Liberal Christianity 2

[Coolhand]

The only way for what Pete just described not to be the case is if that ONE SOURCE was NOT OMNISCIENT or if there were a way for him to switch omiscience on and off in the same manner that some believe we choose to forget our Divinity so that we can come and experience the physicality of the natural world and duality.

In the latter case the ONE SOURCE is still culpable however.

That is the only way? No other way could possiblly exist according to you, is that what you are saying? One way and one way only, right?

[Dan56]

Satan is one of the fruits of the tree!

Didn't Satan have free will to choose? Choose from what though? You stated that evil had to exist for free will to exist., if that is the case then once again evil had to exist for Satan to have free will to choose.

There had to be some type of database of information for what evil is, before there could be a tree of such knowledge? Where did that collection of evil data originate. All branches of the tree lead back to ONE SOURCE and it isn't Satan.

Evil is not a creation, it's a behavior of disobedience and rebellion against the laws of God. Evil is actually the absence of doing good as darkness is the absence of light. Darkness is not a creation, it is merely the absence of light, likewise the absence of good is evil. (James 1:13-17, Job 34:10, Psalm 5:4, James 3:14-17)

The Tree of Knowledge metaphorically represented Satan, he is the originator of sin and evil. What is evil/sin? It is everything outside of the righteousness of God. What evil existed prior to Satan? He was the first to turn away from God, so the source originated with Satan . Evil has malice and forethought, sin comes from inside us. God hates sin, he allows it, but did not create it imo (James 1:13-17, Job 34:10, Psalm 5:4, James 3:14-17).

Yet, even then that will not make one fly, as one has to have the desire to fly.

This makes sense to me. Evil is not a thing God created, but an action that we decide to take.

[Fawzo]

That is the only way? No other way could possiblly exist according to you, is that what you are saying? One way and one way only, right?

I listed two possibilities that seem plausible.

Do you have any situations in mind that seem plausible to you, where an Omniscient God allows evil and is not culpable?

[RevRainbow]

Dan, here are many verses which can be used to refute/contradict a position. For example, Psalm 54:5, Jer 6:19, Exodus 32:14 and Micah 1:12, as pertaining to evil. How many times did God "repent of the evil...?" I do not think that any of us fully understand this anomaly or we would not be questioning it so deeply.

While I will not argue whether or not God created evil (I think He said He did), methinks evil is like good in the sense that it is existing but does not become operative until acted upon. When God created stuff, He saw that it was "good." How could it be good unless there were an alternative: bad (evil)? Satan is evil because he acts on that condition, becoming the accuser and adversary of those who love God.

So, for some reason unbeknownst to me, evil and good existed from the very beginning (IMO). Satan was the first to act on the evil long before Adam and Eve showed up, by rebelling against God. What was his sin? Pride. The early meaning of evil is vanity (besides bad). It also can mean worthlessness or chaos in some cases. Eve was tempted and beguiled but Adam ate out of pride and therein lies the sin. Evil existed but it did not affect mankind until Adam acted on it.

Now, the scripture states "where there is no law, there is no (knowledge) of sin." The only law that Adam had was not to eat of the tree and when he did, he broke the law and thus came the knowledge of good and evil (bad). If you notice, the bible, as we have it, is a progressive knowledge of the Nature of God and the exposing of evil. As the scripture grows, so do the laws and ordinances, but at the same time, we are exposed to additional Names of God and His works.

I believe the bible to be inspired of God because of the intricacy of the writings and how they relate and are cumulative (not to mention all the spiritual benefits I have experienced) over centuries.

But I see a danger in not discerning the relationship that seemingly contradictory verses compliment each other, or by ignoring or rejecting verses that do not fit our positions. We must not fear what we don't understand. And if we don't understand where, when or why evil came into existence (and I dont think we do), we must trust in God, regardless. It is no sin to say "I don't know."

Sometimes, God wants us to say that, lest we give way to pride and sin. Both good and evil exist but have no impact unless acted upon. We can embrace or resist either one.

Edited June 24, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Coolhand]

I listed two possibilities that seem plausible.

