Turnig Witches To Christ

[Pete]

How exactly does foreknowledge of an action preclude free will? God does not need to be in the dark in order for us to exercise free-will. God knowing the future of what someone will do, does not mean God set the future of what that person will do? There is no causal relationship between foreknowledge and events which are foreknown. Because God knows our decisions before we make them, does not mean that our decisions were made by God. Without free will there can be no judgment. Whether or not God has foreknowledge of our actions is irrelevant.

Its my opinion that we freely choose evil (sin). Freewill has everything to do with evil, evil could not exist without free-will. I agree that God sets the parameters, he allows what he allows and is in complete control.

If I create something that I know will fail then I created it to fail. I cannot complain then that it failed or say it has freewill because I know in advance that I created a thing to fail. God must have created failure.

[Dan56]

Now you're starting to see glimpses of why evil is an integral part of God's plan and has always been.

Good and evil are necessary to test souls, but evil is temporary and will soon cease to exist.

If I create something that I know will fail then I created it to fail. I cannot complain then that it failed or say it has freewill because I know in advance that I created a thing to fail. God must have created failure.

Your correct in the sense that God being omniscient, had to have foreknown that we would all fail. But everything God created was good, he did not create us to fail. In giving human beings a choice, God gave us the option to sin, and we all took it. So the responsibility is ours, because we each freely chose to sin. Did God know everyone would fail the test, be disobedient, and come up short? Yes. Does God's foreknowledge of our actions make creating us pointless? No, because before the beginning, God planned to defeat sin himself. So because we have victory over sin through Christ, God did not create failures.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Romans 3:23-25)

[Fawzo]

Good and evil are necessary to test souls, but evil is temporary and will soon cease to exist.

Then your free will by correlation would only be temporary and cease to exist as well.

Why do souls need to be tested by an Omniscient Deity. He knows, hes not running around with evil as some type of battery tester going.... good one.....bad one .... good one .... bad one .... Dan not sure yet lol

[Pete]

Good and evil are necessary to test souls, but evil is temporary and will soon cease to exist.

Your correct in the sense that God being omniscient, had to have foreknown that we would all fail. But everything God created was good, he did not create us to fail. In giving human beings a choice, God gave us the option to sin, and we all took it. So the responsibility is ours, because we each freely chose to sin. Did God know everyone would fail the test, be disobedient, and come up short? Yes. Does God's foreknowledge of our actions make creating us pointless? No, because before the beginning, God planned to defeat sin himself. So because we have victory over sin through Christ, God did not create failures.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God." (Romans 3:23-25)

I do not remember that coming up short was a choice. It has always been with me. I also do not remember every being asked if I wanted to rebel or not, it has always been that the road is never clear and in my experience (maybe not yours) the bible and church is far from a help.

[RevTom]

Please pray for me in my struggle. i am attempting to get two wiccans(witches)to turn to God. it has been a long battle but i am slowly beating the powers of satan.! i am winning with Gods help. however i need all the prayers i can get

Neither you nor the Wiccans are winning nor staying true to your souls: the Wiccans either ar not true to their pagan beliefs, or are rootless, and you are meddling in people's spirituality in ways you know nothing about-it is the arrogance of most Christians that they must "convert people" from that which resonates with them. Wicca-and other pagans well as mainstream religions outside Christianty are not inferior shells, as the soulless Christians would believe. To not know this is to not know Christ's true life's work and message. Speaking of

God "...for I am known by many names..." did you think the names were all little handy labels for you creature comfort? I am Wiccan, will not "convert to Chritsitanity"-been there done that" -and will continue to stay true to my spirit, helping others when I can, not proselytizing which the Christians feel necessary to do...

[RevTom]

I'm amused at how far this topic has gone. A person wants to "convert" people from Wicca, and we turn it into a 9 page topic.

That is all. Carry on.

It touches the soul...the arrogance of Christians-the indignity of pagans (Wiccans like myself included), and also of the non Christian mainstream religions (Buddhism, etc.) Only Christianity-Islam proselytises, believing one is condemned if one does not adhere to THEIR religion-lord, get me a beer!...Christianity as practiced today is only a 1st step in learning one's spirituality-if one progresses, he/she goes beyond the pablum of Sunday Church service and learns how to open his/her soul to the bigger picture and spiritual journey and knowledge...as for Christianity, been there/done that-now I know better and have traveled beyond...

