Do You Consider Yourself To Be A Pacifist?

[Dan52]

I once commented that most members of ULC were pacifist. This was just my impression derived from most of the post I've read. My opinion was based on a general opposition to war or violence as a means of addressing problems that can't be arbitrarily resolved any other way. I also noticed that pacifism permeates into a persons religious persuasion, as most members are swayed into beliefs that reject the idea of punishment or hell.. While the idea of a nonviolent God may seem appealing, do you restrict your belief (if any) to a deity that does not resort to violence or punishment as a means of settling anything? Is God a pacifist? Is it possible for a pacifistic God to render righteous judgment?

[Crzyme]

I voted Pacifist because I live my life this way, believe it to be correct for me

I believe if any creator was involved at all in the formation of humans it was a builder and a pacifists in a natural way, not to kill or harm for sport but for food carnivores and omnivores are not restricted from killing as all meat eaters do kill (or sometimes harm with near misses).

I do totally reject the idea of a vengeful god/creator as something that just doesn't seem logical

[RevRainbow]

(Mod post) While it appears that this subject might belong in a different topic area, I think it better to remain here as it pertains not to religious beliefs (although religion may play a part in the determination of one's stance) in general, but the attitudes and personalities of ULC ministers of all faiths.

I will give my personal answer to the question a bit later.

[Jonathan H. B. Lobl]

I once commented that most members of ULC were pacifist. This was just my impression derived from most of the post I've read. My opinion was based on a general opposition to war or violence as a means of addressing problems that can't be arbitrarily resolved any other way. I also noticed that pacifism permeates into a persons religious persuasion, as most members are swayed into beliefs that reject the idea of punishment or hell.. While the idea of a nonviolent God may seem appealing, do you restrict your belief (if any) to a deity that does not resort to violence or punishment as a means of settling anything? Is God a pacifist? Is it possible for a pacifistic God to render righteous judgment?

The Unity behind existence does not "render righteous judgement." IMO

[Ex Nihilo]

I believe in nonagression, but I do not go so far as to say self defense and defense of others when life or liberty is at stake is wrong, even if violence is used. I once thought about joining the libertarian party but they make you affirm an oath that you would nor support violence in order to achieve any political end. I thought about that and realized that it would negate the American revolution and the declaration of independence. If that policy were followed, wed still be subjects of the crown. Defensive violence,when measured and for good cause, is ok imho.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Rev'd Rattlesnake

[Kingfisher]

I also noticed that pacifism permeates into a persons religious persuasion, as most members are swayed into beliefs that reject the idea of punishment or hell..

I believe in hell, I just believe it's a matter of karma rather than punishment.

While the idea of a nonviolent God may seem appealing, do you restrict your belief (if any) to a deity that does not resort to violence or punishment as a means of settling anything?

What I believe is just what I believe, but I try to allow my mind to be as unrestricted as possible. I think God can do anything, I just don't think God is as crude as we. Nobody wins at war until it's over. The whole point of it is to stop fighting, I just dismiss the extraneous battles and victory is achieved. My perspective is as Israel with the White Tārā. I'm not a pacifist because I think violence is inherently evil, I'm a pacifist because I have seen a God that transcends it all. I merely try to align myself with that universal harmony. I'm not always successful.

"Call it peace or call it treason, call it love or call it reason, but I ain't marching anymore!" ~ Phil Ochs

Is God a pacifist?

God is beyond definition.

Is it possible for a pacifistic God to render righteous judgment?

Sure. I think righteous judgment was laid down at the beginning of time. Measure twice, cut once. I don't see God sitting on a throne handing out decrees for our eternal fate, our rewards and punishments are just a reflection of our own free will. With great freedom comes great responsibility. It's not personal, it's just dharma. And we're all in it together. God doesn't punish us if we jump off a cliff or threaten us with suffering if we disobey, but in love teaches us that it will hurt if we fall. If I'm going to hell, it's through my fault, my fault, my most grievous fault...