Do you have any situations in mind that seem plausible to you, where an Omniscient God allows evil and is not culpable?

Actually, you are the one speaking as if you are an authority on omniscience, what the possibilities are. I'm just asking you how how confident you are in your seemingly absolute assertion of what is.

It would be difficult for me to love a God that I thought was repsonsible for all the evil that has happened to me however.

God loves us so He sends evil our way? Is that it?

[RevRainbow]

First, a correction, the first sentence in my post should have read "there" instead of "here." Sorry.

Second, remember that it was not evil that entered the world, but sin. The sin -Adam knowingly choosing to disobey, produced the knowledge of (between) good and evil.

Note to Cool: In a way, if we use OT wording, God can send evil our way (We would not say it like that today!). 1 Peter 4:12 16 "....think it not strange the fiery trial which is to test you...if any man suffer as a Christian...." Is God evil because He allows us, and not just Christians, to suffer, have fiery trials, etc.? Does it not also say that "whom the Lord loves, He chastens?" -Heb 12:16

When bad (evil) things happen to "good" people, we say God "allows" it only because we don't completely understand why these things are so. But when they do happen, we must have faith and trust in God who does know why these things are so.

Edited June 24, 2010 by RevRainbow

[Fawzo]

Actually, you are the one speaking as if you are an authority on omniscience, what the possibilities are. I'm just asking you how how confident you are in your seemingly absolute assertion of what is.

There is also the possibilty that evil is merely an illusion and doesn't exist at all as is taught by A Course in Miracles. Brother I'm not certain about much of anything. I question my beliefs quite often to see if they can withstand close scrutiny.

One reason I love coming here is to bounce my beliefs off the myriad members and see what comes back my way. When speaking about the Divine from our limited human minds it is all conjecture anyway.

It would be difficult for me to love a God that I thought was repsonsible for all the evil that has happened to me however.

God loves us so He sends evil our way? Is that it?

God loves you but he allows it to come our way doesn't he? If God is Omniscient couldn't he have stopped the existence of evil even before it came into being.

You might also like to ask Jesus or Job about what can come one's way when God loves you!!!

From our earthly physical perspective evil is a pretty nasty Mofo. If one seriously has faith though that they are an eternal spirit who can never die, evil loses it sting and simply becomes an experience doesn't it.

Edited June 24, 2010 by Fawzo

[Pete]

Actually, you are the one speaking as if you are an authority on omniscience, what the possibilities are. I'm just asking you how how confident you are in your seemingly absolute assertion of what is.

It would be difficult for me to love a God that I thought was repsonsible for all the evil that has happened to me however.

God loves us so He sends evil our way? Is that it?

Cool believe what you will. We only proposed a question based on the logic that was presented. If you have differing conclusion then please express your reasoning.

The reasoning we are concerned with is based on

1/ God knows what will happen. (Isa 46:10) (Acts 2:23) (1 Pet 1:2) (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)

2/ God created all and knew us before creating. (psalm 139:13) (Jer 1:5)

3/ God could of created us many ways but it seems God created us knowing we would fail him. The question then has to be asked is - if God chooses to create that which he knew in advance would fail him then God created a failure and is therefore ultimately responsible for that act.

If I made a table with two legs then I have to take the blame when the table falls over. I cannot thus put all the blame on the table as I knew what it would do before I made it.

[RabbiO]

Cool believe what you will. We only proposed a question based on the logic that was presented. If you have differing conclusion then please express your reasoning.

The reasoning we are concerned with is based on

1/ God knows what will happen. (Isa 46:10) (Acts 2:23) (1 Pet 1:2) (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)

2/ God created all and knew us before creating. (psalm 139:13) (Jer 1:5)

3/ God could of created us many ways but it seems God created us knowing we would fail him. The question then has to be asked is - if God chooses to create that which he knew in advance would fail him then God created a failure and is therefore ultimately responsible for that act.

If I made a table with two legs then I have to take the blame when the table falls over. I cannot thus put all the blame on the table as I knew what it would do before I made it.

Pete,

I did not check the cites from Christian scripture. I do know the cites to Hebrew scripture do not necessarily stand for the proposition of omniscience as you mean the term.