[Pete]

It touches the soul...the arrogance of Christians-the indignity of pagans (Wiccans like myself included), and also of the non Christian mainstream religions (Buddhism, etc.) Only Christianity-Islam proselytises, believing one is condemned if one does not adhere to THEIR religion-lord, get me a beer!...

If you have read the posts you will find that some Christians have made it clear that they did not agree with the original poster. Not all Christians believe that everyone is damned just because they do not see things the same way as they do. If there is a universal between what most feel is essential in each faith and non-faith then it is the need for love of another. I am a liberal Christian and I believe that most Wiccans share that belief in love. Why should I ever want them to change that. If I had to put my faith in a nutshell then it is a belief in the power of love and in that I believe many faiths and non faiths share the same faith.

Christianity as practiced today is only a 1st step in learning one's spirituality-if one progresses, he/she goes beyond the pablum of Sunday Church service and learns how to open his/her soul to the bigger picture and spiritual journey and knowledge...as for Christianity, been there/done that-now I know better and have traveled beyond...

I agree with you but I find Liberal Christianity gives me the flexibility to embrace others without prejudice, but I am not say that you must be a Christian. If you find the Wicca serves you in your spiritual journey then I am all for it. All I am saying is that not all who use the name Christian believes it is all about everyone believing the same thing.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Pete

[RevRainbow]

Sounds logical... Without evil, there is only good, and with only good, there is no choice.

There was always choice, and still is, without the appearance of Evil. Adam and Eve had choices and all (except one) were good (even if they were, at a later date, sinful), but remember the knowledge of Good and Evil was not there so, as God said, ALL things (He created), to Him. were good. To Adam and Eve, these things just existed.

An easy explanation would be your choice between chocolate, strawberry and vanilla ice cream. You may choose any flavor and all are good. Now, if I tell you you can eat any flavor BUT chocolate, for in that day that you eat chocolate you shall die, then, if you eat it you have chosen to disobey, and, in doing so, REALIZE the difference between good and evil. I dont have to tell you why I created chocolate (it is good, but not for you) because you would not understand. I foreknew that you were allergic to chocolate, you chose it, against my warning, and had an allergic reaction and died. I am explaining this in a physical way in order to understand the spiritual nature of what happened. Basically, we are allergic to Evil.

Nothing exist unless God allows it. I don't think God created evil, but that he allows it. If God had not allowed evil, we would be worshiping him out of obligation, not by a choice of our own will.

Many still worship out of obligation which, IMO, still is a choice. We must be able to understand the spiritual rather than the carnal explanations. Layer upon layer of myth, superstition, ignorant descriptions, fable and deceptions over the centuries have polluted religion. If God created all things, then God created Evil. If God created Evil, is it then not good? How can that be? Because Evil was not intended for us but, thanks to Adam and Eve, we now have a knowledge of Good and Evil and thus, can choose between the two in all things. And what is the choice we make? It all boils down to personal Pride. We choose Self over God, the created over the Creator, the carnal over the spiritual. Prior to the personal choice of Adam (not Eve), we had a close, personal relationship with God. Christ has shown us that that relationship has been re-established if we will choose God over Self.

If we could not freely choose, our behavior would be designed and programmed, making us robots of instinctual behaviour. For God to create human beings that are capable of sustaining a personal relationship with him, they must be beings that are capable of freely loving him and following his will without coercion.

Do not some people still worship their god out of fear of punishment and retribution, while others, realizing the Grace and mercy of the Creator, out of love? To answer another beloved poster in our group, God HAD to kill Himself, IMO, in order that we could see that we had, through our spiritual ignorance, and with the now sinful nature we inherited through Pride (Satan), created a false concept of God because we were now separated from Him. God (in the flesh) was resurrected, defeating Satan and thus, making us a new creation, in Christ, as we were meant to be. Why do you think it is said that sin no longer has dominion over us? Why do you think it says that all things are now lawful? Do we understand when Paul says there is now no longer male and female? We very much need that third eye to see clearly.

[RevTom]

ok-but I would find the title "turning witches to Christ" and the premise very offensive if what Christians thought (fundamental, Bible thumping Christians) made any difference to me. As regards to savedintheson and his ilk, the whole litany stands: As regards to your post and other enlightened Christians, ok-I will concede that Christianity can be a path toward spiritual growth and knowledge. The main object is to remain true to our own path and follow its wisdom in learning about our journey here, and the greater journey of our souls. Actually, I resonate with many paths-Buddhism, Christianity (to some degree), Lao Tse, Hindi to name a few, but Celtic Wicca reaches my soul as no other path-perhaps because I identify with my Celtic/Scottish Highlander origins: Would be Druid, but so much of the traditions have been lost, and although the same holds true with Celtic traditions, I was introduced to them (Celtic) 1st, and found it talks to my soul.