Edited August 1, 2012 by Kingfisher

[Dan52]

Thanks Rev Rainbow, I wasn't sure how to categorize the question myself, I almost put it in the Philosophical Talk thread, but decided it was a direct question and not so much philosophical. Thanks to those who responded so far, my assumption that most of us are pacifist may have been wrong?

I should have mentioned that I am not a pacifist myself. I think that as long as evil exist, correction in one form or another must exist, and this applies to spiritual intervention as well. Pacifism endures evil, so in a sense, pacifism resist correction and is content to allow evil and injustice to thrive. If a person or God is unwilling to intercede where evil exist, its the same as accepting unrighteousness.

Pacifism may be mere cowardice.

Standing by and refusing to act while harm befalls a neighbor is not a virtue; it is a vice.

To love evil is itself evil and constitutes a passive form of complicity.

Edited August 1, 2012 by Dan52

[Cornelius]

I am not a pacifist. I try to live as peacefully as possible and for the most part I have been successful.

Imho I find the christian belief that a wicked person who has faith and asks for forgiveness will be saved and go to heaven and a righteous person who does not believe will go to hell to be a perversion of what is just. As ones actions do not matter but merely their theological tendencies in this sytem. I find a god who would set up such a system to be unjust and not worthy of worship..

Edited August 1, 2012 by Hrodebert

[Fawzo]

Pacifism may be mere cowardice.

So Jesus was a coward?!?!

Standing by and refusing to act while harm befalls a neighbor is not a virtue; it is a vice.

Yet isn't this exactly what the Biblical God does by allowing the Serpent to deceive Eve?

To love evil is itself evil and constitutes a passive form of complicity.

To allow evil to exist in the first place is even worse!!!

[Kingfisher]

Pacifism endures evil, so in a sense, pacifism resist correction and is content to allow evil and injustice to thrive.

I endure my enemies so that I may have the opportunity to correct them, rather than destroy them. I would wish no less mercy for myself. I am not content to let wars thrive, but I cannot defeat evil by becoming the devil. It's easy to kill. It takes a lot more courage to love.

[Dan52]

Pacifism may be mere cowardice.

So Jesus was a coward?!?!

Standing by and refusing to act while harm befalls a neighbor is not a virtue; it is a vice.

Yet isn't this exactly what the Biblical God does by allowing the Serpent to deceive Eve?

To love evil is itself evil and constitutes a passive form of complicity.

To allow evil to exist in the first place is even worse!!

Jesus was not a pacifist, he said; " The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matthew 13:41-42).

Eve willingly listened to the serpent, despite God's warning.. And God did act.

Where there is free will, evil will exist. God is not complicit, but persistent in overcoming evil with good.

I endure my enemies so that I may have the opportunity to correct them, rather than destroy them. I would wish no less mercy for myself. I am not content to let wars thrive, but I cannot defeat evil by becoming the devil. It's easy to kill. It takes a lot more courage to love.

Does this mean that you would prefer to endure Osama bin Laden because you would prefer to talk to him with the hope of correcting his attitude? Is defeating evil with violence good or bad?

I am not a pacifist. I try to live as peacefully as possible and for the most part I have been successful.

Imho I find the christian belief that a wicked person who has faith and asks for forgiveness will be saved and go to heaven and a righteous person who does not believe will go to hell to be a perversion of what is just. As ones actions do not matter but merely their theological tendencies in this sytem. I find a god who would set up such a system to be unjust and not worthy of worship..

From a biblical prospective, there aren't any righteous people, we all fall short of the glory of God because we are all sinners. We are justified and redeemed by Christ, its the unbelievers hate and rejection of Christ/God that sends them to hell.

[RevRainbow]

I would like to see this topic stay on course in regards to pacifism.

God's ways are not our ways, so God, IMO, is not a pacifist. He doesnt seek peace, He brings it.

I am not a pacifist. I do try to be a peacemaker.

I believe in defense against aggression when peaceful means to avoid it have failed.