Edited June 25, 2010 by RabbiO

[Coolhand]

Cool believe what you will. We only proposed a question based on the logic that was presented. If you have differing conclusion then please express your reasoning.

The reasoning we are concerned with is based on

1/ God knows what will happen. (Isa 46:10) (Acts 2:23) (1 Pet 1:2) (Rev 1:8, 21:6, 22:13)

2/ God created all and knew us before creating. (psalm 139:13) (Jer 1:5)

3/ God could of created us many ways but it seems God created us knowing we would fail him. The question then has to be asked is - if God chooses to create that which he knew in advance would fail him then God created a failure and is therefore ultimately responsible for that act.

If I made a table with two legs then I have to take the blame when the table falls over. I cannot thus put all the blame on the table as I knew what it would do before I made it.

I would not call it "logic" to be devoted to an impotent God that does not help you, or a sick God causes evil to befall those who He allegedly loves. You call it "logic" to say the God of the Bible is defective, and you call it "logic" to say the the Bible is defective. What makes you think that your "logic" is not the defective piece here.

Differing conclusion; ok: your logic is flawed.

[Coolhand]

God loves you but he allows it to come our way doesn't he? If God is Omniscient couldn't he have stopped the existence of evil even before it came into being.

Right......so He sends evil our way but tells us to over come evil, and says if we do not over come evil, he will will lose our place in heaven. Is that it Fawzo? This God has problems bro.

[Coolhand]

You might also like to ask Jesus or Job about what can come one's way when God loves you!!!

A more theologically astute question would be to ask what Job, the servant of the Lord in Isaiah, and Jesus all have in common. But the problem with asking a question like that is that to answer that question a person must do more than misapply Scripture verses that are isolated from their context.

[Dan56]

Dan, there are many verses which can be used to refute/contradict a position. For example, Psalm 54:5, Jer 6:19, Exodus 32:14 and Micah 1:12, as pertaining to evil. How many times did God "repent of the evil...?" I do not think that any of us fully understand this anomaly or we would not be questioning it so deeply.

While I will not argue whether or not God created evil (I think He said He did), methinks evil is like good in the sense that it is existing but does not become operative until acted upon. When God created stuff, He saw that it was "good." How could it be good unless there were an alternative: bad (evil)? Satan is evil because he acts on that condition, becoming the accuser and adversary of those who love God.

But I see a danger in not discerning the relationship that seemingly contradictory verses compliment each other, or by ignoring or rejecting verses that do not fit our positions. We must not fear what we don't understand. And if we don't understand where, when or why evil came into existence (and I dont think we do), we must trust in God, regardless. It is no sin to say "I don't know."

Sometimes, God wants us to say that, lest we give way to pride and sin. Both good and evil exist but have no impact unless acted upon. We can embrace or resist either one.

Sometimes its not that 'I don't know', but rather my inability to articulate what I think. We only know from what we read, and I interpret Ezekiel 28:15 as Satan being the originator of evil and sin; "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness (evil) was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned". Did Satan's desire to rebel against God come from God? Then as Romans 9 stipulates; "As by one man sin entered into the world". Evil for us is a deviation from God's will, and it originated from free-choice, or possibly in California?

What would evil be if God created it? Adultery? Murder? Rebellion against God? Those are not things, they are behaviors freely chosen by us. Anything we do against God comes from us, not God. God did create and brought evil (bad) things upon people in the OT, but the distinction is that God uses 'evil' in the same sense that a parent spanks a misbehaving child, its a form of correction used to bring about ultimate good.

The Bible insists that God always does right, he cannot sin or commit iniquity. Where it says that God repented of the evil that he sought to bring on his people (Exodus 32:14), I believe it means that God simply with-held his wrath. God did bring evil upon those who broke his covenant (Jeremiah 11:10). God also repents from his negative judgment (evil) IF we repent from sin, and God repents of his positive judgment (blessings) when we turn to sin and fail to repent (Jeremiah 18: 5-10).

"God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world; he that believeth not hath been judged already, and this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil"(John 3:18-19).