[Vortex]

I find it interesting that "savedinchrist" has everyone here responding to each other.

But where has the originator of the thread been since?

[Tsukino_Rei]

I find it interesting that "savedinchrist" has everyone here responding to each other.

But where has the originator of the thread been since?

He most likely found a forum that was more like the one he was intending to find.

[Dan56]

Then your free will by correlation would only be temporary and cease to exist as well.

The choice of evil will be eliminated because evil will be destroyed. As R.R.'s ice cream analogy points out, there's always choice.

Why do souls need to be tested by an Omniscient Deity. He knows, hes not running around with evil as some type of battery tester going.... good one.....bad one .... good one .... bad one .... Dan not sure yet lol

I believe souls need to be tested because of judgment. A person can't be condemned or rewarded based on what we would have done. The test are for our sakes, we can't reap what we sow if we have no works. It was foreknown by God that Jesus would not fail, but Christ still experienced the flesh in order for all to witness that God's Will was done and his work finished.

I do not remember that coming up short was a choice. It has always been with me. I also do not remember every being asked if I wanted to rebel or not, it has always been that the road is never clear and in my experience (maybe not yours) the bible and church is far from a help.

The bible is no help when its not believed. Everyone comes up short and falls to sin, its innate in all of us, but I wouldn't define a Christian as being rebellious just because everything is not clear to them or they have difficulty understanding. For me, rebelling is when you do understand and believe the bible but still refuse to accept it. I've always tried to accept what make sense and work on understanding what doesn't.

[Fawzo]

The choice of evil will be eliminated because evil will be destroyed. As R.R.'s ice cream analogy points out, there's always choice.

Then you have seen the error in your earlier statement that evil needed to exist for there to be free will?

I believe souls need to be tested because of judgment. A person can't be condemned or rewarded based on what we would have done. The test are for our sakes, we can't reap what we sow if we have no works. It was foreknown by God that Jesus would not fail, but Christ still experienced the flesh in order for all to witness that God's Will was done and his work finished.

Yes for the sake of those going to hell sounds rather ridiculous to me.

The human body seeks out and destroys bad blood cells beofre they are allowed to effect the body. Are you telling me God couldn't do the same with souls before they are allowed to infect our whole system.

Of course a person can be codemned and rewarded for what they would have done if the Judge has omniscience.

Do you think Omniscience is flawed in some way? I don't think you fully comprehend the full totality of Omniscience if you can make that statement.

Everyone comes up short and falls to sin, its innate in all of us,

Because as all your previous statements add up to "IT IS GOD'S OMNIPOTENT WILL" He wouldn't have it any other way, because if he would have it any other way guess which way it would be.

He is the Master Programmer and any viruses or worms that exist within his programs are there because he programmed them in. Unless you believe in another Super Master Programmer who can infect your Master Programmers system without his knowledge which would mean your Master Programmer is not all that Omniscient in the first place.

Next time you read Isaiah 45:5-7 keep these thoughts in mind and drop the whole calamity apologetic. It doesn't work.

[BrDevon]

I find it interesting that "savedinchrist" has everyone here responding to each other.

But where has the originator of the thread been since?

Out buying some stain to preserve that beam in his eye. (as referenced in Matthew 7:5)

[Pete]

ok-but I would find the title "turning witches to Christ" and the premise very offensive if what Christians thought (fundamental, Bible thumping Christians) made any difference to me. As regards to savedintheson and his ilk, the whole litany stands: As regards to your post and other enlightened Christians, ok-I will concede that Christianity can be a path toward spiritual growth and knowledge. The main object is to remain true to our own path and follow its wisdom in learning about our journey here, and the greater journey of our souls. Actually, I resonate with many paths-Buddhism, Christianity (to some degree), Lao Tse, Hindi to name a few, but Celtic Wicca reaches my soul as no other path-perhaps because I identify with my Celtic/Scottish Highlander origins: Would be Druid, but so much of the traditions have been lost, and although the same holds true with Celtic traditions, I was introduced to them (Celtic) 1st, and found it talks to my soul.