[Ex Nihilo]

The bible says vengeance is the Lord's, he will repay. I just want to get out of his way. Jesus taught to not resist evil and to repay evil with good. When an apostle tried to defend jesus in the garden on the night of his betrayal by drawing a sword and chopping off the ear of a temple guard, he told him to put it away. In Isaiah, one of the most beautiful prophesies he gives is the vision of future generations beating swords into plowshares where no one will learn war anymore. Jesus in called the prince of peace, I don't think its just a pretty name. My point is that while god may not be a pacifist, he wants those called in his name to be nonviolent. "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live at peace with all men." Like Rev. Rainbow, I, for my part want to be a peacemaker.

[Cornelius]

From a biblical prospective, there aren't any righteous people, we all fall short of the glory of God because we are all sinners. We are justified and redeemed by Christ, its the unbelievers hate and rejection of Christ/God that sends them to hell.

I think we are using different definitions for the term righteous.In terms of the bible.

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my justice was as a robe and a diadem.

Ezekiel 14:14 though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

There are three righteous people right there. I'm sure if I took some time I could find more the bible names as righteous.

Why do you say unbelievers hate Christ? I like Christ I think he was a decent person ifhe existed. His propensity for socialism was very kindand loving. He ate with the sinners and walked among lepers. Now what his followers have done and what has been done in his name is another story.

If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by.

That speaks volumes to me.

Good people roasting in gehenna while murderers, rapists, pedophiles, people that have done little to no good and incredible evil etc. are in heaven is an abomination. Just because they didn't believe the "right" myth. This is unjust and I fail to see how a god that behaves in such a way is just. I can't accept such a world rejecting philosophy that makes our actions while we are here meaningless and everything focusing and relying on an afterlife reward that may not even exist.

[Cornelius]

The bible says vengeance is the Lord's, he will repay. I just want to get out of his way. Jesus taught to not resist evil and to repay evil with good. When an apostle tried to defend jesus in the garden on the night of his betrayal by drawing a sword and chopping off the ear of a temple guard, he told him to put it away. In Isaiah, one of the most beautiful prophesies he gives is the vision of future generations beating swords into plowshares where no one will learn war anymore. Jesus in called the prince of peace, I don't think its just a pretty name. My point is that while god may not be a pacifist, he wants those called in his name to be nonviolent. "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live at peace with all men." Like Rev. Rainbow, I, for my part want to be a peacemaker.

Matthew 10:34-40

34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace on earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; 36 and a man's foes will be those of his own household. 37 He who loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he who loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38 and he who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake will find it.

[Kingfisher]

Does this mean that you would prefer to endure Osama bin Laden because you would prefer to talk to him with the hope of correcting his attitude? Is defeating evil with violence good or bad?

I would rather we had all found something better to do, yes. What difference is this foolish and tragic waste of life if the dead are in New York or Abottabad? The conflict didn't end the violence or defeat evil, it only created more. Hundreds of thousands of people have suffered and died in name of another "righteous" war. Countless millions throughout history. Many more are dying even now. It's not God's will, it's insanity. It's nothing more than unrestrained barbarism. I have seen enough killing. I choose to be more than just another stupid murderous ape. Life has so many greater things to offer. You ask me only if I would prefer to kill or fear being killed. I prefer to fly beyond the grasp of the savage jungle.

"A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism and recognizes that an organism at war with itself is doomed. We are one planet. One of the great revelations of the age of space exploration is the image of the Earth, finite and lonely, somehow vulnerable, bearing the entire human species through the oceans of space and time. But this is an ancient perception... history is full of people who, out of fear or ignorance or the lust for power, have destroyed treasures of immeasurable value which truly belong to all of us. We must not let it happen again." ~ Carl Sagan

[Qryos]

~ I voted 'pacifist' because I don't think violence solves much besides the instant gratification of unleashing wrath.

Pacifism endures evil, so in a sense, pacifism resist correction and is content to allow evil and injustice to thrive.

As a pacifist I don't believe in 'enduring' evil Dan. Neither am I 'content' to allow evil and injustice thrive.

I do believe that there are personal paths each chooses to take and that I prefer a path that does not involve violence in thought or deed.