[Pete]

I would not call it "logic" to be devoted to an impotent God that does not help you, or a sick God causes evil to befall those who He allegedly loves. You call it "logic" to say the God of the Bible is defective, and you call it "logic" to say the the Bible is defective. What makes you think that your "logic" is not the defective piece here.

Differing conclusion; ok: your logic is flawed.

I called it a logical proposal based on what we have from my understanding of a biblical perspective. You keep replying to me and Fawzo with reflective questions but you give no more proposals or further info to offset my understanding. You say that my logic is flawed and I am prepared to accept that if you can tell why so many are suffering when a so called all powerful loving God looks on and created all knowing what would happen in advance.

Give me reasons why an all powerful loving God allowed 6 million Jews to go to the death camps before it was over. I could also mention Rwanda, and Cambodia and how about Stalin's mass killings (which included Christians) and others.

My logic may be flawed but there are still questions that I believe stand, biblical or not..

[Fawzo]

Right......so He sends evil our way but tells us to over come evil, and says if we do not over come evil, he will will lose our place in heaven. Is that it Fawzo? This God has problems bro.

He sure does, and that is why I am pretty sure the Christian God does not exist as represented by the Bible.

[Fawzo]

Sometimes its not that 'I don't know', but rather my inability to articulate what I think. We only know from what we read, and I interpret Ezekiel 28:15 as Satan being the originator of evil and sin; "You were blameless in your ways from the day you were created till wickedness (evil) was found in you. Through your widespread trade you were filled with violence, and you sinned". Did Satan's desire to rebel against God come from God? Then as Romans 9 stipulates; "As by one man sin entered into the world". Evil for us is a deviation from God's will, and it originated from free-choice, or possibly in California?

What would evil be if God created it? Adultery? Murder? Rebellion against God? Those are not things, they are behaviors freely chosen by us. Anything we do against God comes from us, not God. God did create and brought evil (bad) things upon people in the OT, but the distinction is that God uses 'evil' in the same sense that a parent spanks a misbehaving child, its a form of correction used to bring about ultimate good.

The Bible insists that God always does right, he cannot sin or commit iniquity. Where it says that God repented of the evil that he sought to bring on his people (Exodus 32:14), I believe it means that God simply with-held his wrath. God did bring evil upon those who broke his covenant (Jeremiah 11:10). God also repents from his negative judgment (evil) IF we repent from sin, and God repents of his positive judgment (blessings) when we turn to sin and fail to repent (Jeremiah 18: 5-10).

"God did not send His Son into the world to judge the world; he that believeth not hath been judged already, and this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil"(John 3:18-19).

Dan, God is still the one who sets and allows the parmeters for those behaviours. Adultery would not exist if my little thingofambob would not fit into almost every hoochiekoo on the planet. If my thingie only fit into one specific hoochie that God foreknew and designed for me then adultery is not a problem. He designed neuro receptors and other genetic lock and key systems that worked in a similar manner didn't he?

God allows and sets all the parameters for the electro-chemical stimuli that creates such behaviours in our minds. I didn't have any control over their creation at my birth.

I don't think the question is so much if God is responsible, the question in my mind is why he allowed things the way they are. If he allows it, then he is responsible and he has no reason to complain or get upset.

Edited June 25, 2010 by Fawzo

[RabbiO]

I think RabbiO could enlighten us on this further though the word and story seem quite straightforward when read without modifications to fit and rationalize a belief system.

Fawzo,

Better late than never.

The verse in Judges 11:31 in Hebrew reads:

וְהָיָה, לַיהוָה, וְהַעֲלִיתִיהוּ, עֹלָה

The problem is that "v'" in Hebrew, while it most often means "and" it can mean "or".

It is therefore perfectly logical to read the text as was provided in the translation, but it can also indicate, in this case, an either or situation.

Frankly, the main view of the sages was that indeed the young lady was sacrificed. And those sages postulated that her father suffered a most horrible death for his transgression which I will not go into here since it involves rotting flesh and body parts. However, there is a substantial minority view that reads the story as the daughter having been devoted to G-d's service.

