 11:6 tells us   And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. I had a cousin who was a "good Christian" who died of cancer even though she believed in the healing power of God. I cannot say with any certainty why some receive their healing while others do not. As for me I will continue to believe the Bible which tells me  in Exodus 15:25 " I am the Lord that healeth thee."

I saw an article the other day which showed prayer to be a factor in healing. I have lost the link but it said that in a clinical study in Russia (a decidedly atheistic country) people who prayed and were prayed over healed quicker than those who did not pray and were not prayed over.

Thank you for allowing me to pray for you. I have prayed for you. Remember Hebrews 11:6 .... believe that He exists.

[Dan56]

2 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

Are you saying the Bible is wrong Dan?

 

No, I'm just convinced that men are not endowed with the power today to heal miraculously, like they were in the time of Moses/Joshua, Elijah/Elisha & Jesus/Apostles. "And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people" Acts 5:12). Those miracles were for a sign to authenticate the message and the messenger, and this apostolic authority came directly from Christ. "Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (2 Corinthians 12:12). To me, its clear that the gift of healing was meant to establish the church; "And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following" (Mark 16:20)..I still believe God can and does still perform miracles today if He chooses, but He does not give people that ability any more, those gifts served their purpose and have ceased. The purpose; "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name" (John 20:30-31). The miracles weren't meant to be forever replicated.. jmo

https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/5-what-does-the-bible-say-about-miracles

[Pete]

2 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:

Hi Pete.

If you look at the verses I posted you'll see that the first four are well before the disciples. Also, nowhere does the New Testament say that the is a specific amount of time that miracles were going to be around or that they would stop. Even so I have heard many who, like Dan, believe that healing ended in the first century, yet the Bilbe clearly tells us that we believers  are disciples.

John 13:35

 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

During the late '60s and into the mid '70s i remember being in many services where instantaneous, miraculous healings occurred. I will admit that I haven't seen it recently, but I do hear of it happening still. There are other reasons besides a lack of faith that can delay or stop healing from coming. However without faith a miracle is not likely (IMO). Hebrews 11:6 tells us   And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him. I had a cousin who was a "good Christian" who died of cancer even though she believed in the healing power of God. I cannot say with any certainty why some receive their healing while others do not. As for me I will continue to believe the Bible which tells me  in Exodus 15:25 " I am the Lord that healeth thee."

I saw an article the other day which showed prayer to be a factor in healing. I have lost the link but it said that in a clinical study in Russia (a decidedly atheistic country) people who prayed and were prayed over healed quicker than those who did not pray and were not prayed over.

Thank you for allowing me to pray for you. I have prayed for you. Remember Hebrews 11:6 .... believe that He exists.

Most services I have been too have been very emotionally charged affairs. People claim all sorts but reality hits later. I am aware that there are many people of differing faiths that claim prayer works but credible non religious research has no evidence that suggest prayer heals anyone except it is maybe comforting for the sufferer to feel others are thinking of them and they are not alone.

You say about Russia being an atheist country but despite the old communists in power, religion continued. Russian Orthodoxy has flourished. There are many claims but few can be backed up with research conditions. 

Now I know you believe this but its up to you. I am not convinced. I am not insulted if someone prays for me. It is nice to be thought of kindly but the evidence of my life is that it does so very little in practice. There has never been a case where prayer helped an amputee grow another limb, 

Edited March 18, 2016 by Pete

[Child of God]

I am a Christian and I see this as an idiotic act.