I also find a lot in other faiths too. Like you I have enjoyed Buddhist teaching and also Hindu. As for religions based in nature, I would be surprised if we are not all touched by that at times. Many do not even realize where some of their teachings come from and do not realize how eclectic their teaching are (IMO). The Bible talks about loving ones neighbor as oneself but I do not believe for one minute that this notion was never used before Jesus was supposed to have said it or that it originates in only one faith.

The bible is no help when its not believed.

One must believe the unbelievable in order to believe. ?????

It reminds me of the old story that if you do not believe in Santa Claus then he will not visit you.

[RabbiO]

I find it interesting that "savedinchrist" has everyone here responding to each other.

But where has the originator of the thread been since?

He said he was leaving. I presume he did and is now long gone.

[RabbiO]

The Bible talks about loving ones neighbor as oneself but I do not believe for one minute that this notion was never used before Jesus was supposed to have said it or that it originates in only one faith.

Pete,

You are correct that within the great religions of the world there are many shared values and sometimes the way they are worded in the sacred scriptures of the varied traditions are pretty darn close to one another.

My one quibble with the above small part of your post is that of course the notion was addressed before Jesus said it. He as quoting the Torah.

[Pete]

Pete,

You are correct that within the great religions of the world there are many shared values and sometimes the way they are worded in the sacred scriptures of the varied traditions are pretty darn close to one another.

My one quibble with the above small part of your post is that of course the notion was addressed before Jesus said it. He as quoting the Torah.

No quibble necessary. I agree he was quoting the torah. However, I am led to understand that the wording in the Torah does not mean "neighbor" but refers to ones "fellow Jew". See:- http://www.inner.org/responsa/leter1/resp22.htm

However, I realize that what ever it may of originally meant it has grown since then both in the Judaism and other faiths too. It is also a very good quote (IMO) that is important to many.

[Brother Michael Sky]

I find it interesting that "savedinchrist" has everyone here responding to each other.

But where has the originator of the thread been since?

apparently they've been out Turnig Witches To Christ..... must be a tiresome, thankless job....

[Dan56]

Then you have seen the error in your earlier statement that evil needed to exist for there to be free will?

Evil is allowed so that we have a choice, the test is between good and evil. But even where only good exist, I suppose there are still choices, so in that sense, free will continues. For the here & now though, evil is a necessary component.

The human body seeks out and destroys bad blood cells before they are allowed to effect the body. Are you telling me God couldn't do the same with souls before they are allowed to infect our whole system.

Sure, God could destroy the bad, but since we've all been infected with sin, what would be left? I believe God wants to purify the bad blood, not destroy it.

Of course a person can be condemned and rewarded for what they would have done if the Judge has omniscience.

Technically yes, but my point was that this is not the way God operates. I guess its important for a person to know why they're being condemned or rewarded, otherwise it would be like correcting or rewarding a kid for something they haven't done. What kind of judge does that?

Because as all your previous statements add up to "IT IS GOD'S OMNIPOTENT WILL" He wouldn't have it any other way, because if he would have it any other way guess which way it would be.

Once again, you have brilliantly crystallized my thoughts.

He is the Master Programmer and any viruses or worms that exist within his programs are there because he programmed them in. Unless you believe in another Super Master Programmer who can infect your Master Programmers system without his knowledge which would mean your Master Programmer is not all that Omniscient in the first place.

I basically agree, God allowed into the program what is allowed in, but the worms (sins) are activated by our own desire, not Gods. If sin was forced into the program, why wasn't Jesus infected?

Next time you read Isaiah 45:5-7 keep these thoughts in mind and drop the whole calamity apologetic. It doesn't work.

Well, it works for me... The Hebrew word for evil, "rah," is used in many different ways in the bible. I generally prefer the KJV translation, but in this particular verse, the translation to English is more accurately relayed in other versions. It is translated as "calamity" by the NASB and NKJV, and translated as "disaster" in the NIV.

The Bible talks about loving ones neighbor as oneself but I do not believe for one minute that this notion was never used before Jesus was supposed to have said it or that it originates in only one faith.

Jesus reiterated what was written in Leviticus 19:18, but he expounded upon the law in Matthew 5:44 by adding "Love your enemies". I don't believe too many religions follow that notion?

One must believe the unbelievable in order to believe?????

I'm convinced that belief comes from understanding the word and by inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Its hard to believe what we don't understand and even more difficult to accept what we aren't convinced is right. If Jesus was unbelievable, we wouldn't be expected to believe him.