The important thing to remember, whichever view one takes, is that the inclusion of the story in the Tanakh is not an indication that the actions were approved or condoned.

Edited June 25, 2010 by RabbiO

[RabbiO]

The only way for what Pete just described not to be the case is if that ONE SOURCE was NOT OMNISCIENT or if there were a way for him to switch omiscience on and off in the same manner that some believe we choose to forget our Divinity so that we can come and experience the physicality of the natural world and duality.

In the latter case the ONE SOURCE is still culpable however.

Fawzo,

As I pointed out in some thread or other, maybe even this one, Jewish sages and philosophers have wrestled with the free will v. omniscience issue again and again. There is no consensus in Judaism, but I align myself with those sages - including Saadia Ben Joseph, the Gaon, who did not believe that G-d is omniscient in the sense of knowing with certainty what choices we will make.

[Dan56]

Dan, God is still the one who sets and allows the parmeters for those behaviours. Adultery would not exist if my little thingofambob would not fit into almost every hoochiekoo on the planet. If my thingie only fit into one specific hoochie that God foreknew and designed for me then adultery is not a problem. He designed neuro receptors and other genetic lock and key systems that worked in a similar manner didn't he?

God allows and sets all the parameters for the electro-chemical stimuli that creates such behaviours in our minds. I didn't have any control over their creation at my birth.

I don't think the question is so much if God is responsible, the question in my mind is why he allowed things the way they are. If he allows it, then he is responsible and he has no reason to complain or get upset.

If you were an animal, then I'd agree.... But God also designed the gray matter between our ears so that we could understand his parameters and the consequences for violating them. If your thingofambob only fit one hoochiekoo so that adultery couldn't exist, then I have a feeling you would be complaining about a lack of free choice. Keep in mind that God also created us with the capacity to love, so if a man loves his wife more than himself and the wife loves her husband more than herself, then adultery won't exist.

[Coolhand]

I called it a logical proposal based on what we have from my understanding of a biblical perspective. You keep replying to me and Fawzo with reflective questions but you give no more proposals or further info to offset my understanding. You say that my logic is flawed and I am prepared to accept that if you can tell why so many are suffering when a so called all powerful loving God looks on and created all knowing what would happen in advance.

Give me reasons why an all powerful loving God allowed 6 million Jews to go to the death camps before it was over. I could also mention Rwanda, and Cambodia and how about Stalin's mass killings (which included Christians) and others.

My logic may be flawed but there are still questions that I believe stand, biblical or not..

I have explained to you in the past that your biblical perspective is flawed. I have recommend two books to you to help you with that: "Reading the Bible for all its Worth" by Fee and Stuart, and "Biblical Interpretation: Playing by the Rules" by Stein. You refused to read them at the time, and by the way you are currently handling Scripture, I can see you have still ignored that advice. So, being you refuse to approach the Bible correctly-by understanding context, genre, and theme- arguing Scripture with you would be useless. So, "reflective" questioning that is targeting invalid conclusions is the only way to address the issue with you.

I agree with you that the deaths that you cited are tragic. I would argue that these deaths are not the result of an unjust God being negligent or wicked, but rather that it is an issue of sovereignty and purpose. The Bible tells us that an archangel rebelled and had a following of rebels. The Bible tells us that these beings had authority and dominion over geographical areas and that their power and authority is fueled, it grows, and gains momentum when people join in their rebellion against God. God gave these rebels authority and they still have that authority; the Bible also tells us that the gifts of God are irrevocable. Where it has been said that either God is not in control, or does not have power over all, or is twisted and enjoys torment by not preventing it, God is merely respecting the sovereignty of the beings to which he has granted it; just like he respects yours and mine. Now, these rebels can be defeated, and God will fight against them and defeat these rebels on behalf of those who side with God and against the rebels. The rejection of God, the pursuit of idolatry, and a syncretistic commitment to God by a person or group of people will not get God to fight the rebels that are causing the genocide you are referring to; the “installed” authorities will prevail. Total and exclusive commitment to God will ensure that He will fight and overcome the rebels and grant wisdom to understand His Word.

It’s all in the Bible.