{ Not always successful, but as you said, we're all sinners. }

[Dan52]

The bible says vengeance is the Lord's, he will repay. I just want to get out of his way. Jesus taught to not resist evil and to repay evil with good. When an apostle tried to defend jesus in the garden on the night of his betrayal by drawing a sword and chopping off the ear of a temple guard, he told him to put it away. In Isaiah, one of the most beautiful prophesies he gives is the vision of future generations beating swords into plowshares where no one will learn war anymore. Jesus in called the prince of peace, I don't think its just a pretty name. My point is that while god may not be a pacifist, he wants those called in his name to be nonviolent. "If it be possible, as much as lieth in you, live at peace with all men." Like Rev. Rainbow, I, for my part want to be a peacemaker.

Vengeance is the Lord's, which is why I also don't think He's a pacifist. Christ did teach us not to seek revenge, but I doubt he intended us to allow a murder or rape if it was in our power to stop it. Jesus came as a sacrificial lamb, which is why he stopped Peter from defending him with a sword. Jesus later said that if his kingdom were of this world, that his servants would fight (John 18:36), which implies that it is right for kingdoms of this world to fight when the cause is just and circumstances require it. Those verses in Isaiah are describing the millennium (Isaiah 2:2-4). Your right, Paul did say; "If it be possible, live at peace with everyone" (Romans 12:18), but I don't think its always possible. Thanks for your opinion, and I agree, its always preferable to be a peacemaker when possible.

Good people roasting in gehenna while murderers, rapists, pedophiles, people that have done little to no good and incredible evil etc. are in heaven is an abomination. Just because they didn't believe the "right" myth. This is unjust and I fail to see how a god that behaves in such a way is just. I can't accept such a world rejecting philosophy that makes our actions while we are here meaningless and everything focusing and relying on an afterlife reward that may not even exist.

I understand your dilemma, but I highly doubt that murderers, rapists, and pedophiles will be basking in heavenly glory while righteous people roast in hell. While there is mercy for the truly repentant, its important to remember that Jesus also said that those who loved him would also keep his commandments. So our good deeds and actions aren't meaningless, but a demonstration of our faith. I think God will rightly judge the hypocrites who profess Christ with their lips, but who's hearts are far from him.

I would rather we had all found something better to do, yes. What difference is this foolish and tragic waste of life if the dead are in New York or Abottabad? The conflict didn't end the violence or defeat evil, it only created more. Hundreds of thousands of people have suffered and died in name of another "righteous" war. Countless millions throughout history. Many more are dying even now. It's not God's will, it's insanity. It's nothing more than unrestrained barbarism. I have seen enough killing. I choose to be more than just another stupid murderous ape. Life has so many greater things to offer. You ask me only if I would prefer to kill or fear being killed. I prefer to fly beyond the grasp of the savage jungle.

"All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing". When a murderer is eradicated, he doesn't murder anymore. Self-defense does not make you another murderous ape, it protects the innocent. You can pursue greater things and fly beyond the savage jungle, thanks to those who've fought to preserve the peace. JMO

"For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; for it is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil." (Romans 13:3-4)

Edited August 2, 2012 by Dan52

[Dan52]

As a pacifist I don't believe in 'enduring' evil Dan. Neither am I 'content' to allow evil and injustice thrive.

Thanks for participating... Just curious, if you don't believe in enduring evil and aren't happy letting evil thrive, then why do you define yourself as a pacifist? It seems like you care and are bothered by injustice, and I doubt that a true pacifist would care. I think if you saw a rape in progress that you would at least call 911, while a pacifist would walk on by and not get involved.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Dan52

[RevRainbow]

I think, Dan, you need to define your concept of pacifism. To me, it means non-participation in war or conflict but not non-involvement. A person who refuses to bear arms in war can/will serve by being a medic, truck driver or supply person. Being a pacifist, to me, does not mean you dont care, it is more that you prefer peaceful means above violence and, I am sure, there are active as well as passive pacifists. A person who uses violence or supports war as a means to an end is the more uncaring, for they have little regard for human life, IMO.